Colossians 2:14-16 - The Law That Was Against Us

[Tong2020]

I see the prohibition in the fact that the Law condemns their actions, thereby denying them entrance to God's kingdom. The Law makes provision for their sins to be covered, yet, just the same, they need to be justified.

But yes, the Law was not given to give Israel eternal life.

Much love!

Let me share.

Even before the law was given as it was given, in the form of a written code, sins and transgressions are committed by man. And it is a given that such actions were condemned, for if not, man would not gave been called sinners or transgressors. Before the law, it was man’s conscience that condemns them. The law was given at the time of Moses. But it was not given to all peoples, but was given to them whom God had taken out of slavery in Egypt by Moses. So, for the rest of the peoples in the earth, conscience remain to be that condemns them of sin.

God gave the law in covenant with children of Israel through Moses, as a written code which they should perfectly observe and keep and so live by it, and in turn God will prosper them and bless them and make them a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. Now, in any event that one or the whole nation transgress the law, it is the law that condemns them. But, the law provided for them to atone for sin through the Levitical priesthood system of atonement, for the forgiveness of sins, and the judgment of God shall not come upon them, and be reconciled to God.

So we see the goodness of the law. While it condemns them, it provided a way for them to be forgiven of their sins and be reconciled and be at peace with God. Thus, it is not that the law condemns them that it denies them entrance to the Kingdom of God. To the contrary, it kept them under guard and provided them even, a way to be reconciled to God and a chance to live on with peace in covenant with God, and not remain in a state of condemnation and in certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation of God.

But of course we know by now that the law was only a shadow of the realities that which would come later and be revealed. And that is the Gospel story concerning Jesus Christ.

Tong
R1731

 

[Tong2020]

Yes, I decide. I don't accept your premise that the scriptures are special literature such that a person with a high school education is unable to read and/or understand them. Even if someone is not familiar with the Greek or Hebrew language; even if someone has neither the time or skill involved in Biblical exegesis; ALL adult human beings can discern a rational, argument that makes sense of the text. I don't accept an authoritarian based Biblical exegesis for two other reasons: 1) telling me what the text means allows me to disengage from the text such that I never make contact with the truth such that I internalize it. and 2) the Catholic church places itself in the place of God, putting itself in between God's word and its intended audience.

I also don't accept your premise that the Catholic church decided which books belong in our Bible. This is a grave misunderstanding of history. Those who collected the canon into a single book weren't asking "what books do we want in our Bible?" No. They were asking "which books of the Bible did the people of God always understand to be scripture?"

And this is really going to blow your gasket. I believe, I am free to decide for myself which books are scripture. All human beings, including me are obligated by God to believe the truth. And he has given every human being the means to make contact with the truth. If I discover, perchance, that a book of the Bible turns out to be a forgery (hypothetically speaking of course) I am obligated to reject it (not that this would ever happen. The principle of the matter is what I am trying to convey.

God will not allow me to hand my mind over to another person and absolve myself of any responsibility. That is not going to happen. As we are seeing today, authoritarian based sources of knowledge lead to great evil.

You know why?

There’s good reason why God made a new covenant. There’s good reason why God gave the christian the indwelling Holy Spirit. There’s good reason why God put in scriptures, His words, His story, His gospel. And there’s good reason why now, practically all Christians have access to those scriptures and are allowed to read it.

Tong
R1732

 

[Tong2020]

Hi CZ,

Really?? Sooo the Ethiopian eunuch and the disciples on the road to Emmaus needed someone to tell them what the text means but YOU don't.

Keeping it true....

The eunuch have not the indwelling Holy Spirit when he read the scriptures. He was yet not a Christian. But CZ are Christians and are in the new covenant with God, wherein God said regarding it:

I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.”

Still keeping it true....

Here’s what Paul said to Timothy:

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

@CadyandZoe

Tong
R1733

 

[Tong2020]

I'm not saying the Law isn't good, Scripture is very clear on that.

