Your Thoughts: Are The NT/OT Gods "Different"?

[Hidden In Him]

I wrote in my notes yesterday , next to OT verses NT , old nature verses new nature, which could be translated carnal verses spiritual. Could perhaps say earthly verses kingdom as well. However it’s not non Christian verses Christian.
I keep having an image of standing way above and viewing the bible as a whole but from a prospective of seeing the bigger picture of what it is conveying. I am still mulling it over. Guess a question is arising ‘ what kind of Christian are we ‘ ?
Rita x

Exactly. And that's one take away as far as application to our daily lives. There is a significant portion of the church that became given over to pursuing earthly rewards after the prosperity message took hold back in the 70s. They reversed the mindset in many, turning them back towards seeking earthly treasures rather than spiritual ones, and this can't help but turn people more carnal in their desires and mentality.

It also fogs the line when it comes to the Christian witness. The sinner can no longer delineate spirituality from carnality in our message, though many sense they can smell a rat, LoL.

 

[Hidden In Him]

What you describe is paganism. Even now they are breeding sheep for sacrifice. Then you ask if their god is my God! Come on.

Not sure I understand your response. See if you can give more detail on what you mean, particularly on the words, "What you describe is paganism."

God bless,
- H

 

[Hidden In Him]

Hello @Hidden In Him,

With respect to you, I do not believe this to be true. God is reaching out His arms in grace and love now, in sending His Son the Lord Jesus Christ as the Saviour of the world, He sent Him not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved, from the power of the grave and the wrath to come.

Malachi ends with the warning by God of coming judgment, and of the coming of the messenger who would prepare the way of the One Who was to come. He came. He came to His own, but His own received Him not, but to as many as received Him gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them who believed on His Name. His death and resurrection followed, and a time of opportunity was given for Israel to repent, and take up their role of Kings and Priest unto God to the nations (Acts). This they did not do, so salvation was sent to the Gentiles (Acts 28:28) for they would hear it. The book of Revelation takes up the prophecy of The Coming One who will come (again) this time as Judge, and of the repentance and redemption of Israel as a nation, and of their divinely appointed role which will then take place among the nations.

So this interval is one of pure grace, the arms of God are open in reconciliation and love to all who will come to Him for salvation, through the Lord Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, the Saviour He has provided.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Charity.

Strangely enough, there's not a word in the above that I disagree with, so you might need to redress it again, and this time pinpoint for me more clearly where my post states something in specific that you find objectionable.

 

[amigo de christo]

Consider yourself permanently invited. :) Lord willing, I'll be doing at least 250-300 of these things, so I hope you've got plenty in your piggy bank, LoL (assuming you do).


Excellent verses in relation to the question.


Hmmm... now while I can agree with your preface here in general, at least on principle, when it comes to Adam and Eve specifically, I think it was more than just Satan causing them guilt. He likely was amplifying it, but they knew they had sinned against God, and they had not yet come to the realization that He is a forgiver of sins, whereas the typical Christian knows He is. I think they understood they made a big boo, boo almost instantly.


Agreed, and it's indeed a mistake. We should run to Him when we sin, not run from Him.


Ok, going to have to pick another bone with you here. I think the Lord fully had in mind to head Abraham off before he made the sacrifice, but He did indeed tell Abraham to sacrifice his son. As you say, it was to serve as a reflection and foreshadowing of God offering His Own, but so far as Abraham knew, the command was real and he was taking it seriously. He was about to do exactly that, as the narrative clearly suggests.


Yes.


Okay that ended very well, Lol. Absolutely. And if I understand your point, yes. It may well be that more people gravitate towards assuming the Old Testament God is "evil" because the same God is worshipped by so many who don't manifest the characteristics of love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, etc. either.

I suppose my driving point is how to counter the argument that one is "merciful" and the other "unmerciful," and your opening passage goes a good ways towards dispelling that myth.

