For free will believers out there

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<Jesus came in the likeness of the first man Adam. Just as the first Adam wasn't a God-Man, neither was the last Adam, Jesus. >>>

Jesus Christ has come in the flesh (1 John 4:2-3). Relevant to this, see Phil.2:6-7.

<<<Adam, who lost everlasting life in human perfection.....>>>

Where in scriptures does it teach that Adam has everlasting life, and that he lost it? I am not aware of any passage in the Bible that teaches that. Does your Bible (NWT) teach that? Can you tell us where you got that?

Adam knowingly and willingly sinned. He wasn't deceived. Doesn't your Bible teach you that Adam wasn't deceived.

Also as I said and will continue to Jesus Christ came as the equal human the first Adam was before he sinned. The first Adam wasn't a God-Man so neither was Jesus Christ. Your sayingJesus came more than human if you say Jesus was a God-Man when he was on Earth

So you don’t have any scriptures to back your claim that Adam had everlasting life and lost it? Not even in your Bible, the NWT? Well,...

<<<Adam knowingly and willingly sinned. He wasn't deceived. Doesn't your Bible teach you that Adam wasn't deceived.>>>

Yes scriptures says that. So? What’s your point in bringing that up in our discussion?

Tong
R2262

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

So you don’t have any scriptures to back your claim that Adam had everlasting life and lost it? Not even in your Bible, the NWT? Well,...

<<<Adam knowingly and willingly sinned. He wasn't deceived. Doesn't your Bible teach you that Adam wasn't deceived.>>>

Yes scriptures says that. So? What’s your point in bringing that up in our discussion?

Tong
R2262

Just as judas knowingly and willingly betrayed Jesus the first man Adam knowingly and willingly betrayed the True God.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So you don’t have any scriptures to back your claim that Adam had everlasting life and lost it? Not even in your Bible, the NWT? Well,...

<<<Adam knowingly and willingly sinned. He wasn't deceived. Doesn't your Bible teach you that Adam wasn't deceived.>>>

Yes scriptures says that. So? What’s your point in bringing that up in our discussion?

Just as judas knowingly and willingly betrayed Jesus the first man Adam knowingly and willingly betrayed the True God.

So, I’ll take it, since up til now you have not given a scripture, not even on your Bible (NWT), that backs up what you teach, that Adam had everlasting life and lost it, that what you teach there is only coming from you and that you just made that up. In short, it’s false teaching.

What you say there is a non issue.

Tong
R2266

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The work of spreading the Gospel is until He comes again, aided by the power of the Holy Spirit who guides me and keeps me and, many more like me.
.

Yes the Apostles were the first to evangelize. but their office and inspiration do not belong to members of the chruch today. Evangelism is a command for all. Also we are all "apostolos" (sent ones" but only 14 ever held the office of Apostle.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Regarding those who die as infants, what sin do you say they are guilty of? I know not any except of their sin in Adam. And that is not willful and intentional on their part. I believe that that was taken cared of by the blood of Jesus Christ. For Jesus said concerning little children, “for of such is the kingdom of God”.

Regarding the billions you refer to that never heard the gospel that the apostle preached, the question is, are they saved? I have already told you in my response to your OP, that God, since the time that Adam sinned, is working out His salvation of His people, whom He had chosen by grace. A salvation that is by and through faith in Him. So He gives them faith. And faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God. Consider those men mentioned in Hebrews 11 for example, how were they saved? By faith in God. So, those supposed billions that had not been reached by the gospel preached by the apostles, those chosen of God, those whom God had given the grace of salvation, those who had faith in God, as did those men in Hebrews 11, they too are saved.

Tong
R2247

The bible declares in the psalms that rom the womb we go astray. God said He put all under condemnation. They have a sin nature by default . We do not gain a sin nature the moment we commit a sin, but we sin because we have a nature determined ot sin. Paul in Ephesians said that we are all by nature (not action) objects of wrath!

