Once Saved Always Saved

[Michiah-Imla]

why are you refusing to answer my question?

once again, what is the difference between a man who has 5 works and a man who has 1000 works at the bema judgment (1 cor 3)

Because your question is based on a premise I do not subscribe to. We can just disagree. That’s okay too.

 

[Taken]

You said: "Jesus Offered His giving to All men."

FALSE! He gave (not offered) Himself only to His people (Matthew 1:21).

You said: "You have nothing to Do with His Act of Giving."

Surely I have everything to do with His Act of GIVING! (Psalms 79:9).

You said: "You can Act, and Accept His Offer, or not."

Don't know what Bible you are reading but mine declares, "there's None righteous No, Not One; there's NONE that SEEKS after God." Romans 3:10-11

To God Be The Glory

You can go round and round and disagree as you please.

Jesus Gave his Flesh Body for ALL.
Done deal, works of Jesus.
Jesus Offered ALL men to Accept His Offering of His Flesh Body.
Done deal, works of Jesus.

Any man can Accept Jesus' Offering and Receive the Gifts Jesus has FOR THE MAN, WHO accepted Jesus' Offering....

And Any man can REJECT Jesus' Offering and Lose having the Gifts.

Not a big mystery.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No, the cut down tree is cast into the fire of hell. John the Baptist declared:

Luke 3
[8] Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
[9] And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: every tree therefore which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Yes,

John the Baptist spoke or religious pharisee, he demanded they have proof they were redeemed before he would baptise them.

to use the suggest salvation can be lost is out of context

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Because your question is based on a premise I do not subscribe to. We can just disagree. That’s okay too.

That’s what I thought.

it’s not a premis it’s fact

in 1 cor one man had little if any work, his reward was burnt, he had nothing left but ash, yet he was saved even as through fire.

the one who had 1000 works had some gold silver or precious stone to show for it

they were both saved

good day.

 

[BreadOfLife]

First off... Hebrews 10:26 is talking about forsaking the assembling. People hate that, but there is a reason people quote the 26th verse but omit the 25th verse.

Second, just because you were a partaker of the Holy Spirit and exposed to the truth it doesn't mean you are a Child of God. It means you were called, but not chosen.

Here are some verses that if you don't believe in predestination, you may have problems with:

1 John 2:19 KJV
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

Matthew 7:23 KJV
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Third, while predestination does exist, and God not only knows his sheep but has predetermined it, it doesn't help us. God tells us the signs, what to look for, how to be... But he doesn't tell us if we will make it. So we still have to go through life without knowing and contending for the faith. He knows who will get the diploma, but he doesn't tell us nor does he give it early.

Believe me - te LAST thing I want to do is to get into yet another argument about the unbiblical doctrine of OSAS.
HOWEVER, I must take issue with what you said here.

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the LOSS of our salvation. The Greek word for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida/gnosis). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosis). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Believe me - te LAST thing I want to do is to get into yet another argument about the unbiblical doctrine of OSAS.
HOWEVER, I must take issue with what you said here.

Hebrews 10:26-27
“If we sin deliberately AFTER receiving KNOWLEDGE of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.”

This is a clear warning that falling away from God will result in the LOSS of our salvation. The Greek word for “knowledge” used here is NOT the usual word (oida/gnosis). This is talking about a full, experiential knowledge (epignosis). This verse is about CHRISTIANS who had an EPIGNOSIS of Christ and who can fall back into darkness and LOSE their salvation by their own doing.

1.it’s says they recieved the knowledge of truth, not that they accepted and were born again.

2.willful sin, so you sin by accident?

 

[Michiah-Imla]

That’s what I thought.

Be nice, EG.

it’s not a premis it’s fact

in 1 cor one man had little if any work, his reward was burnt, he had nothing left but ash, yet he was saved even as through fire.

The scriptures used to promote a “rewards” judgment is 1 Corinthians 3:7-15. Upon reading these passages of scripture one has to wonder how this “rewards judgment” is extrapolated from these passages. The passages are about ministry in preaching the gospel, not about believers conduct in the gospel.

From the start it identifies who is referred to concerning these rewards: its ministers, not the flock:

1 Corinthians 3:5
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

And it speaks of these ministers receiving a reward for their labor:

1 Corinthians 3:8
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

The reward will be for how their husbandry (converts) are taught or built up in the gospel by them:

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:12-13
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

And if the converts of the minister are lost because of bad ministry in Christ, they will be lost and the minister will lose his rewards for such a loss, but he himself shall be saved:

1 Corinthians 3:14-15
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved/Eternal Security need these passages to mean something else to strengthen it.

