For free will believers out there

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Just as I said you will just insist because you have no scriptures to show.

Regarding the rest of your post, it seems you have your eyes on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil but do not seem to see the tree of life which is also where the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, in the midst of the garden of Eden. And they were obviously allowed to eat of the tree of life for they were only told of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil not to eat. Tell us, according to your scriptures, what would happen of they ate of the tree of life? Is it not that they will get to live forever? In other words, they will have everlasting life. What does that tell you then?

<<<God told Adam that only if he ate of the forbidden fruit he would die.>>>

This statement has truth but also has lies. The lie is on the word “only” and the lack of the word “surely”. What God told Adam is without the “only” and with the word “surely”. That if he ate of the forbidden fruit, he would surely die, is what God said to him.

There is only one command God gave Adam that if he disobeyed he would die which is at Genesis 2:17 God said to Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil because if he did he would die. So I can see from the scriptures that the only reason death is in existence concerning the human race is that Adam disobeyed that command. If he hadn't eaten of the fruit of that forbidden tree Adam nor his offspring would be dying. The human race would be living on a paradise Earth.
But Adam did disobey the command regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil so he did loose eternal life for himself and his offspring. The reason humans die is because of the sin of Adam. Also if you remember at Genesis 3:22 God expelled or sent them out of the Garden of Eden so that they couldn't also partake of the tree of life and live forever. So yes Adam lost his eternal life for himself and his offspring.

All I can see, all you have to show me to support what you teach that Adam had eternal life and just lost it when he ate of the forbidden fruit, is your reasoning, but have no scriptures to show. However, if your reasoning is correct regarding that, such reasoning must of necessity be correct regarding the tree of life.

<<<If he hadn't eaten of the fruit of that forbidden tree Adam>>>

Here’s another hypothetical: If Adam had eaten of tree of life instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would have what? That’s right, they could have eternal life. It means, Adam was not created with eternal life.

Tong
R2276

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

All I can see, all you have to show me to support what you teach that Adam had eternal life and just lost it when he ate of the forbidden fruit, is your reasoning, but have no scriptures to show. However, if your reasoning is correct regarding that, such reasoning must of necessity be correct regarding the tree of life.

<<<If he hadn't eaten of the fruit of that forbidden tree Adam>>>

Here’s another hypothetical: If Adam had eaten of tree of life instead of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they would have what? That’s right, they could have eternal life. It means, Adam was not created with eternal life.

Tong
R2276

Ok what does Genesis 2:17 mean then? It seems to me that God gave Adam a command that God wanted him to obey. Which means it wasn't Gods will that Adam die. Which obviously means death wasn't something that God wanted to happen, doesn't it? Which means Adam was capable of obeying that command that God gave Adam concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, right? Just because Adam disobeyed that command doesn't mean it was impossible for Adam to obey it, right?
So isn't it very reasonable to see that God wanted Adam to not die but live forever on Earth?
I'll continue reasoning on the scriptures that Adam lost his eternal life for himself and his offspring because he did.

 

[Tong2020]

Ok what does Genesis 2:17 mean then? It seems to me that God gave Adam a command that God wanted him to obey. Which means it wasn't Gods will that Adam die. Which obviously means death wasn't something that God wanted to happen, doesn't it? Which means Adam was capable of obeying that command that God gave Adam concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, right? Just because Adam disobeyed that command doesn't mean it was impossible for Adam to obey it, right?
So isn't it very reasonable to see that God wanted Adam to not die but live forever on Earth?
I'll continue reasoning on the scriptures that Adam lost his eternal life for himself and his offspring because he did.

<<<Ok what does Genesis 2:17 mean then?>>>

Since you only seem to believe in your Bible, let me quote Gen.2:17 NWT:

“But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die.”

I don’t see any problem in what it says. It means what it plainly says. It is a command by God to Adam to not eat of the said tree. The reason being is that, he will certainly die in the day he eat of it.

<<<It seems to me that God gave Adam a command that God wanted him to obey. Which means it wasn't Gods will that Adam die. >>>

Of course God wanted for Adam to obey what He commanded him in Gen.2:17. And of course God does not want Adam to die.

