True or false?

[Episkopos]

The point still is, is the person truly saved or not?

The sheep are saved, we are His sheep. The goats are not saved. That is what judgement will be about - the only works that will be judged are believers works - for reward - not salvation. By the time judgement comes, sheep are already sheep and goats are already goats.

Works don't save.

This is modern church rhetoric but not supported in the bible. Nobody is finally saved before then end of their lives...after which comes judgment. Nobody is pre-judged.

The bible says..."Judge nothing before it's time." Therefore many believers are going against the bible they proclaim to follow. And we are not to judge period.

Those who are declared by the Lord as His sheep are called such because of their works...what they did to the least of the brethren. THAT is biblical.

There are too many other subtle errors derived from and that follow the profound errors I've already listed.

My question...why are there not more people checking out these errant doctrines by reading the bible for themselves?

 

[Mal'ak]

We are absolutely indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon accepting Christ.

Romans 8:9 "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

If we've accepted Christ we have the Spirit as anyone who doesn't have the Spirit of Christ doesn't belong to Him.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

What you are not seeing, is yes the Holy Spirit is sent to us as a comforter, but will "bring all things to your remembrance". It does not dictate or control your actions, as Jesus said in verse 23 "IF a man love me, he will keep my words". Still act of Obedience of Jesus himself saying if you love me you will obey my Words that the Holy Spirit will call into remembrance, never once did Jesus say "you will love me because I will send the Holy Spirit to make you good and make you obey", that is false doctrine.

To connect the dots of "bring all things to your remembrance", we can go to "2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." As Christians we are told to "study"(2 Timothy 2:15) the Father's Word, then the Holy Spirit will "bring all things to your remembrance"(John 14:26) you learned from studying so you can "keep [Jesus'] words"(John 14:23).

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Jonah 1:1 Now the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
Jonah 1:2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
Jonah 1:3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord.

There are those that will Blasphemy the Holy Spirit at the end during the Tribulation, and they can not be forgiven according to Matthew 12:31. Then there are stories like Jonah, where the spirit of the Lord gave people God's Word and they outright refused to do it out of fear or in Jonah's case anger that God wanted to save one city and not another. So both scripture show, even though we are given the Holy Spirit we can chose to disobey him.

The word for fear in this verse means reverence. Context includes studying the proper use/meaning of the words.

Strong's Concordance 5401
phobos Usage: (a) fear, terror, alarm, (b) the object or cause of fear, (c) reverence, respect.
reverence, respect (for authority, rank, dignity) Acts 9:31

The Greek usage in A and B usages says "fear, terror", but you ignore it and scripture to believe what you want and let traditions of man. That is an example of ignoring the Holy Spirit like Jonah did, but for you is a refusal to let go of traditions of man. The Hebrew of Proverbs is same, down below: fearing, reverent. Reverent means awing respect, to worship. Which does not make you evil, just proves you ignored 4 word usages to cherry pick the one that kinda supports your flesh tradition. But still does not work, Reverence meaning worship is still fear. When you read about those in the presence of the Father in the Word is it a flesh father respect "hey dad, sup?", no they are so filled with awe and fear they drop to their knees and put their face in the dirt.

Feareth: H3373-yaw-ray'; from H3372; fearing; morally, reverent:—afraid, fear (-ful).

While you're focusing on the 'faith without works' part of the verse (29) you have to see the rest of it -
"For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

The point still is, is the person truly saved or not?

I still do not see your point, it says "faith without works is dead". The Body is your flesh and it is making the comparison that your flesh body can not live without your soul, just as your faith can not save you without works. Jesus, James, and John all said faith without works is dead. I am not saying it, they said it point blank, your refusal to see that is your refusal. The point remains as I said before, if Jesus says I will gather my sheep based on their works and you say Paul said you don't need works, you are using Paul to call Jesus Christ a liar instead of realizing maybe Paul had a different point to make.

I am not trying to belittle you or your faith at all, and I welcome the discussion. But my mind can easily be changed, I don't worship a Pastor or a Church or a tradition. I read the Word of God, and let it do the talking. I have no pride or care what doctrine is true, my only care is the truth. If your doctrine you are putting forward is true, I would adopt it in a second, I have no personal feelings like many Christians saying "I was not raised to believe that, so I won't believe it". My flesh and pride be damned, I care only for what the Father says. Sadly you just have not pointed to an scripture to your claim, other then cherry picking definitions and using Paul to call Jesus a liar, which near can be accepted by me.