 

[BreadOfLife]

1.it’s says they recieved the knowledge of truth, not that they accepted and were born again.

2.willful sin, so you sin by accident?

Sorry - but the NT wasn't written in 21st century English.
It was writen in 1st century Koine Greek - and you simply cannot get around the linguistic facts regarding the workd "Epignosis".

BOTH the author of Hebrews and Peter could have used TWO other words (oida/gnosis) for the kind of "knowledge" thta you're talking about.
They didn't - they chose to use "Epignosis" because that's what they meant.

Here are some well-respected Protestant scholars on the subject:
Richard Chenevix Trench
“In comparing epignosis with gnosis, the “epi” must be regarded as an intensive use of a preposition that gives the compound word a greater strength than the simple word alone possesses”
(Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

Quoting Culverwell, he writes, “Epignosis and gnosis differ. Epignosis is the complete comprehension after the first knowledge (gnosin) of a matter. It is bringing me better acquainted with a thing I knew before; a more exact viewing of an object that I saw before afar off. That little portion of knowledge which we had here shall be much improved, our eye shall be raised to see the things more strongly and clearly”
(Synonyms of the New Testament, page 300).

He goes on to say on the same page, “All Paul’s uses of epignosis justify and bear out this distinction. This same intensive use of epignosis is confirmed by similar passages in the New Testament and in the Septuagint. It also was recognized by the Greek fathers. Thus Chrysostom stated: ‘You knew (egnote), but it is necessary to know thoroughly (epignonai).”

J.B. Lightfoot
“The compound epignosis is an advance upon gnosis, denoting a larger and more thorough knowledge... Hence also epignosis is used especially of the knowledge of God and of Christ, as being the perfection of knowledge” (St. Paul’s Epistles to the Colossians and Philemon, page 138).

Vine's Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words
“epignosis, akin to A, No. 3, denotes "exact or full knowledge, discernment, recognition,"

The New Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon (page 237):
1. Precise and correct knowledge
2. Knowledge of things ethical and divine
3. Of God, especially knowledge of His holy will and of the blessings which He has bestowed and constantly bestows on men through Christ
4. Of Christ, i.e., the true knowledge of Christ’s nature, dignity, benefits
5. Of God and Christ, i.e., to keep the knowledge of the one true God which has illumined the soul

Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, volume 2, page 25:
1. Knowledge as recognition of the will of God that is effective in the conduct of the one who KNOWS God
2. Christian faith

 

[BreadOfLife]

2.willful sin, so you sin by accident?

No.
Living a LIFE of wilful sin is NOT the same as a Christian striving to be pure and stumbling.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Be nice, EG.

Me be nice? Your the one who refused to answer my question. That’s rude,

The scriptures used to promote a “rewards” judgment is 1 Corinthians 3:7-15. Upon reading these passages of scripture one has to wonder how this “rewards judgment” is extrapolated from these passages. The passages are about ministry in preaching the gospel, not about believers conduct in the gospel.

From the start it identifies who is referred to concerning these rewards: its ministers, not the flock:

1 Corinthians 3:5
Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?

And it speaks of these ministers receiving a reward for their labor:

1 Corinthians 3:8
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

The reward will be for how their husbandry (converts) are taught or built up in the gospel by them:

1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

1 Corinthians 3:12-13
Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; [13] Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

And if the converts of the minister are lost because of bad ministry in Christ, they will be lost and the minister will lose his rewards for such a loss, but he himself shall be saved:

1 Corinthians 3:14-15
[14] If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. [15] If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

The doctrine of Once Saved Always Saved/Eternal Security need these passages to mean something else to strengthen it.

1. Salvation is a gift, not a reward
2. Paul spoke of our wrks being judged, works are works., the one example had nothing to show, it like he was leaving a burning house and he had nothing to show for it, yet he was still saved.
3. We do not need to do anything but interpret it and Rev 19 as they are written. And we have so many more passages which have the same view about those saved being resurrected not delivered.the NOSAS crowd if anything has to throw out half the word.

Once again, don’t ask me to be nice if your gonna be this way, practice what you preach

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No.
Living a LIFE of wilful sin is NOT the same as a Christian striving to be pure and stumbling.

A child of god can’t live a life of willfull sin,

whoever sins has never seen or known god, whoever is born of god can’t sin.

Heb is talking about rejecting the gospel willfully after hearing it Not living a life of sin.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Me be nice? Your the one who refused to answer my question. That’s rude,

don’t ask me to be nice if your gonna be this way, practice what you preach

Pardon me, but did you miss post #321?