Yes God is working out HIs salvation. But since the birth of the Church--no one, I repeat no one can be saved apart from the gospel and the sad fact is that since the church was born- billions have lived and died apart from eever hearing the gospel and thus lost3 forever.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

<<<Then you do not understand the nature of hell/sheol/hades/ the grave. Bodies die, but souls don't. >>>

The matter is not because bodies die and souls don’t. Rather, what scriptures say regarding the preaching of the gospel. And it is clear in scriptures that that not happen in that, after death is judgment. If, for the sake of argument, Jesus went to the dead, it was not as a matter of evangelism but a matter of declaration. For in addition to the truth in Hebrews 9:27, there is a picture given by scriptures, such as that no one can transfer from hades to where dead Abraham is said to be.

Tong
R2248

I agree, He went to Abrahams Bosom to declare to the righteous that the blood had been shed and they would soon be released to heaven. Tot he lost in the place of torments, it was a message of damnation.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Well, I think all that we say are open to interpretation.

God is the creator of all things. In Adam, God created mankind. They are in Adam, in his loins, so to speak. There is nothing that is in Adam that God had not given and created when He created him into being. In other words, they are a given.

Tong
R2250

And what is the point?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Adam knowingly and willingly sinned. He wasn't deceived. Doesn't your Bible teach you that Adam wasn't deceived.

Also as I said and will continue to Jesus Christ came as the equal human the first Adam was before he sinned. The first Adam wasn't a God-Man so neither was Jesus Christ. Your sayingJesus came more than human if you say Jesus was a God-Man when he was on Earth

So if you are saying He left His divinity in heaven than maybe.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

So, I’ll take it, since up til now you have not given a scripture, not even on your Bible (NWT), that backs up what you teach, that Adam had everlasting life and lost it, that what you teach there is only coming from you and that you just made that up. In short, it’s false teaching.

What you say there is a non issue.

Tong
R2266

You're obviously ignoring the fact that Judas betrayed Jesus when he knew who Jesus was but still willingly and knowingly betrayed him. If you honestly don't know what that means concerning Judas, that he never repented of his deliberate sin. The scriptures call Judas, "the son of destruction."John 17:12 Also Adam wasn't deceived but knowingly and willingly sinned knowing that what that serpent said to Eve wasn't true.1 Timothy 2:13,14; Hebrew 10:26,27 Don't believe what I text it's no skin off my nose I know what I said is true.

 

[Grailhunter]

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

So if you are saying He left His divinity in heaven than maybe.

What I'm saying and will continue to say, you and those who say Jesus came as a God-Man, you're saying he came as more than human. The first man Adam was a human not a God-man, so either you believe Jesus came as a human or you believe he came as more than human.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Regarding those who die as infants, what sin do you say they are guilty of? I know not any except of their sin in Adam. And that is not willful and intentional on their part. I believe that that was taken cared of by the blood of Jesus Christ. For Jesus said concerning little children, “for of such is the kingdom of God”.

Regarding the billions you refer to that never heard the gospel that the apostle preached, the question is, are they saved? I have already told you in my response to your OP, that God, since the time that Adam sinned, is working out His salvation of His people, whom He had chosen by grace. A salvation that is by and through faith in Him. So He gives them faith. And faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God. Consider those men mentioned in Hebrews 11 for example, how were they saved? By faith in God. So, those supposed billions that had not been reached by the gospel preached by the apostles, those chosen of God, those whom God had given the grace of salvation, those who had faith in God, as did those men in Hebrews 11, they too are saved.

The bible declares in the psalms that rom the womb we go astray. God said He put all under condemnation. They have a sin nature by default . We do not gain a sin nature the moment we commit a sin, but we sin because we have a nature determined ot sin. Paul in Ephesians said that we are all by nature (not action) objects of wrath!

Yes God is working out HIs salvation. But since the birth of the Church--no one, I repeat no one can be saved apart from the gospel and the sad fact is that since the church was born- billions have lived and died apart from eever hearing the gospel and thus lost3 forever.

<<<The bible declares in the psalms that rom the womb we go astray. God said He put all under condemnation. They have a sin nature by default . We do not gain a sin nature the moment we commit a sin, but we sin because we have a nature determined ot sin. Paul in Ephesians said that we are all by nature (not action) objects of wrath!>>>

Yes we were at one time all objects of the wrath of God including the infants, but not after Jesus had offered His life as an atoning sacrifice for the sin of the world that appeased God with the precious blood of Christ covering the sins of all men, young and old alike.