 

[brakelite]

This is modern church rhetoric but not supported in the bible. Nobody is finally saved before then end of their lives...after which comes judgment. Nobody is pre-judged.

When Christ comes to take His church home, surely some form of judgement must have been already made as to distinguish between those who are translated and those who are destroyed?

 

[Episkopos]

When Christ comes to take His church home, surely some form of judgement must have been already made as to distinguish between those who are translated and those who are destroyed?

At that time...yes. It's a mystery. God can regulate things beyond our imaginations. But we don't know His criteria. I believe that God takes His loved ones at the best time possible for them...finishing on a good note. Those who rebel against Him not so much.

We can be ready at certain times and not so ready at other times. We all go through phases. But Jesus comes as a thief in the night...to take away what someone has if they aren't ready.

So it depends on how we are doing at that time. Look at the 10 virgins. Why did God allow half of them to not have oil in their lamps?

Obviously they were all responsible for that. It is up to us to be ready. So the timing of the coming of the Lord dictates who is ready and who isn't. We are to anticipate His coming by a continual watching and praying in any case.

 

[Pearl]

We are absolutely indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon accepting Christ.

Romans 8:9 "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him."

If we've accepted Christ we have the Spirit as anyone who doesn't have the Spirit of Christ doesn't belong to Him.

How do you reconcile the verses that say we are indwelt by the Spirit? E.g., in addition to the one above:

1 Cor 3:16 Do you not know that you are God's temple and that God's Spirit dwells in you?

John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him. You know him, for he dwells with you and will be in you.

Or the fact that there is a transformation not of our own doing?

2 Cor 3:18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

2 Cor 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

In keeping with the context of the chapter, the very next verses, 17-18, "But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."

Obedience doesn't save us. Believers are no longer slaves to sin - that means our nature has changed - now we are slaves to righteousness. This is no way by our own doing.

As for having the crown of life 'stripped from him', that isn't scriptural.

"Blessed is the man who remains steadfast under trial, for when he has stood the test he will receive the crown of life, which God has promised to those who love him." James 1:12

First, as James says, the crown of life will go to someone who's already stood the test and second, do you think God reneges on the gifts He gives?

"For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable." Romans 11:29

The word for fear in this verse means reverence. Context includes studying the proper use/meaning of the words.

Strong's Concordance 5401
phobos Usage: (a) fear, terror, alarm, (b) the object or cause of fear, (c) reverence, respect.
reverence, respect (for authority, rank, dignity) Acts 9:31

Of course they wanted to be obedient, as we all do, but it wasn't out of fear of punishment. The church you are presenting is one driven by fear. The church Christ began and the Apostles were building was one of boldness, joy. They knew it wouldn't be easy but they weren't doing these things because they were afraid of punishment if they didn't.

Acts 2:42-47 "And they devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers. 43 And awe came upon every soul, and many wonders and signs were being done through the apostles. 44 And all who believed were together and had all things in common. 45 And they were selling their possessions and belongings and distributing the proceeds to all, as any had need. 46 And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they received their food with glad and generous hearts, 47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved."

While you're focusing on the 'faith without works' part of the verse (29) you have to see the rest of it -
"For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

The point still is, is the person truly saved or not?

The sheep are saved, we are His sheep. The goats are not saved. That is what judgement will be about - the only works that will be judged are believers works - for reward - not salvation. By the time judgement comes, sheep are already sheep and goats are already goats.

Works don't save.

I'm not sure why you think I believe salvation is automatic. Of course it's not.

Christ dying on the Cross, and His subsequent resurrection, made salvation available to everyone. The free gift of salvation must be accepted.

Anyway, we may not agree here. I'm not stupid enough to think 'I'll' change anyone's mind - only the Holy Spirit can do that, but I appreciate you taking the time to discuss, thank you :)[/QUOTE

I would say anybody who does not understand or believe what you have posted here illini1959, does not have the Holy Spirit of God in them and so are not Christians.

1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

 

[illini1959]

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.
John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

What you are not seeing, is yes the Holy Spirit is sent to us as a comforter, but will "bring all things to your remembrance". It does not dictate or control your actions, as Jesus said in verse 23 "IF a man love me, he will keep my words". Still act of Obedience of Jesus himself saying if you love me you will obey my Words that the Holy Spirit will call into remembrance, never once did Jesus say "you will love me because I will send the Holy Spirit to make you good and make you obey", that is false doctrine.