Romans 3:19-20
19) Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

The Law cannot make one righteous, it only brings the knowledge of sin.

Romans 4:15
15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

Because the Law cannot make you righteous, but does condemn your sin, it works wrath. This would be different for the One Who had no sin. The Law gave life. The One Who keeps the Law shall live by doing that. Jesus had life in Himself, and He perfectly kept His Own Law.

Romans 7:9-13
9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13) Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

The Law will not condemn the one who has no sin, but all of us have sin, therefore we are all condemned.

OK, I realize that I was in error!

The Law does not condemn Christ.

But to all the rest of us, it can only condemn. It cannot make us righteous, and none of us are shown righteous according to the Law. For us, the Law makes sin to become "exceedingly sinful", it only declares our guilt.

This is how I think of it.

Much love!

And I did not say either that you said that.

<<<The Law cannot make one righteous, it only brings the knowledge of sin.>>>

Yes the law cannot make a man righteous, only God can. The law is an expression of the righteousness of God or the righteous character of God. So that, whoever observes and keeps all of them are said to be righteous as having attained the righteous requirement of the law. However, even then, it is faith and not the work, that is accounted as righteousness by God. Not to say by that, that works is not good, for the works of the law are indeed good and holy.

And yes, I agree that the law is the knowledge of sin.

<<<.... it works wrath. >>>

The law brings about wrath, but only to those who transgress it. Not to say that, there was anyone under the law, except Jesus, who did not break the law.

<<<...none of us are shown righteous according to the Law. For us, the Law makes sin to become "exceedingly sinful", it only declares our guilt.>>>

I agree.

Tong
1734

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

You may or may not know that verses were added to the Bible centuries later as a reference tool.

Nincompoop text critic.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

This clearly disproves your statement that Christians are under the law. We are under grace, as the main subject of Paul's letter to the Romans and his other letters proves.

True Believers are under God's Grace and God's Law for as long as they live or they are pretenders under neither.

 

[Brakelite]

I have posted this before From Time to time.....seems like I can’t post it too often....


Many Christians give lip service to the fact they live in the New Covenant.

The truth however is that because they fail to realise they are no longer under the law they are really still living in an Old Covenant reality.

Here are 37 scriptures that prove that Christians are not under the law!

Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

Romans
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)

Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)

The law is good, perfect and holy but cannot help you be good, perfect or holy. (Romans 7:7-12)

The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)

The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)

The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)

1 Corinthians
The strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56)

2 Corinthians
The law is a ministry of death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)

The law is a ministry of condemnation. (2 Corinthians 3:9)

The law has no glory at all in comparison with the New Covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:10)

The law is fading away. (2 Corinthians 3:11)

Anywhere the law is preached it produces a mind-hardening and a heart-hardening veil. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15)

Galatians
The law justifies nobody. (Galatians 2:16)

Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)

The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)

To go back to the law after embracing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)

The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)

The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)

The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)

The law functioned in God’s purpose as a temporary covenant from Moses till John the Baptist announced Christ. (Galatians 3:16 & 19, also see… Matthew 11:12-13, Luke 16:16)

If the law worked God would have used it to save us. (Galatians 3:21)

The law was our prison. (Galatians 3:23)

The law makes you a slave like Hagar. (Galatians 4:24)

Ephesians
Christ has abolished the law which was a wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:15)

Philippians
Paul considered everything the law gained him as “skybalon” which is Greek for “poop”. (Philippians 3:4-8)

1 Timothy
The law is only good if used in the right context. (1 Timothy 1:8) (see next verse for the context)

It was made for the unrighteous but not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

Hebrews
The law is weak, useless and makes nothing perfect. (Hebrews 7:18-19)

God has found fault with it and created a better covenant, enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:7-8)

It is obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish. (Hebrews 8:13)

It is only a shadow of good things to come and will never make someone perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)

Well there you have it… 37 scriptures that make a very convincing arguement.