<<<Which obviously means death wasn't something that God wanted to happen, doesn't it?>>>

Not quite and not really what is obviously significant with regards the subject issue of this exchanges. What is relevantly significantly obvious is that Adam is not immortal, having no eternal life, the fact that he will die if he eats of the said tree.

<<<Which means Adam was capable of obeying that command that God gave Adam concerning the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, right?>>>

A non issue in this exchanges.

<<<So isn't it very reasonable to see that God wanted Adam to not die but live forever on Earth?>>>

Of course God wanted for Adam to live forever. We can see that not only by the commandment He gave Adam in Gen.2:17, but see even more clearly in that God had not forbidden Adam to eat of the tree of life, where if he who eats of it, he will live forever.

Does all that not tell you very clearly that Adam was not created having eternal life? Well you don’t apparently see that and I guess you won’t see that.

<<< I'll continue reasoning on the scriptures that Adam lost his eternal life for himself and his offspring because he did.>>>

If you want to continue teaching something that you have no scriptures to show that teaches that, but only based on your reasoning and thinking, and that had been effectively refuted, that’s on you and will be responsible for it. While that’s your choice to make and is your right to do, I would like to express here that I strongly am against it for obvious reasons.

Tong
R2278

 

[Stumpmaster]

<<<God's foreknowledge of this choice is the causation of their being ordained to eternal life.>>>

Come to think about that, if that were the case, that God’s foreknowledge is the basis for their being ordained or appointed to eternal life, what is God’s purpose in doing that, when what God see in their future that they will believe even without that?

Tong
R2224

What?

In eternity God always knows everything that is knowable. From our perspective, God has always known whomever will believe in His only begotten Son.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<God's foreknowledge of this choice is the causation of their being ordained to eternal life.>>>

Come to think about that, if that were the case, that God’s foreknowledge is the basis for their being ordained or appointed to eternal life, what is God’s purpose in doing that, when what God see in their future that they will believe even without that?

What?

In eternity God always knows everything that is knowable. From our perspective, God has always known whomever will believe in His only begotten Son.

Yes, no one is denying that God is omniscient and knows everything, past, present, future, even in eternity.

You reacted “what?”.

Since you did not seem to get my point, let me try to spell it out here. The point is that, if foreknowledge is all that is the basis of God’s election of people and ordaining and appointing them to eternal life, it is a redundant and useless exercise of God. So I asked, and perhaps you or anyone for that matter, could tell me what is God’s purpose in appointing them to eternal life, when in His foreknowledge knew in their future that they will believe in Him and in Jesus Christ? When the future that He foresee and foreknow is that which will certainly happen? Think about that. Do you think God does something devoid of purpose and something senseless and useless as that? I don’t think so.

<<<From our perspective, God has always known whomever will believe in His only begotten Son.>>>

I have no objection or disagreement on that. However, to say that God, on the basis of His foreknowledge of people’s choices in the future, have appointed people whom he saw in the future will believe in him and in Jesus Christ, unto eternal life, is a different matter. That is what I am arguing against. I argue against that, not mainly by its absurdity, but because there is no scriptures that teaches it. While Peter said the Christians are elect according to the foreknowledge of God, there is no scriptures that tells us what that foreknowledge that is, that it is the foreknowledge of the positive choice of believing in Him.

Tong
R2280

 

[Stumpmaster]

So I asked, and perhaps you or anyone for that matter, could tell me what is God’s purpose in appointing them to eternal life, when in His foreknowledge knew in their future that they will believe in Him and in Jesus Christ? When the future that He foresee and foreknow is that which will certainly happen? Think about that. Do you think God does something devoid of purpose and something senseless and useless as that? I don’t think so.

I stopped reading you when it became obvious you are pushing a strawman fallacy.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So I asked, and perhaps you or anyone for that matter, could tell me what is God’s purpose in appointing them to eternal life, when in His foreknowledge knew in their future that they will believe in Him and in Jesus Christ? When the future that He foresee and foreknow is that which will certainly happen? Think about that. Do you think God does something devoid of purpose and something senseless and useless as that? I don’t think so.