I've never said Jesus said that. Where did you get that from?

I posted other verses, as an example. I can't post them all....but they show we are transformed. A new creation in Christ. Yes, we still have to obey and we have choices in that but like I said, we have a new nature - a nature no longer slaves to sin.

This doesn't mean we're robots, just means we are a new creation in Christ.

To connect the dots of "bring all things to your remembrance", we can go to "2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." As Christians we are told to "study"(2 Timothy 2:15) the Father's Word, then the Holy Spirit will "bring all things to your remembrance"(John 14:26) you learned from studying so you can "keep [Jesus'] words"(John 14:23).

Matthew 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

Jonah 1:1 Now the word of the Lord came unto Jonah the son of Amittai, saying,
Jonah 1:2 Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me.
Jonah 1:3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord, and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the Lord.

There are those that will Blasphemy the Holy Spirit at the end during the Tribulation, and they can not be forgiven according to Matthew 12:31. Then there are stories like Jonah, where the spirit of the Lord gave people God's Word and they outright refused to do it out of fear or in Jonah's case anger that God wanted to save one city and not another. So both scripture show, even though we are given the Holy Spirit we can chose to disobey him.

Somehow there's a disconnect. I've never said we cannot choose to disobey.

The Greek usage in A and B usages says "fear, terror", but you ignore it and scripture to believe what you want and let traditions of man. That is an example of ignoring the Holy Spirit like Jonah did, but for you is a refusal to let go of traditions of man. The Hebrew of Proverbs is same, down below: fearing, reverent. Reverent means awing respect, to worship. Which does not make you evil, just proves you ignored 4 word usages to cherry pick the one that kinda supports your flesh tradition. But still does not work, Reverence meaning worship is still fear. When you read about those in the presence of the Father in the Word is it a flesh father respect "hey dad, sup?", no they are so filled with awe and fear they drop to their knees and put their face in the dirt.

Feareth: H3373-yaw-ray'; from H3372; fearing; morally, reverent:—afraid, fear (-ful).

If you read closely you'll see that I said this is the meaning of the word in this verse. I posted all three ways the word is used then I posted how it's used specifically in Acts 9:31; that wasn't "my" definition, you'd have to take it up with Strongs.

I never follow any traditions of man. But I do study and part of that is being specific to the verse. You can quote definitions all day long but make sure it's in the context of the verse you're quoting. The word fear in Proverbs isn't the same word used in Acts 9:31.

I still do not see your point, it says "faith without works is dead". The Body is your flesh and it is making the comparison that your flesh body can not live without your soul, just as your faith can not save you without works. Jesus, James, and John all said faith without works is dead. I am not saying it, they said it point blank, your refusal to see that is your refusal. The point remains as I said before, if Jesus says I will gather my sheep based on their works and you say Paul said you don't need works, you are using Paul to call Jesus Christ a liar instead of realizing maybe Paul had a different point to make.

It says "just as the body without the spirit is dead....so also faith without works is dead"

It's an analogy.

I am not trying to belittle you or your faith at all, and I welcome the discussion. But my mind can easily be changed, I don't worship a Pastor or a Church or a tradition. I read the Word of God, and let it do the talking. I have no pride or care what doctrine is true, my only care is the truth. If your doctrine you are putting forward is true, I would adopt it in a second, I have no personal feelings like many Christians saying "I was not raised to believe that, so I won't believe it". My flesh and pride be damned, I care only for what the Father says. Sadly you just have not pointed to an scripture to your claim, other then cherry picking definitions and using Paul to call Jesus a liar, which near can be accepted by me.

My mind cannot be easily changed because I'm grounded in the word of God. "so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine..." Eph 4:14

I don't follow men, pastors, churches or tradition. Never have. My standard to test all things is scripture. If something doesn't align with scripture I discard it.

If by "cherry picking definitions" you mean using the correct definition for a word in the context of a verse, guilty. And will remain guilty. Language is a tricky thing, even in English I'm sure you're aware of how words can have different meanings depending on context. Hebrew and Greek even moreso. To ensure I understand the meaning of a verse I will look up a word but also take the time to see what the meaning is as it pertains to the verse I'm reading. The extra step helps me be sure I'm not reading my own meaning into things.....