I politely said the following:

Because your question is based on a premise I do not subscribe to. We can just disagree. That’s okay too.

You think I was being rude?

Ok man, I don’t know why all the hostility on your part but I hold to ill will towards you.

 

[kcnalp]

you don't understand John 14:16, that's all.

let me ask you a question. Why do you need a comforter? and a mediator? and a intercessor? for you? why?

is it because you're so GOOD, and Rightious?. thought so.

But I do understand. I read the Bible that you reject. Jesus is the Son of God and His Father is God the Father.

 

[kcnalp]

A child of god can’t live a life of willfull sin,

whoever sins has never seen or known god, whoever is born of god can’t sin.

Heb is talking about rejecting the gospel willfully after hearing it Not living a life of sin.

You can't sin???

 

[BreadOfLife]

A child of god can’t live a life of willfull sin,

whoever sins has never seen or known god, whoever is born of god can’t sin.

Heb is talking about rejecting the gospel willfully after hearing it Not living a life of sin.

No - it's talking about born again believers who have an EPIGNOSIS of Christ rejecting the Word and falling back into darkness.
ONLY a born again believer can have an "Epignosis" of Christ, which is a full, experiential and relational knowledge. It is NOT simply an intellectual knowledge. ALL bornagain believers have an Epignosis of Christ. NOBODY else on earth does

Let me give you an example: My wife and I have an full, experiential and relational of one another. Being married for 30+ years - I have experienced her in every way to the point that I almost know her next thought.
That s epignosis.

I also know my neighbor's wife - but I will never know her fully and experientially as I do my wife.
That is gnosis or poida.

As to your point above in RED - you are correct.
But a fallen-away believer who has become apostate is no longer a child of God - by his OWN doling (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)


.

 

[101G]

But I do understand. I read the Bible that you reject. Jesus is the Son of God and His Father is God the Father.

well then why do we need a "COMFORTER?"... called the ..... "HELPER". .... who is our "Intercessor" well?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Pardon me, but did you miss post #321?

I politely said the following:



You think I was being rude?

Ok man, I don’t know why all the hostility on your part but I hold to ill will towards you.

Yes, that was rude.

if you asked me a question, I would not do that to you,

it as much as suggests I am trying to be decisive by asking a question to make you look bad,

I just asked a question which could be easily confirmed in the passage I gave.

you have yet to explain how a person could stand in front of God with no reward and still be saved.

Or how a person who was dead and was made alive were delivered to Christ for eternal judgement t

 

[kcnalp]

well then why do we need a "COMFORTER?"... called the ..... "HELPER". .... who is our "Intercessor" well?

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

Why do you reject Jesus the Son of God and God the Father?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No - it's talking about born again believers who have an EPIGNOSIS of Christ rejecting the Word and falling back into darkness.
ONLY a born again believer can have an "Epignosis" of Christ, which is a full, experiential and relational knowledge. It is NOT simply an intellectual knowledge. ALL bornagain believers have an Epignosis of Christ. NOBODY else on earth does

Let me give you an example: My wife and I have an full, experiential and relational of one another. Being married for 30+ years - I have experienced her in every way to the point that I almost know her next thought.
That s epignosis.

I also know my neighbor's wife - but I will never know her fully and experientially as I do my wife.
That is gnosis or poida.

As to your point above in RED - you are correct.
But a fallen-away believer who has become apostate is no longer a child of God - by his OWN doling (Matt. 7:19-23, Matt. 10:22, Matt. 24:13, Matt. 25:31–46, John 15:1-6, Rom. 11:22, 1 Cor. 4:4, 1 Cor. 9:27, 1 Cor. 10:12, 1 Tim. 4:1, 1 Tim. 4:16, 2 Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6, Heb. 3:12-14, Heb 6:4-6, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-21, 2 Pet. 3:17, 1 John 2:24, 1 John 5:13, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19)


.

John said one who sins has never known God

I must chose to follow in context with what John said, and know these sinners have never known God

Otherwise I have the author of hebrews and John contradicting each other

 

[BreadOfLife]

John said one who sins has never known God
I must chose to follow in context with what John said, and know these sinners have never known God
Otherwise I have the author of hebrews and John contradicting each other

No - YOU need to read John and ALL of the others in their proper context.

Scripture does not contradict itself.
ALL Scripture harmonizes - but you cherry-pick and divorce one or two verses from the rest of Scripture.