<<<Yes God is working out HIs salvation. But since the birth of the Church--no one, I repeat no one can be saved apart from the gospel and the sad fact is that since the church was born- billions have lived and died apart from eever hearing the gospel and thus lost3 forever.>>>

Yes, Peter preached of the name of Jesus Christ, that there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved. But what does he meant by that? If the name “yeshua” is some sacred or magic word or name, so to speak, why translate it to “Jesus”? Peter was referring to name of the Lord, that is, the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. In other words, He is simply referring to God, the God of Abraham, of Isaac, of Jacob, of Moses. And that had been even since the beginning. How do you suppose were the men mentioned in Hebrews 11, saved?

Why is it a sad fact that many had lived and died from ever hearing the gospel concerning Jesus Christ? Even taking for granted, for the sake of argument, that they were not saved, do you think that there is something wrong with that, something that God must have done but did not do? I don’t think so and son’t believe so.

Tong
R2267

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
<<<Then you do not understand the nature of hell/sheol/hades/ the grave. Bodies die, but souls don't. >>>

The matter is not because bodies die and souls don’t. Rather, what scriptures say regarding the preaching of the gospel. And it is clear in scriptures that that not happen in that, after death is judgment. If, for the sake of argument, Jesus went to the dead, it was not as a matter of evangelism but a matter of declaration. For in addition to the truth in Hebrews 9:27, there is a picture given by scriptures, such as that no one can transfer from hades to where dead Abraham is said to be.

I agree, He went to Abrahams Bosom to declare to the righteous that the blood had been shed and they would soon be released to heaven. Tot he lost in the place of torments, it was a message of damnation.

The point is that, after death comes judgment, and that Jesus did not preach to people past their earthly life.

Tong
R2268

 

[Truther]

I would guess that humble man you are referring to is Jesus, right? Which you said the almighty God you serve made into a God, right? And if your almighty God made Jesus into God, you must be taking Jesus as a created, formed or made God, right? Do you serve and worship the humble man?

Now your almighty God said in scriptures:

Isaiah 43:10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.

It seems you did not believe what your almighty God said there. Well,....

Tong
R2261

Correction. The humble man is the man Christ Jesus that God fully indwells now, bodily. God does everything He does THROUGH Jesus.

Not AS Jesus, nor alongside Jesus etc.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Well, I think all that we say are open to interpretation.

God is the creator of all things. In Adam, God created mankind. They are in Adam, in his loins, so to speak. There is nothing that is in Adam that God had not given and created when He created him into being. In other words, they are a given.

And what is the point?

The point is as I said, that all those who are “in Adam” are all those whom God had created in him, those born and who will be born of him.

Tong
R2268

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
So, I’ll take it, since up til now you have not given a scripture, not even on your Bible (NWT), that backs up what you teach, that Adam had everlasting life and lost it, that what you teach there is only coming from you and that you just made that up. In short, it’s false teaching.

What you say there is a non issue.

You're obviously ignoring the fact that Judas betrayed Jesus when he knew who Jesus was but still willingly and knowingly betrayed him. If you honestly don't know what that means concerning Judas, that he never repented of his deliberate sin. The scriptures call Judas, "the son of destruction."John 17:12 Also Adam wasn't deceived but knowingly and willingly sinned knowing that what that serpent said to Eve wasn't true.1 Timothy 2:13,14; Hebrew 10:26,27 Don't believe what I text it's no skin off my nose I know what I said is true.

I am not at all ignoring what you say there concerning Judas and Adam. That’s why I said in comment, it’s a non issue. That I means I have no objection on that.

This is the issue, that you teach that Adam had everlasting life but later lost it, Which given several opportunities for you to show scriptures, you had no scriptures to show until now. It is fair to say at this point that you have been ignoring this. But I guess you will just dismiss this by insisting that what you teach is true. Well,...

Tong
R2269

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I would guess that humble man you are referring to is Jesus, right? Which you said the almighty God you serve made into a God, right? And if your almighty God made Jesus into God, you must be taking Jesus as a created, formed or made God, right? Do you serve and worship the humble man?

Now your almighty God said in scriptures:

Isaiah 43:10 “You are My witnesses,” says the Lord, “And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.

It seems you did not believe what your almighty God said there. Well,....

Correction. The humble man is the man Christ Jesus that God fully indwells now, bodily. God does everything He does THROUGH Jesus.