You'll have to show me where I've used Paul to call Jesus a liar. It appears you are also using God's word to create a salvation based upon fear and false doctrine, but I would rather give people a chance to explain before making declarative accusations.

 

[Behold]

While we were out in town today we were approached by two Mormon missionaries. We told them we had been born-again Christians for a long time and my husband asked if they believed they would go to heaven. They told us that their place in heaven had to be earned through good works. What do you believe? True or false? Personally I believe it to be false and they are spreading a different gospel.

The only "work" that allows a person to enter heaven as "One with God and Christ" is "the finished Work of Jesus on the Cross."

The "work of God, is that you BELIEVE ON the ONE Whom God Sent".

Thats the ONLY WORK that God accepts to accept us and keep us.

 

[Gregory]

While we were out in town today we were approached by two Mormon missionaries. We told them we had been born-again Christians for a long time and my husband asked if they believed they would go to heaven. They told us that their place in heaven had to be earned through good works. What do you believe? True or false? Personally I believe it to be false and they are spreading a different gospel.

I believe it is true in this respect: When we are born again, we are a new creature in Christ. This new creature is full of grace and truth, and this grace and truth leads us to be engaged in good works. To me, doing good works is a sign that you are born again.

Read 1 Corinthians 13:
Especially read the last 3 words of verse 2
Especially read the last 4 words of verse 3
Especially read verse 13

Notice that having charity is greater than having faith. How can that be?

1 Corinthians 13 is a model Christian and if we are not like that, I feel like we will not be saved.

So we must believe and have faith and be born again and then act like the model given to us in 1 Cor. 13. Otherwise I am nothing. Does that mean I will not be saved?

 

[Behold]

1 Corinthians 13 is a model Christian and if we are not like that, I feel like we will not be saved.

Gregory,

God justifies with the Blood of Jesus, the UNGODLY., not the good.
Who are they?
All of us.
We are all filthy before God's Holiness.
So, what does God offer?
He offers His very own Holiness, in place of our sin.
Thats the CROSS.
On that Cross, Jesus became the sin of the World, and died for it, and by/through our Faith,= God gives us the very Righteousness of Christ as who we become... "in Christ"......as a "New Creation"> BORN AGAIN.
God is dying on The Cross, for all our sin, and through this Righteous Death, we are forgiven, made SINLESS, and become "ONE with God", eternally.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

doing good works is a sign that you are born again.

Athiests "doing good works" IS NOT a sign that they are born again!

Each of us, can Only Individually "judge ourSELVES," not others, as
to THEIR status. Notice, God Teaches A "SELF-Examination":

"Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove
YOUR OWN SELVES. Know ye not YOUR OWN SELVES, how
that JESUS CHRIST is in you, except ye be reprobates?"
(2 Corinthians 13:5 KJB!)

Thus, IF MY OWN SELF, thinking "I am saved," but have NO PEACE,
am not exhibiting "good works," and "...The Fruit Of The Spirit: love,
joy, PEACE, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness,
temperance: against such there is no law." (Galatians 5:22-23 KJB!)

Had not MY OWN SELF better Re-Examine?:

God’s ETERNAL Salvation Is As Simple As Can Be = ”believe”

The Gospel Of The GRACE Of God!:​

“For I [ Paul! ] delivered unto you first of all That Which I also received, How
That CHRIST Died For our sins According To The Scriptures; And That HE Was
Buried, And That HE Rose Again the third day According To The Scriptures!”
(1 Corinthians 15 : 3-4 KJB!)

Forgiveness is By: "The Merits of HIS ALL-Sufficient BLOOD!" Amen?

+

"For By GRACE are ye SAVED Through faith; and that not of yourselves:
It Is The Gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast!"
(Ephesians 2 : 8-9! cp Most of Romans through Philemon # KJB!)
{ GRACE [God's UNmerited Favor] Found 85 Times! }

And, After God Establishes HIS "ETERNAL Relationship," THEN:

"For we Are HIS Workmanship, created in CHRIST JESUS unto good
works, which God hath before ordained that we SHOULD walk in them."
(Ephesians 2:10 KJB!)

This is Fellowship:

Are ALL "going to walk as they SHOULD walk? Apparently NOT, as our
Judgment is "rewards for good works, and LOSS of rewards for bad works,
but he himSELF Shall Be Saved!" (See 1 Corinthians 3:8-15 KJB!)