I stopped reading you when it became obvious you are pushing a strawman fallacy.

Obvious? Straw man fallacy? What are you talking about?

Get a lot of that sort of excuse from other forums when they want to dismiss the questions ask of them, the correct answer of which they know will go against what they hold to be true. Sometimes they resort to such when they can’t agree in what they read but at the same can’t refute it.

Tong
R2281

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

BARNEY said:
Which obviously means death wasn't something that God wanted to happen, doesn't it?[/Quote\]

Tong 2020 said:
Not quite and not really what is obviously significant with regards the subject issue of this exchanges. What is relevantly significantly obvious is that Adam is not immortal, having no eternal life, the fact that he will die if he eats of the said tree.[/Quote\]

I agree that Adam isn't or wasn't created immortal, but immortality and eternal life are not the same thing. Immortality means beyond death, something that only God has and those he has chosen to give immortality to.
Now the scriptures at Genesis 2:16,17 show us that for Adam to continue to live was conditional. That condition being Adam continued to be obedient when it came to Gods rulership. God knows what is good for what he created and what is bad for what he created therefore being obedient to him is exercising loving faith in his rulership. So as long as Adam was obedient he would continue to live and not die. Now we know that Adam lost out on living forever because he wasn't obedient, he didn't continue to exercise faith in God's rulership. That doesn't mean Adam wasn't capable of exercising faith in God's rulership he simply chose to listen to his wife voice and eat of the forbidden fruit.
The point is, both Adam and Eve made a choice, it was the wrong choice but they made a choice. Isn't that freewill, being able to make a choice of either being obedient or disobedient?

 

[Tong2020]

BARNEY said:
Which obviously means death wasn't something that God wanted to happen, doesn't it?[/Quote\]

Tong 2020 said:
Not quite and not really what is obviously significant with regards the subject issue of this exchanges. What is relevantly significantly obvious is that Adam is not immortal, having no eternal life, the fact that he will die if he eats of the said tree.[/Quote\]

I agree that Adam isn't or wasn't created immortal, but immortality and eternal life are not the same thing. Immortality means beyond death, something that only God has and those he has chosen to give immortality to.
Now the scriptures at Genesis 2:16,17 show us that for Adam to continue to live was conditional. That condition being Adam continued to be obedient when it came to Gods rulership. God knows what is good for what he created and what is bad for what he created therefore being obedient to him is exercising loving faith in his rulership. So as long as Adam was obedient he would continue to live and not die. Now we know that Adam lost out on living forever because he wasn't obedient, he didn't continue to exercise faith in God's rulership. That doesn't mean Adam wasn't capable of exercising faith in God's rulership he simply chose to listen to his wife voice and eat of the forbidden fruit.
The point is, both Adam and Eve made a choice, it was the wrong choice but they made a choice. Isn't that freewill, being able to make a choice of either being obedient or disobedient?

What I was saying in other words is that Adam was not created immortal and also not with eternal life, as I have shown in scriptures, which refutes your teaching that Adam was created having eternal life and lost it when he sinned having eaten of the forbidden tree.

So much with that, as you apparently do have any counter refutation of it. So on to the other issues you bring up here.

<<< Now the scriptures at Genesis 2:16,17 show us that for Adam to continue to live was conditional.>>>

Gen. 2:16-17 was not really a condition for Adam to continue to live. It was a simple commandment that God gave him to obey, warning him of what the eating of the said tree would bring upon him. What we learn from there is that God loves him and cares for his life. God gave him all the other trees whose fruit yields seed and every herbs that yields seed for food to enjoy and nourish his mortal body of flesh and keep it healthy and stay alive in the flesh. Now we also learn that God gave him the tree of life. What we know of this tree is that it was not forbidden of Adam to eat of and was made accessible to him in the midst of the garden of Eden.

The commandment also serve as some sort of a simple test on him, if he will stay faithful and obedient to God or not.