First, I read a few of your comments on those scriptures and disagree with your conclusion as to what they are conveying. Example.
Conflating the old covenant with 'law' is wrong. When God made a covenant with Noah and the animals after the flood, there was no law involved. The covenant was a promise, and all Noah had to do to receive the promise was to believe it.
The same with the covenant with Abraham. God made a promise. All Abraham had to do was believe. Circumcision was given as a sign of the promise. No laws involved.
God continued to repeat the covenant with Isaac, Jacob, and their descendants. His promises never failed. There was nothing "faulty" about the promises. What was faulty was Israel's responses... Their promises to obey when God never asked anyone to make any promises in response to His covenants. They of course failed their promise, and broke the covenant. The law, the priesthood, the sanctuary, the services and annual Sabbaths, were given because Israel transgressed the covenant. They danced before an idol 5 minutes after being told to worship only God. Moses hadn't even gotten down off the mountain. So Moses had to go back up another time and receive another two tables, but also a verbal instruction on how Israel was to approach God in the future... Through a mediator.
We still have to approach God through a Mediator...a High Priest... Jesus our Savior. That's all that's changed. The reason we need a Mediator is the same reason Israel did. Sin. The law... The ten commandments which point out that sin... Have not changed nor ever will.

The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)

True. Yet we are justified, brought into a place of harmony with the law, by faith.
KJV Romans 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But...
KJV Romans 8:3-4
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Righteousness of what law? How can the righteousness of the law be fulfilled in us, by the very purpose and power of God if the law is faulty and done away with? Why would God do such a wonderful thing in His people if the law was faulty?

God has found fault with it ...it? What is "it". The law? God's covenant? There was a fault with God's promises??? Or perhaps something else???... See below...
and created a better covenant, enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:7-8)

It is obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish. (Hebrews 8:13)
Again, you are conflating law with God's promise. The old promise... The old covenant... Was done away not because the covenant/promise was faulty, but because the people to whom it was given were at fault. So a new covenant, a new promise, had to be made with Israel... It is that new promise... Through Christ... Through faith in God power, grace, and mercy, that we can receive that promise...I shall place My laws in their hearts and in their minds.

KJV Hebrews 8:6-10
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

We now live by the righteousness of Christ, and not by the righteousness of the Law. Living by the righteousness of Christ we rest in what he already accomplished at the Cross.

No one in the past or present EVER lived <by the righteousness of the Law> and therefore every saved shall <live by the righteousness of Christ>. There is no such thing the one could be without the other, WHENEVER. Dispensationalism is the great curse and scourge of Christianity that lost its First Love, Jesus Christ God's Free Grace Given unconditionally ... or withheld or taken away irretrievably to the goodwill of the Almighty.

Paul said the one thing --found nowhere anywhere in Christianity anymore--, is the very few who not forever and anon are engaged in trivialities and nonsensical BRABBLE ABOUT THE LAW. Now I tell Christianity today, For whom the Law of God offends, the Saviour must be an offence and shame. Never before as for the PAST 100 YEARS has God's Law so offended at the most characteristic of Revealed and Written Command : OF GOD, the Fourth Commandment, at God's Command "concerning the day The Seventh Day", "Sabbath Day OF THE LORD GOD".

And it is because it is the "Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD" and not so much for being "the day The Seventh Day", "Sabbath of the week", THAT IT IS SO OFFENSIVE and loathsome to the antinomians and Antichrist.

Because of the Fourth, the Sabbath Commandment, and of NO OTHER, must TODAY be said clearly and loud: 1Timothy 6:3, "If any man teach otherwise and consent not to wholesome words, [even] the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness (God's Commandments); 4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5 perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that WINNING ARGUMENTS AGAINST GOD’S LAW is godliness: From such withdraw thyself. 6 But (to accept) godliness (God's Law) with contentment is great (real) gain. 11 Therefore thou, O man of God, flee from these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit (godliness - God's Law) is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, 23 meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another."