The beauty of it is simple and simply this . When God called me , when he drew me , yeah it was by His grace ,
it was while i was a monster in sin . yeah even using JESUS name i did as well .
But he called me out of darkness , put a new heart , an entire new direction IN my heart . TO KNOW HIM , LOVING TRUTH
and hating sin . GOD DID THAT . marvel not . I DIDNT DO IT . HE DID . yeah . Let the LORD be praised .
ONLY we better continue in The true faith and not be moved away into the all inclusive lie . cause that is bad news .
AND SIN can harden a heart . SO let us be as Our pure and holy example JESUS was . AND his words were GO and sin no more
so were pauls . LET all who name the name of JESUS depart from inquity . Yep . LET it not once be named he says in another place .
WE gotta be every ounce as serious as were they . Confess your faults , and pray ye may be healed .
BUT NEVAH , EVAH EVAH EVAH , say things like OH GOD UNDERSTANDS WE SIN , and play it off like its not big deal .
CAUSE JESUS DIDNT , nor did the apostels .
Last time i checked they were saying if anyone who is called a brother is in a sin , fornication , covetous , etc
dont even eat with such a one . YEAH , i have found that the only pattern that will work for the church
IS the one JESUS SET and the APOSTELS would later , BY THE SPIRIT , teach the same thing expounding more and more .
SO how bout we try and sound a little like they did when it comes to sin and error .
Instead of SEEKER FRIENDLY , LETS just preach the truth , let the leaders of churches preach sound doctrine
and whoever comes in , well either they repent or they will leave . BUT never alter the truth for the sake of numbers . YEAH that DONT WORK
WHILE churches do seem to grow in numbers they sure seem to also grow Farther and farther away FROM THE TRUTH
FROM CHRIST , FROM SOUND DOCTRINE . YEAH , lets return to the simplicity of the original churches .
AND yeah the bible is a wonderful place to find such truth and such examples .

 

[Hidden In Him]

Your Thoughts: Are The NT/OT Gods "Different"?
OP^

Different Gods? No
Different "METHODS" of Teaching? Yes
Difference of "knowledge" of People? Yes

Approx 4,000 years of First Earthly men-
(OT) Beginning without history, past experience to be advantaged, learning Bit by Bit;
About God, Themselves, Animals, The Earth, The Atmosphere.

Jesus' Arrival after 4,000 years...Approx 2,000 years ago. Began Teaching men with a 4,000 year History... with Increased "knowledge", Bit by Bit, in a Specific Order, but on a "Quicker" scale, while "Revealing", "knowledge AND Understanding", that was not was not previously Understood, by OT men. (Not only OT Hebrew men, favored by God... but ALL men, Hebrew/Tribal men and Gentile men).

That ^ is the Difference IN "Teaching Methods";
OF the ONE SAME;
Heavenly Lord God Almighty;
Creator and Maker of ALL Things.

Glory to God,
Taken

Essentially I agree with you, yes. Certainly that the gospel would be opened up to the Gentiles and the sacrifices become superfluous was what Paul called "a mystery hidden in God," and yet it was being revealed by the church during his time. So yes, I think revelation of who the God of the Old Testament truly is was hidden from men until the time of the New Testament. I would also agree that his revelation is progressive, and there is still much to be revealed regarding His ultimate plans for His body in the earth (though some would disagree with me there).

God bless, and thanks for the response.

 

[Hidden In Him]

No tag- no problem.

My apologies! I'll put you on the list for all future threads : )

Remember Israel is a covenanted nation belonging to god for all time. The church is a non nation nation that belongs to jesus! In the Millenial Kingdom Israel will have a sacrificial system again in the temple and the gentile nations will come once a year with an offering to jerusalem or face no rain for the year!.

Ok, agreed. Now, how do you believe the above demonstrates that He had/has two different characters?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Cause JESUS came to show us how to live . Try and remember . Pray hard and pray feverent and see the simplicity
of what is typed next .
DID JESUS ever once say , THE LAW IS BAD , NO its WRONG TO STONE HER . DONT YOU DO IT .
NOPE . THE law is holy just , beautiful , wonderful , i mean GOD GAVE IT ............Right .
SO lets examine what is really going on Here .
JESUS did not tell them , contrary to the law , DONT STONE HER .
WHAT HE DID was simply SHOW US , WHO THE ONLY RIGHTEOUS JUDGE IS . THE ONLY RIGHTEOUS JUDGE
who will judge by His every WORD.
AKA , He came to show us , WE , mere things who all have sinned , are not worthy to deliver

Ok, this is an interesting take, and up to this point here I find it plausible, in a way... but then, the counter to this would be that Paul admonished the churches on their Inability to judge in men's affairs (1 Corinthians 5:1-13).

AKA , He came to show us , WE , mere things who all have sinned , are not worthy to deliver, to execute , to administer the law against anyone . ONLY GOD IS .

Mmm... here I think you would go too far, as per the above. I will agree with you however, that the Righteous Judge was the One doing the judging in NT times, unlike today. Today a board of elders gets together and their personal biases enter in when deciding on a brother and his sins, and what action to take against him. In the early church, the Spirit Himself was pronouncing judgments (Revelation 2:22-23; 1 Corinthians 5:4-5), and also personally executing them as well, such as in the case of Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5:1-13).

Folks have began to follow a love that loves man MORE THAN GOD . THAT LOVE will not save anyone
cause its an accepter of sins .