<<<The point is, both Adam and Eve made a choice, it was the wrong choice but they made a choice. Isn't that freewill, being able to make a choice of either being obedient or disobedient?>>>

Yes, came a day that Eve made a different choice for the first time, the choice to listen to the voice of another other than her husband Adam, a choice she made under deception. Adam also on that day made a different choice, the choice of listening to another voice other than God’s, that of his then sinful wife Eve, a choice he willfully made that offended God.

Is that free will? Yes it was. But before that, he also exercised his will freely in the choices he made day by day, until the day he made a choice concerning the eating of the forbidden tree.

Tong
R2282

 

[Truther]

So do you serve and worship the man Christ Jesus that your almighty fully indwells now? A clear yes or no will be appreciated. Unless you don’t want to be clear.

Do you honor the man Christ Jesus as you honor your almighty God? A clear yes or no will be appreciated. Unless you don’t want to be clear.

By the way, it seems you now deny that your almighty God made the man Christ Jesus to be God afterwards. Do you deny that now??A clear yes or no will be appreciated. Unless you don’t want to be clear.

Tong
R2270

To be exact.

I worship God almighty through the man Christ Jesus.

This(Col 2:9) qualifies the man Christ Jesus to be God almighty by default.

I cannot ever tell the man Christ Jesus, "stay out of this, I am worshipping your Father this time", etc.

No man can access God but THROUGH Jesus.

When I say "through" I mean exactly that...God is completely encapsulated in the man Christ Jesus, so Jesus first had to be made upon resurrection, an omnipresent quickening spirit for his God to fit inside him, bodily.

Paul got a glimpse of this new "light body" of Jesus in Acts 9.

You must stop thinking of the body of Jesus being a small human body like ours.(He can now appear simultaneously, everywhere).

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So do you serve and worship the man Christ Jesus that your almighty fully indwells now? A clear yes or no will be appreciated. Unless you don’t want to be clear.

Do you honor the man Christ Jesus as you honor your almighty God? A clear yes or no will be appreciated. Unless you don’t want to be clear.

By the way, it seems you now deny that your almighty God made the man Christ Jesus to be God afterwards. Do you deny that now??A clear yes or no will be appreciated. Unless you don’t want to be clear.

To be exact.

I worship God almighty through the man Christ Jesus.

This(Col 2:9) qualifies the man Christ Jesus to be God almighty by default.

I cannot ever tell the man Christ Jesus, "stay out of this, I am worshipping your Father this time", etc.

No man can access God but THROUGH Jesus.

When I say "through" I mean exactly that...God is completely encapsulated in the man Christ Jesus, so Jesus first had to be made upon resurrection, an omnipresent quickening spirit for his God to fit inside him, bodily.

Paul got a glimpse of this new "light body" of Jesus in Acts 9.

You must stop thinking of the body of Jesus being a small human body like ours.(He can now appear simultaneously, everywhere).

That’s new to me, your view of God and Jesus Christ, I think.

So you don’t worship Jesus but worship God through Him, is that right?

Tong
R2283

 

[Tong2020]

This(Col 2:9) qualifies the man Christ Jesus to be God almighty by default.

So, the man Christ Jesus became qualified to be God almighty. Well, that’s nowhere in scriptures. God could take the form of man, even become man as in the incarnation, but no creature can ever become God. And there is no God, except Him who is the creator of all creation, nor there formed. But in your view of Christ Jesus, he is sort of a man created by God that later God formed into a God.

Tong
R2284

 

[Truther]

That’s new to me, your view of God and Jesus Christ, I think.

So you don’t worship Jesus but worship God through Him, is that right?

Tong
R2283

I worship God through him, but I cannot go to God but by him, so technically, I worship and pray directly to him knowing his God receives my worship and prayers via His son. I Think of the man Christ Jesus as the mediator between a perfect unapproachable God and sinful man in every aspect of my life.

 

[Truther]

So, the man Christ Jesus became qualified to be God almighty. Well, that’s nowhere in scriptures. God could take the form of man, even become man as in the incarnation, but no creature can ever become God. And there is no God, except Him who is the creator of all creation, nor there formed. But in your view of Christ Jesus, he is sort of a man created by God that later God formed into a God.