It is only when it is "love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance" expressed with and characteristic of the Sabbath of the Lord commanded, that the hater of God's Law says it is not "godliness" or it is not of "the fruit of the Spirit", but is affectation, provoking and vainglory.

But the LORD shall judge in his own time.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

 

[Brakelite]

I have posted this before From Time to time.....seems like I can’t post it too often....


Many Christians give lip service to the fact they live in the New Covenant.

The truth however is that because they fail to realise they are no longer under the law they are really still living in an Old Covenant reality.

Here are 37 scriptures that prove that Christians are not under the law!

Acts
The law is an unbearable yoke. (Acts 15:10)

Romans
The law reveals sin but cannot fix it. (Romans 3:20)

If the law worked then faith would be irrelevant. (Romans 4:14)

The law brings wrath upon those who follow it. (Romans 4:15)

The purpose of the law was to increase sin. (Romans 5:20)

Christians are not under the law. (Romans 6:14)

Christians have been delivered from the law. (Romans 7:1-6)

The law is good, perfect and holy but cannot help you be good, perfect or holy. (Romans 7:7-12)

The law which promises life only brings death through sin. (Romans 7:10)

The law makes you sinful beyond measure. (Romans 7:13)

The law is weak. (Romans 8:2-3)

1 Corinthians
The strength of sin is the law (1 Corinthians 15:56)

2 Corinthians
The law is a ministry of death. (2 Corinthians 3:7)

The law is a ministry of condemnation. (2 Corinthians 3:9)

The law has no glory at all in comparison with the New Covenant. (2 Corinthians 3:10)

The law is fading away. (2 Corinthians 3:11)

Anywhere the law is preached it produces a mind-hardening and a heart-hardening veil. (2 Corinthians 3:14-15)

Galatians
The law justifies nobody. (Galatians 2:16)

Christians are dead to the law. (Galatians 2:19)

The law frustrates grace. (Galatians 2:21)

To go back to the law after embracing faith is “stupid”. (Galatians 3:1)

The law curses all who practice it and fail to do it perfectly. (Galatians 3:10)

The law has nothing to do with faith. (Galatians 3:11-12)

The law was a curse that Christ redeemed us from. (Galatians 3:13)

The law functioned in God’s purpose as a temporary covenant from Moses till John the Baptist announced Christ. (Galatians 3:16 & 19, also see… Matthew 11:12-13, Luke 16:16)

If the law worked God would have used it to save us. (Galatians 3:21)

The law was our prison. (Galatians 3:23)

The law makes you a slave like Hagar. (Galatians 4:24)

Ephesians
Christ has abolished the law which was a wall of hostility (Ephesians 2:15)

Philippians
Paul considered everything the law gained him as “skybalon” which is Greek for “poop”. (Philippians 3:4-8)

1 Timothy
The law is only good if used in the right context. (1 Timothy 1:8) (see next verse for the context)

It was made for the unrighteous but not for the righteous. (1 Timothy 1:9-10)

Hebrews
The law is weak, useless and makes nothing perfect. (Hebrews 7:18-19)

God has found fault with it and created a better covenant, enacted on better promises. (Hebrews 8:7-8)

It is obsolete, growing old and ready to vanish. (Hebrews 8:13)

It is only a shadow of good things to come and will never make someone perfect. (Hebrews 10:1)

Well there you have it… 37 scriptures that make a very convincing arguement.

There are several other of your points above I could take issue with, either in part or in whole, but I have no desire to bore everyone with interminable critical essays upon points of theology understood by children, and not used as defense mechanisms for disobeying and denying God's authority in giving the world His commandments.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

"The fruit of the Spirit IS love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no Law of God." That says, declares, confirms, the LAW (of God) IS: love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance; IS, the fruit of the Spirit, IS, godliness.

They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh; they that are not Christ's, NEVER WILL, because they abhor God's Law, because God's Law commands the flesh to be crucified. But godliness with contentment gains the upper-hand over the flesh and crucifies it.

