For free will believers out there

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
And so by you are saying that Jesus pre-existed. By your line of reasoning that would have all else who were in the mind of God as having pre-existed as well, which of course that is not true.

Question, did God KNOW Jeremiah personally before he was conceived or did God only say that?...


5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Could God do the same for His human son?

I already answered that.

Now, are you suggesting that Jeremiah pre-existed during that transcendent experience of God with him?

Tong
R2462

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That isn’t proof or evidence of lost of meaning. It’s only what you take it to be.

So, why KJV and not the translations prior to it?

Because the KJV was made via an election process(around 50 translators)

Many minds voting on translational words rather than one man's opinion.

So you take KJV as the correct translation of the Bible over the others because of that. I see your reason now.

May I ask, from where have they translated from?

Tong
R2463

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
You think God made a man and dwelled in that man, and have other men and the angels worship that man?

Have you considered scriptures saying Jesus is King of Israel and is the first and the last? Do you believe that?

Well, aside from the worship part, yes.

That the Spirit of God dwells in me is different from whom occupies civil or religious authority. Consider Galatians 5:22.

<<<Well, aside from the worship part, yes.>>>

Please be more clear. What is it in my post that you say “yes”?

It seems that every one in this thread who do not believe that Jesus is God evades the truth that Jesus is King of Israel and is the first and the last. Have you not noticed that? Such as @BARNEY BRIGHT and @Truther.

<<<Consider Galatians 5:22.>>>

What does that have to do with what I posted? Please explain.

Tong
R2464

 

[Wrangler]

Because the KJV was made via an election process(around 50 translators)

Many minds voting on translational words rather than one man's opinion.

Most translations are made by a team. The NSRV that my wife got for Christmas had one editor for each of the 66 books + an overall OT and another overall for NT.

I have a lot of respect for people who
Undertake the translation process. In the case of the CEV, the target audience is 8th grade reading level and is a thought translation. In the case of NSRV, the lean more toward academic, word for word.

I deeply admire and appreciate the nuanced differences among the many excellent English translations.

 

[Wrangler]

It seems that every one in this thread who do not believe that Jesus is God evades the truth that Jesus is King of Israel and is the first and the last. Have you not noticed that? Such as @BARNEY BRIGHT and @Truther.

Well, in another thread I posted a whole video on point. I’ll look for it when I have time.

While the Good News is that Jesus, a man like us was resurrected in a redeemed or glorified body and that awaits all believers, he is also our lowercase Lord.

But he is only the first and last of the redeemed creation, not creation of Genesis by the LORD God.

I have no problem with Jesus being the King of Israel, etc and don’t know what you find evasive about the responses you’ve gotten.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
It seems that every one in this thread who do not believe that Jesus is God evades the truth that Jesus is King of Israel and is the first and the last. Have you not noticed that? Such as @BARNEY BRIGHT and @Truther.

Well, in another thread I posted a whole video on point. I’ll look for it when I have time.

While the Good News is that Jesus, a man like us was resurrected in a redeemed or glorified body and that awaits all believers, he is also our lowercase Lord.

But he is only the first and last of the redeemed creation, not creation of Genesis by the LORD God.

I have no problem with Jesus being the King of Israel, etc and don’t know what you find evasive about the responses you’ve gotten.

My question is simple, do you believe that Jesus is the King of Israel and is the first and the last, as taught in scriptures?

<<<But he is only the first and last of the redeemed creation, not creation of Genesis by the LORD God.>>>

Scriptures does not say that.

<<<I have no problem with Jesus being the King of Israel,>>>>

If you believe Jesus is the King of Israel, do you know that scriptures says the King of Israel is the LORD? That is the problem of those who believes that Jesus is not God.

Tong
R2465

 

[Wrangler]

My question is simple, do you believe that Jesus is the King of Israel and is the first and the last, as taught in scriptures?

I already answered that question.

“as taught in scriptures” is not the trinitarian take on the all Jewish unitarian text. And that is the problem with trinitarianism.

 

[Cooper]

True.:)

FYI, an incarnationist believes in God incarnating into a human.

I used to think God became a man and taught it openly. Not so sure anymore. I now think God made a man and dwelled(s) in the man He made.

Remember all things were made by the the Word (John chapter 1) and all things were made by him. We are then told the Word, who is Spirit, became flesh and dwelt among us, "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (Colossians 2:9) and they called his name Jesus. One God in heaven and on earth.

This was God's plan of salvation, and for that I will turn the Gleason Archer who explains it better than I can:-

"God had to become one of us in order to redeem us from the guilt and penalty of our sin. And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth’ ‘(John 1:14).

God as God could not forgive us for our sins unless our sins were fully paid for; otherwise He would have been a condoner and protector of the violation of His own holy law. It was only as a man, that God in Christ could furnish satisfaction sufficient to atone for the sins of mankind; for only a man, a true human being, could properly represent the human race. But at the same time our Redeemer had to be God, for only God could furnish a sacrifice of infinite value, to compensate for the penalty of eternal hell that our sin demands, according to the righteous claims of divine justice. Only God could have devised a way of salvation that made it possible for Him to remain Just and at the same time become the Justifier of the ungodly and instead of sending them to the everlasting perdition they deserved it was the perfect Man who was also infinite God that furnished an effectual sacrifice for all believers of every age." (Gleason Archer)

Footnote:
The perfect Man who is also the infinite Spirit we call God the Father are :- Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They are One. (This is the One Triune God.)
.