Tong
R2284

On the contrary, what is nowhere in scriptures is God becoming human and humbling Himself to the devil and sinful man.

 

[Tong2020]

I worship God through him, but I cannot go to God but by him, so technically, I worship and pray directly to him knowing his God receives my worship and prayers via His son. I Think of the man Christ Jesus as the mediator between a perfect unapproachable God and sinful man in every aspect of my life.

That’s what I was saying, that you don’t really take Jesus Christ to be the God you worship and pray to. You course your worship and prayer to God through Jesus Christ. Thus, you actually so not worship Jesus Christ but God through him. I got it.

And that in my view is not what scriptures teaches about God and about Jesus Christ.

Tong
R2286

 

[Truther]

That’s what I was saying, that you don’t really take Jesus Christ to be the God you worship and pray to. You course your worship and prayer to God through Jesus Christ. Thus, you actually so not worship Jesus Christ but God through him. I got it.

And that in my view is not what scriptures teaches about God and about Jesus Christ.

Tong
R2286

Since God is inside Jesus, they cannot be separated, but have been unified as one. You speak to one, the other automatically qualifies as the recipient too.

Let's slow this down and think.

Per this verse, which was quoting Jesus after he was in heaven for decades....


12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

....which Jesus declares to have a God 4 times in a single verse, means Jesus, right now as we speak, has a God, correct?

Can you openly say Jesus has a God as per Paul did?..

2 Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So, the man Christ Jesus became qualified to be God almighty. Well, that’s nowhere in scriptures. God could take the form of man, even become man as in the incarnation, but no creature can ever become God. And there is no God, except Him who is the creator of all creation, nor there formed. But in your view of Christ Jesus, he is sort of a man created by God that later God formed into a God.

On the contrary, what is nowhere in scriptures is God becoming human and humbling Himself to the devil and sinful man.

I can show you scriptures of the incarnation of the Word, who was God. But can you show me scriptures that says that Jesus became qualified to be almighty God? Besides, isn’t your take of Jesus Christ not really God, for you only worship and pray through him but not pray and worship him.

Also, Jesus never humbled himself to the devil, even as a man.

Tong
R2287

 

[Truther]

I can show you scriptures of the incarnation of the Word, who was God. But can you show me scriptures that says that Jesus became qualified to be almighty God? Besides, isn’t your take of Jesus Christ not really God, for you only worship and pray through him but not pray and worship him.

Also, Jesus never humbled himself to the devil, even as a man.

Tong
R2287

Do you believe God Himself humbled Himself to the devil and sinful man per Phil 2?

Yes or no?

Who humbled himself in Phil 2?

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
That’s what I was saying, that you don’t really take Jesus Christ to be the God you worship and pray to. You course your worship and prayer to God through Jesus Christ. Thus, you actually so not worship Jesus Christ but God through him. I got it.

And that in my view is not what scriptures teaches about God and about Jesus Christ.

Since God is inside Jesus, they cannot be separated, but have been unified as one. You speak to one, the other automatically qualifies as the recipient too.

Let's slow this down and think.

Per this verse, which was quoting Jesus after he was in heaven for decades....


12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

....which Jesus declares to have a God 4 times in a single verse, means Jesus, right now as we speak, has a God, correct?

Can you openly say Jesus has a God?

<<<Since God is inside Jesus, they cannot be separated, but have been unified as one.>>>

No matter. Such does not take away that in your view of God and Jesus Christ, God is not Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is not God.

<<<12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.>>>

Please be kind to give the book and chapter in the Bible.

Tong
R2288

 

[Truther]

<<<Since God is inside Jesus, they cannot be separated, but have been unified as one.>>>

No matter. Such does not take away that in your view of God and Jesus Christ, God is not Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is not God.

<<<12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.>>>

Please be kind to give the book and chapter in the Bible.

Tong
R2288

Rev 3:12

Is Jesus saying he has a God in the verse 4 times?

Should he have said it 8 times for us to believe him?