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Romans 9:30What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

What do you say was Paul saying that Israel was pursuing? Well we can say salvation. But, to be more accurate, righteousness, the righteousness that they know of, that is, the righteousness of the law (law of Moses)

They were pursuing both the righteousness of the Law and ultimate Salvation--a place where their sins would be completely forgiven, and they would no longer be subject to the curse of sin, which is death. Sadly, many Jews just pursued the righteousness of the Law, thinking that eternally applying themselves to rules of the Law they would obtain eternal life. But that was never the purpose of the Law. The purpose of the Law was to show that they had to rely on Messiah's coming to achieve for them what they could not do. They had to repent of their own inabilities and cast themselves upon the righteousness of one better than themselves.

The Gentiles were not pursuing righteousness according to v.31, more so the righteousness of the law which is either foreign to them or do not believe it, being not circumcised.

Tong2020 said: ↑
What is the reason why Israel has not attained what they were pursuing? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works.

But you have to know what this means, and not just quote it. You have to recognize that Paul was speaking of the majority who had turned away from faith to pursue salvation through the rituals of the Law. And this only amplified their own flaws, and incapacities to obtain eternal life. The only way to properly pursue the righteousness of the Law was through faith, which extended beyond the Law to trust in someone who would forgive them for their failure under the Law. As such, it was a higher righteousness they should've been pursuing when they properly sought after the righteousness of the Law.

The verse says plainly, it is because they pursued it as if it were by works and not by faith. I could not have said it any clearer than the verse.

Paul was referring to Israel as a whole or as a nation. Their past generations have been led astray by their leaders who were at the seat of Moses, by false teachings, and who had made for doctrines the commandments of men. And this had become their tradition for which the generation of Paul’s time hold to and believe as their way to attain righteousness. They knew not really about the true Messiah, even while their scriptures had a lot about Him. Their leaders failed to teach them the truth. Either due to ignorance, or deliberate neglect, or selfish self-interest and gain. One thing is sure, they have gone astray from the truth, so that what faith they have, is not that which if from God, but from men.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Why was it that the Gentiles, while even not pursuing what Israel was pursuing, had attained it? They really did not attain what Israel was pursuing. What they obtained is righteousness, a righteousness that is by faith. Obviously, they obtained such righteousness because of faith and by faith.

Israel was old as godly nations go, and had lost their zeal for true righteousness. The Gentiles hadn't even started yet. But all nations basically end up in the same place, losing their desire, as a nation, for true righteousness.

True righteousness comes by pursuit of forgiveness, something that cannot be earned. The Law earned blessings, but could not earn eternal life. That had to come through God's forgiveness, which is the righteousness of faith. But OT faith was not complete until Christ had offered himself as an eternal atonement for sin.

We learn that the righteousness God seeks after men is the righteousness of faith.

Tong2020 said: ↑
What was Israel doing in the pursuit of it? Israel was pursuing the righteousness of the law not by faith but by works. They thought of righteousness as if it were attained by works. As such, they strive to attain it by the works of the law. And that is, what is called self righteousness. So that even if they attain it, they will never be justified by it. It was a wrong righteousness, that which is of man, something to boast about, though still not to God, but only to man.

I agree. The righteousness of faith is a desire for forgiveness--not self-confidence.

For me, the righteousness of faith is the righteousness in surrendering and trusting your life and will, with all heart, body, mind and soul, to God, and not to self or to any other else other than God, acknowledging Him as the only creator and the owner of all that there is, including him. It is devoid of anything concerning self - trust, effort, reliance, confidence, desires. It is a total surrender of oneself to God. If I were to look for a man wherein this can be found, of course it would be the man Jesus.

Tong2020 said: ↑
How is it that Israel was pursuing it as Paul say they do? They were led astray into believing that righteousness is attained by the works of the law, by the false teachings of mainly by no less than their leaders, such as the Pharisees.