Salvation is 100 Percent Free, but Eternal Rewards are 100 percent Earned!

Be Blessed!

 

[LouisWilliams]

While we were out in town today we were approached by two Mormon missionaries. We told them we had been born-again Christians for a long time and my husband asked if they believed they would go to heaven. They told us that their place in heaven had to be earned through good works. What do you believe? True or false? Personally I believe it to be false and they are spreading a different gospel.

I have mixed feelings. Because honestly, many Mormons are very earnest and friendly people, with very strong family values and a sense of community; their Mormon Tabernacle Choir is actually very beautiful, especially their patriotic songs. I would not mind having them as neighbors. Most people in Utah actually instill their young people with a tremendous sense of morality, hard work and responsibility, unlike some other communities and places today. However, admittedly, I do not think their beliefs are...really Biblical, although I have not studied them in any great depth.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I have mixed feelings. Because honestly, many Mormons are very earnest and friendly people, with very strong family values and a sense of community; their Mormon Tabernacle Choir is actually very beautiful, especially their patriotic songs. I would not mind having them as neighbors. Most people in Utah actually instill their young people with a tremendous sense of morality, hard work and responsibility, unlike some other communities and places today. However, admittedly, I do not think their beliefs are...really Biblical, although I have not studied them in any great depth.

:)
If you want to know anything, just ask-- I'm an actual "Mormon", though not one of the 15% that live in Utah (honestly I really dislike Utah as a place to live). For one quick clarification: myself and other LDS Christians believe that salvation comes through Christ & faith in Him. You can't "earn" or "work" your way to heaven- in fact such is a downright laughable idea. Saving faith is a whole life-changing thing, that does result in good things being done. Saving faith is NOT shallowly saying "yeah I believe in Christ" and then continuing about your same-old sinful day.

 

[LouisWilliams]

:)
If you want to know anything, just ask-- I'm an actual "Mormon", though not one of the 15% that live in Utah (honestly I really dislike Utah as a place to live). For one quick clarification: myself and other LDS Christians believe that salvation comes through Christ & faith in Him. You can't "earn" or "work" your way to heaven- in fact such is a downright laughable idea. Saving faith is a whole life-changing thing, that does result in good things being done. Saving faith is NOT shallowly saying "yeah I believe in Christ" and then continuing about your same-old sinful day.

Were you raised Mormon? Or did you convert? What do Mormons believe will happen to non-Mormons, such as mainstream Protestants and Catholics, in the afterlife? Why is Mormonism better than for example, an older denomination of Christianity?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Were you raised Mormon? Or did you convert?

Yes and yes. My family is LDS Christian, but my decision is separate from that. I’ve also throughly studied dozens of different faiths (I’m a nerd that way).

What do Mormons believe will happen to non-Mormons, such as mainstream Protestants and Catholics, in the afterlife?

Those folks are obviously Christians and will be spending eternity dancing around with Christ.
Difference in theology do matter, and obviously I believe that LDS Christian is the most correct, but that doesn’t negate other folks real relationships with Christ.

Why is Mormonism better than for example, an older denomination of Christianity?

Speaking personally, this is where I find Christ the most and the most fulfilling doctrine. Things like belief that God still fully speaks to man, belief that a person’s spirit existed before mortal conception, and respect/acknowledgment of the goodness from God other folks have regardless of thier denomination.

 

[Behold]

Nobody is finally saved before then end of their lives.?

If what you say is true then when Jesus said "we must be born again", on this earth, to avoid judgement that follows, if we are not born again on this earth...then He must have been confused. ????????????

Actually tho, its you that is beyond confused, Episkopos.

 

[Pearl]

If what you say is true then when Jesus said "we must be born again", on this earth, to avoid judgement that follows, if we are not born again on this earth...then He must have been confused. ????????????

Actually tho, its you that is beyond confused, Episkopos.

When we are born again we are already judged. Judged to be acceptable to God.

 

[Behold]

When we are born again we are already judged. Judged to be acceptable to God.

Amen. !

God poured out his Judgement against our sin, on Jesus = The Cross.
God won't judge the born again in Eternity, as God has already Judged Jesus in our place, on Earth.

The born again will never ever meet God as Judge, after we die.
We will only meet Him as He is......our FATHER.