 

[Tong2020]

@ Wrangler

So you believe that Jesus is the King of Israel.
Do you believe that the King of Israel is the LORD?

Tong
R2466

 

[Wrangler]

@ Wrangler

So you believe that Jesus is the King of Israel.
Do you believe that the King of Israel is the LORD?

Tong
R2466

I’ve already answered this twice and not sure why you are stuck on this apparent trap. What verses are you relying on in asking this question?

I see you just summarily ignore the trinitarian problem that the entire Bible is written by unitarian Jews who reject the trinity to this day.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
@ Wrangler

So you believe that Jesus is the King of Israel.
Do you believe that the King of Israel is the LORD?

I’ve already answered this twice and not sure why you are stuck on this apparent trap. What verses are you relying on in asking this question?

I see you just summarily ignore the trinitarian problem that the entire Bible is written by unitarian Jews who reject the trinity to this day.

We are not talking about trinitarians. We are talking specifically about the truth that Jesus is the King of Israel and is the first and the last, and that the King of Israel is the LORD. Whether you believe that or not.

If you believe that Jesus is the King of Israel and God is the King of Israel, what does that tell you about Jesus? Is that clearly telling you that Jesus is the LORD?

Tong
R2467

 

[Wrangler]

We are not talking about trinitarians.

Yes, we are as trinitarianism includes the man-is-god thesis. The entire Bible is written by unitarian Jews who reject the man-is-god thesis to this day.

What verses are you relying on in asking this question?

Supposing any verse supports anything but one God, the Father alone, it is wrong, imposing a trinitarian doctrine onto unitarian text.

 

[Cooper]

We are not talking about trinitarians. We are talking specifically about the truth that Jesus is the King of Israel and is the first and the last, and that the King of Israel is the LORD. Whether you believe that or not.

If you believe that Jesus is the King of Israel and God is the King of Israel, what does that tell you about Jesus? Is that clearly telling you that Jesus is the LORD?

Tong
R2467

Just to confirm:
God, the ONE GOD came to the Jews in the form of man. This is the one God with us.
.

 

[Cooper]

Yes, we are as trinitarianism includes the man-is-god thesis. The entire Bible is written by unitarian Jews who reject the man-is-god thesis to this day.



Supposing any verse supports anything but one God, the Father alone, it is wrong, imposing a trinitarian doctrine onto unitarian text.

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(Isaiah 9:6)
.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
We are not talking about trinitarians.

Yes, we are as trinitarianism includes the man-is-god thesis. The entire Bible is written by unitarian Jews who reject the man-is-god thesis to this day.

I disagree. While what we are talking about is connected to the Trinity of God, Trinitarianism is different from the issue that we are discussing, which specifically is about the truth that Jesus is the King of Israel and that the King of Israel is the LORD.

<<<The entire Bible is written by unitarian Jews who reject the man-is-god thesis to this day.>>>

Here’s what one of those writers you mentioned had written, the truth that Jesus is the King of Israel. Another one wrote that Jesus is the first and the last. Another writer write that the King of Israel is the LORD and is the first and the last.

Supposing any verse supports anything but one God, the Father alone, it is wrong, imposing a trinitarian doctrine onto unitarian text.

Scriptures does say that there is but one God, not two, not three, not many. Needless to say, that I believe that.

You may take the text as a unitarian text. However that does not nullify any scriptures that teaches that Jesus is the King of Israel and that He is the first and the last, and scriptures that teaches that the King of Israel is the LORD and also that the LORD is first and the last .

Tong
R2468

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
We are not talking about trinitarians. We are talking specifically about the truth that Jesus is the King of Israel and is the first and the last, and that the King of Israel is the LORD. Whether you believe that or not.

If you believe that Jesus is the King of Israel and God is the King of Israel, what does that tell you about Jesus? Is that clearly telling you that Jesus is the LORD?

Just to confirm:
God, the ONE GOD came to the Jews in the form of man. This is the one God with us.
.

In other words Jesus is God. The Word, who was God, became flesh (man) ~ Jesus Christ.

Tong
R2469

 

[Cooper]

In other words Jesus is God. The Word, who was God, became flesh (man) ~ Jesus Christ.

Tong
R2469

Jesus, God and the Word are One.
.

 

[Wrangler]

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
(Isaiah 9:6)
.

Why Isaiah 7:14 Is Not A Prophecy of Jesus’ Virgin Birth

 

[Wrangler]

You may take the text as a unitarian text. However that does not nullify any scriptures that teaches that Jesus is the King of Israel and that He is the first and the last, and scriptures that teaches that the King of Israel is the LORD and also that the LORD is first and the last .

I've noticed you never quite provide the Scriptures you are relying on regarding the King of Israel kick you are on today.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
You may take the text as a unitarian text. However that does not nullify any scriptures that teaches that Jesus is the King of Israel and that He is the first and the last, and scriptures that teaches that the King of Israel is the LORD and also that the LORD is first and the last .

I've noticed you never quite provide the Scriptures you are relying on regarding the King of Israel kick you are on today.

Oh sorry about that. Perhaps it’s because I had posted them repeated in this thread already (posts #706, 730, 845).

Anyway, let me quote them here for you.

Isaiah 44:6“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel,
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last;
Besides Me there is no God.

John 1:49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”

Revelation 1:17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last.

Tong
R2470