Not just the leaders, but the masses in the nation pursued doing things their own way, instead of casting themselves on the mercy of God. They were self-satisfied and content in their own works. They did not pay heed to the fact that all true righteousness comes from the word of God.

Yes, for that was their tradition and what their tradition had taught them to be the truth. They were ignorant of the words of God, of the truth, especially about the promised Messiah.

Tong2020 said: ↑
Not false. I find no reason and sense for God to put an obstacle for them, whom He intended to make a kingdom of priests and a holy nation.

It was Paul who says the law is not of faith. I just repeat it, perhaps every time it is needed to be pointed out.

Again, true obedience to the Law in its time was based on faith. Forgiveness from God was pursued under the Law, although later, when the nation apostacized, they stopped feeling any sense of remorse for going their own way. So faith was *supposed* to be under the Law, but in the end, Israel relied on the works of the Law to get what the Law said they cannot get on their own. They needed both the mercy of God and the atonement of Christ. The Law could only get them temporary blessings.

Perhaps. But the idea that the law was given with the intention to be an obstacle for them concerning their salvation is absurd, if not an offense to the goodness and righteousness of God, at least to my thinking.

Tong
R1746

 

[Tong2020]

Tong2020 said: ↑
Of course, faith that is referred to there in Gal.3:12 is that faith that comes from God, that by which God saves and through which man is saved. And this faith had come to man at various times, in various ways, to men chosen by God and willed to give His grace of salvation, giving them this faith, such as Abraham. This is the same faith that was yet to come to Israel, which Paul talks about in Gal.3:23. This faith comes to them through and in Jesus Christ, the word of God.

Well, it is in my reading. I don’t subscribe really to what you say about Paul as using an abbreviated form of “Faith in Christ for Eternal Life”. I think if a Bible translator would have that in their version, it would in all likelihood be criticized as an addition. Just an observation, I find not one Bible version among 60 that I checked.

You checked *60 Bible versions!* Wow! That's pretty incredible. Checking Bible versions, however, will show, in every case, the same example of "abbreviation" that Paul used because every version shows the same way that Paul said it! If Paul in any version abbreviated something, he did it in all versions, because all versions are based on the same historical manuscripts. Of course there are different manuscripts, but they are all in pretty close agreement.

So I don't know why you would be checking *60 versions* when they would only tell you the same thing, using the words that I say abbreviate, indicating that when Paul said "Faith" in this particular context, he was speaking of "Christian Faith" that leads to eternal life? It would've been time better spent checking commentaries, rather than other versions!

I just wanted to see if there is any version, especially the not literal translations, the paraphrased versions, have even a shade of your idea of “abbreviated form”. But I found not one. Not even the amplified version which I expected to have rendered the verse in expanded form rather than what you claim is an abbreviated form. But still, not a shade of such. Anyway, it only took me a minute to do that. And it sure was not a waste of time for me even if would have taken me an hour. For I did it in good faith and as a matter of due diligence concerning the truth.

Tong
R1747

 

[Behold]

Seriously? God found fault with His own law, which Paul said was holy, just, and good?

The Law is good.
The Commandments are perfect.
But, they have no power = no ability to impart or impute or cause, RIGHTEOUSNESS.

They were not given to make you holy, they were given to show you what you are NOT.
Its the LAW that shows you your SIN.
So, that which shows you that you are unholy, has no power to make you holy, it only has power to expose you as you are, = SINNER.

So, God made a NEW COVENANT that replaced that one, by resolving it.

See, the Old Covenant shows you that you are unrighteous, and the NEW Covenant (New Testament) offers you the only way to become RIGHTEOUS.

John 14:6

 

[Brakelite]

The Law is good.
The Commandments are perfect.
But, they have no power = no ability to impart or impute or cause, RIGHTEOUSNESS.

They were not given to make you holy, they were given to show you what you are NOT.
Its the LAW that shows you your SIN.
So, that which shows you that you are unholy, has no power to make you holy, it only has power to expose you as you are, = SINNER.

So, God made a NEW COVENANT that replaced that one, by resolving it.