I agree.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I, too, have struggled to reconcile God's self-expression between the OT & NT. God basically ordered Israel to commit genocide against the Caanites and anyone else in the "Holy Land" after they came out of Egypt. What kind of God would do that. Also, the celebration of 'bashing babies heads against rocks' does not always seem appropriate in the Bible. However, I recognize that I do not understand all things the way God understands. So, God may be the same "yesterday, today and forever" and it it merely my lack of understanding that gets in the way of seeing that.

Thanks for the honest response, Matt.

I believe the annihilation of people like the Canaanites was in keeping with the earthly promises God made to Israel, in keeping with what I was saying in Post #34. They would never have simply willfully excepted being removed from their lands, and since war was inevitable with the Israelites, they had to be destroyed. Other aspects, such as the destruction of even the cattle, was I believe to keep the Israelites from lusting after the property of their enemies roundabout. As for babies, that is indeed a rough one to take, but IMO it again relates back to the earthly promises made to Israel, and the dangers of allowing pagan influence in by allowing the children of idol worshippers to continue among them.

But that last one is, I admit, not the most pleasant verse in scripture, LoL.

 

[Hidden In Him]

BUT NEVAH , EVAH EVAH EVAH , say things like OH GOD UNDERSTANDS WE SIN , and play it off like its not big deal .

Nevah, evah, evah? Lol.

Instead of SEEKER FRIENDLY , LETS just preach the truth , let the leaders of churches preach sound doctrine
and whoever comes in , well either they repent or they will leave . BUT never alter the truth for the sake of numbers . YEAH that DONT WORK
WHILE churches do seem to grow in numbers they sure seem to also grow Farther and farther away FROM THE TRUTH
FROM CHRIST , FROM SOUND DOCTRINE . YEAH , lets return to the simplicity of the original churches .

Agreed!

 

[Brakelite]

Ok, going to have to pick another bone with you here. I think the Lord fully had in mind to head Abraham off before he made the sacrifice, but He did indeed tell Abraham to sacrifice his son. As you say, it was to serve as a reflection and foreshadowing of God offering His Own, but so far as Abraham knew, the command was real and he was taking it seriously. He was about to do exactly that, as the narrative clearly suggests.

I agree with you. Abraham took it absolutely seriously, but there was a part of him who thought, hoped, that somehow God would change His mind, or if not, resurrect Isaac maybe, because Abraham told Isaac,
KJV Genesis 22:8
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Culturally however, such an act of capriciousness on the part of the gods was not unknown to Abraham. He was "coming out of Babylon". He still had much to learn about who this God was that had called him out of his own land, culture, and mindset. Remember, Abraham's father was an idol maker. So I think a major motive for this role exercise was to reveal the true nature of the God Abraham was dealing with. I can imagine Abraham's first reaction when told to sacrifice his son. "Oohhh. , So you are one of those gods." And in the end, God was saying, "no. I'm nothing like those gods."
Jesus is still trying to get that message across today. It's because the world has a misunderstanding of the character of God that they reject Him. All they know and h hear, even from Christians, is judgement... Hellfire... Eternal damnation.... Eternal torture. And they don't want to know, or believe in that God. Neither do I.

 

[Brakelite]

Hmmm... now while I can agree with your preface here in general, at least on principle, when it comes to Adam and Eve specifically, I think it was more than just Satan causing them guilt. He likely was amplifying it, but they knew they had sinned against God, and they had not yet come to the realization that He is a forgiver of sins, whereas the typical Christian knows He is. I think they understood they made a big boo, boo almost instantly.

Adam and Eve thought that God was going to kill them. "In the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die".

 

[Hidden In Him]

I agree with you. Abraham took it absolutely seriously, but there was a part of him who thought, hoped, that somehow God would change His mind, or if not, resurrect Isaac maybe, because Abraham told Isaac,
KJV Genesis 22:8
8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
Culturally however, such an act of capriciousness on the part of the gods was not unknown to Abraham. He was "coming out of Babylon". He still had much to learn about who this God was that had called him out of his own land, culture, and mindset. Remember, Abraham's father was an idol maker. So I think a major motive for this role exercise was to reveal the true nature of the God Abraham was dealing with. I can imagine Abraham's first reaction when told to sacrifice his son. "Oohhh. , So you are one of those gods." And in the end, God was saying, "no. I'm nothing like those gods."
Jesus is still trying to get that message across today. It's because the world has a misunderstanding of the character of God that they reject Him. All they know and h hear, even from Christians, is judgement... Hellfire... Eternal damnation.... Eternal torture. And they don't want to know, or believe in that God. Neither do I.

Ok, now this raises a very interesting debate, your last statements in particular. Up till then we are/were in total agreement.

As for Hellfire, yes, this is a point that makes many assume the God of the Bible is an evil and cruel God... come to think of it, mention is actually made of Hell much more in the New Testament than the Old, at least in name...