Not AS Jesus, nor alongside Jesus etc.

So do you serve and worship the man Christ Jesus that your almighty fully indwells now? A clear yes or no will be appreciated. Unless you don’t want to be clear.

Do you honor the man Christ Jesus as you honor your almighty God? A clear yes or no will be appreciated. Unless you don’t want to be clear.

By the way, it seems you now deny that your almighty God made the man Christ Jesus to be God afterwards. Do you deny that now??A clear yes or no will be appreciated. Unless you don’t want to be clear.

Tong
R2270

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I am not at all ignoring what you say there concerning Judas and Adam. That’s why I said in comment, it’s a non issue. That I means I have no objection on that.

This is the issue, that you teach that Adam had everlasting life but later lost it, Which given several opportunities for you to show scriptures, you had no scriptures to show until now. It is fair to say at this point that you have been ignoring this. But I guess you will just dismiss this by insisting that what you teach is true. Well,...

Tong
R2269

God didn't create Adam for him to live for a limited time then die. God told Adam that only if he ate of the forbidden fruit he would die. So it wasn't God will for Adam to die. The only reason Adam would die is if he ate of the forbidden fruit. But Adam did eat of the forbidden Fruit and so yes the tragic start Adam gave the human race was that he lost paradise, true happiness and everlasting life.

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
I am not at all ignoring what you say there concerning Judas and Adam. That’s why I said in comment, it’s a non issue. That I means I have no objection on that.

This is the issue, that you teach that Adam had everlasting life but later lost it, Which given several opportunities for you to show scriptures, you had no scriptures to show until now. It is fair to say at this point that you have been ignoring this. But I guess you will just dismiss this by insisting that what you teach is true. Well,...

God didn't create Adam for him to live for a limited time then die. God told Adam that only if he ate of the forbidden fruit he would die. So it wasn't God will for Adam to die. The only reason Adam would die is if he ate of the forbidden fruit. But Adam did eat of the forbidden Fruit and so yes the tragic start Adam gave the human race was that he lost paradise, true happiness and everlasting life.

Just as I said you will just insist because you have no scriptures to show.

Regarding the rest of your post, it seems you have your eyes on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil but do not seem to see the tree of life which is also where the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, in the midst of the garden of Eden. And they were obviously allowed to eat of the tree of life for they were only told of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil not to eat. Tell us, according to your scriptures, what would happen of they ate of the tree of life? Is it not that they will get to live forever? In other words, they will have everlasting life. What does that tell you then?

<<<God told Adam that only if he ate of the forbidden fruit he would die.>>>

This statement has truth but also has lies. The lie is on the word “only” and the lack of the word “surely”. What God told Adam is without the “only” and with the word “surely”. That if he ate of the forbidden fruit, he would surely die, is what God said to him.

Tong
R2273

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Just as I said you will just insist because you have no scriptures to show.

Regarding the rest of your post, it seems you have your eyes on the tree of the knowledge of good and evil but do not seem to see the tree of life which is also where the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, in the midst of the garden of Eden. And they were obviously allowed to eat of the tree of life for they were only told of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil not to eat. Tell us, according to your scriptures, what would happen of they ate of the tree of life? Is it not that they will get to live forever? In other words, they will have everlasting life. What does that tell you then?

<<<God told Adam that only if he ate of the forbidden fruit he would die.>>>

This statement has truth but also has lies. The lie is on the word “only” and the lack of the word “surely”. What God told Adam is without the “only” and with the word “surely”. That if he ate of the forbidden fruit, he would surely die, is what God said to him.

Tong
R2273

There is only one command God gave Adam that if he disobeyed he would die which is at Genesis 2:17 God said to Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil because if he did he would die. So I can see from the scriptures that the only reason death is in existence concerning the human race is that Adam disobeyed that command. If he hadn't eaten of the fruit of that forbidden tree Adam nor his offspring would be dying. The human race would be living on a paradise Earth.
But Adam did disobey the command regarding the tree of the knowledge of good and Evil so he did loose eternal life for himself and his offspring. The reason humans die is because of the sin of Adam. Also if you remember at Genesis 3:22 God expelled or sent them out of the Garden of Eden so that they couldn't also partake of the tree of life and live forever. So yes Adam lost his eternal life for himself and his offspring.