But something tells me we will derail the thread if we get too far into that, so maybe we'd better put it off to a later time. ;)

Adam and Eve thought that God was going to kill them. "In the day you eat thereof, you shall surely die".

Agreed!

 

[amadeus]

The Good Shepherd knows his own.

Certainly!

His own sheep are not the ones who crucified Him, killed his prophets and the disciples.
The ones who did that, have their own national God, known as the god of the Jews who they call YHWH.

You seem to have things hidden between the lines here. I will leave those parts alone.

Give God the glory!

 

[Cooper]

"Got Questions", is aligned with Calvinism. Just an FYI.

I guessed they were "OSAS." There seems to be a lot of prominent web sites similarly aligned and it worries me. The same people are on Facebook as well, but I thought the page I pointed to was sound. We need to be careful. Thanks for the tip though. :)

 

[Cooper]

Not sure I understand your response. See if you can give more detail on what you mean, particularly on the words, "What you describe is paganism."

God bless,
- H

It was all about Jewish idolatry. We don't want any part of that. And of course thereby hangs the difference between the god of the OT and the God of the NT. Not forgetting the pre-incarnate Jesus was also present with them, guiding them through the wilderness by day and by night, parting the Red Sea, and sending manna from heaven for example, while all the time they were worshipping their god of war, Baal and Ashtroph (spelling) etc.
.

 

[Mayflower]

The beauty of it is simple and simply this . When God called me , when he drew me , yeah it was by His grace ,
it was while i was a monster in sin . yeah even using JESUS name i did as well .
But he called me out of darkness , put a new heart , an entire new direction IN my heart . TO KNOW HIM , LOVING TRUTH
and hating sin . GOD DID THAT . marvel not . I DIDNT DO IT . HE DID . yeah . Let the LORD be praised .
ONLY we better continue in The true faith and not be moved away into the all inclusive lie . cause that is bad news .
AND SIN can harden a heart . SO let us be as Our pure and holy example JESUS was . AND his words were GO and sin no more
so were pauls . LET all who name the name of JESUS depart from inquity . Yep . LET it not once be named he says in another place .
WE gotta be every ounce as serious as were they . Confess your faults , and pray ye may be healed .
BUT NEVAH , EVAH EVAH EVAH , say things like OH GOD UNDERSTANDS WE SIN , and play it off like its not big deal .
CAUSE JESUS DIDNT , nor did the apostels .
Last time i checked they were saying if anyone who is called a brother is in a sin , fornication , covetous , etc
dont even eat with such a one . YEAH , i have found that the only pattern that will work for the church
IS the one JESUS SET and the APOSTELS would later , BY THE SPIRIT , teach the same thing expounding more and more .
SO how bout we try and sound a little like they did when it comes to sin and error .
Instead of SEEKER FRIENDLY , LETS just preach the truth , let the leaders of churches preach sound doctrine
and whoever comes in , well either they repent or they will leave . BUT never alter the truth for the sake of numbers . YEAH that DONT WORK
WHILE churches do seem to grow in numbers they sure seem to also grow Farther and farther away FROM THE TRUTH
FROM CHRIST , FROM SOUND DOCTRINE . YEAH , lets return to the simplicity of the original churches .
AND yeah the bible is a wonderful place to find such truth and such examples .

AMEN

 

[Hidden In Him]

What you describe is paganism. Even now they are breeding sheep for sacrifice. Then you ask if their god is my God! Come on.

It was all about Jewish idolatry. We don't want any part of that. And of course thereby hangs the difference between the god of the OT and the God of the NT.

I'm trying to put this together, and you seem to be suggesting that they are indeed two entirely different Gods, i.e. the god of the Old Testament and the God of the New, and yet you say Jesus was incarnate among them while they were worshipping another god...

That's a very different package. Are you Gnostic?

 

[Cooper]

I'm trying to put this together, and you seem to be suggesting that they are indeed two entirely different Gods, i.e. the god of the Old Testament and the God of the New, and yet you say Jesus was incarnate among them while they were worshipping another god...

That's a very different package. Are you Gnostic?

Certainly not Gnostic. There is one true God and the Jews crucified Him in word and deed, hence the difference between the god of the OT and the God of the NT.
.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Certainly not Gnostic. There is one true God and the Jews crucified Him in word and deed, hence the difference between the god of the OT and the God of the NT.
.

The Gnostics believe they are two different gods, which is why I was asking.

I agree that there is one true God, the God of the Old Testament, and His Son is Jesus Christ. Do you agree with that statement?

 

[Cooper]

The Gnostics believe they are two different gods, which is why I was asking.

I agree that there is one true God, the God of the Old Testament, and His Son is Jesus Christ. Do you agree with that statement?

Then I was mistaken about the meaning of the word gnostic. Yes, I do believe in the true God and the imposter and this is why the true God revealed himself to the Jews.
.