See, the Old Covenant shows you that you are unrighteous, and the NEW Covenant (New Testament) offers you the only way to become RIGHTEOUS.

I agree with most of what you have said here. But you are still confused I think as to what and why God made the covenant in the first place.
Do you know when and to whom the first covenant was made? And more importantly, do you know why?

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

The Gentiles were not pursuing righteousness according to v.31, more so the righteousness of the law which is either foreign to them or do not believe it, being not circumcised.

Circumcision of the flesh has nothing to do with or in common with the circumcision OF CHRIST although BOTH have before Christ been the Laws of God but only the one, still, is the Law of God. The circumcision of the flesh used to be specific for a time, and therefore specifically, forever no longer exists for the People of God. Circumcision of the heart always has been specifically for the People of God, and therefore never for any not of the People of God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I just wanted to see if there is any version, especially the not literal translations, the paraphrased versions, have even a shade of your idea of “abbreviated form”. But I found not one. Not even the amplified version which I expected to have rendered the verse in expanded form rather than what you claim is an abbreviated form. But still, not a shade of such. Anyway, it only took me a minute to do that. And it sure was not a waste of time for me even if would have taken me an hour. For I did it in good faith and as a matter of due diligence concerning the truth.

Tong
R1747

A waste of time, brother. All versions would give the same translation. If Paul abbreviated in one version, he did it in all versions. The Amplified Version simply adds synonyms--it does not interpret. It clarifies the translation. It would clarify the abbreviated term that Paul used.

Different versions do not explain when Paul abbreviates something. It is the *context* that determines that. If Paul described or inferred two kinds of faith, one OT and another NT, then his reference to *the* Faith immediately requires that we select which faith would be *the* one.

I'm just giving you an example of how it works. But it's still amazing to me that you looked up 60 versions! You truly are an excellent student of the Scriptures, and I mean that. Most of us might check only 2 or 3 versions.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Gentiles were not pursuing righteousness according to v.31, more so the righteousness of the law which is either foreign to them or do not believe it, being not circumcised.

I was saying that the Jews were pursuing, under the Law, eternal righteousness--righteousness that leads to eternal life. I wasn't talking about the Gentiles in this regard.

For purposes of this discussion, it's important that you recognize I predicate my arguments on the reality of the "Jewish Hope" under the Law. They looked forward to a situation in which all of their enemies were conquered, and they would never again be abused by others.

Israel's regular failure under the Law frustrated and seemed to prolong this process, when in reality, Paul said they could *never* obtain their goal in their present condition. Christ had to come and separate them into two camps, one to be judged and the other to lead the nation to the Promised Land.

The "Faith" that Paul, therefore, spoke of in abbreviated form referred to something that was not present under the Law and could never be present under the Law. Even the presence of "faith" under the Law could not accomplish this. And so, the "Faith" Paul spoke of was clearly NT Faith.

The verse says plainly, it is because they pursued it as if it were by works and not by faith. I could not have said it any clearer than the verse.

My whole point in this discussion is that Paul cannot be properly understood if we don't understand his words properly in context, and recognize that Paul uses "shortcuts" to avoid going down endless rabbit holes, or indulging in excessive chatter. Paul had an enormous amount of information, and had to reduce it somehow to manageable bits.

When Paul spoke of not being able to be saved by "works," he was reducing the kinds of "works" down to "works of the Law." He expected his readers to understand that, because that was the context. He was not saying "works" only exist under the Law, or that all "works" under the Law are useless in leading towards Salvation. He was only saying that in general, "works" under the Law were intended to fall short of bringing Salvation because works of the Law consist of flawed human works that are rendered illegitimate as far as obtaining Salvation.

Paul was referring to Israel as a whole or as a nation. Their past generations have been led astray by their leaders who were at the seat of Moses, by false teachings, and who had made for doctrines the commandments of men. And this had become their tradition for which the generation of Paul’s time hold to and believe as their way to attain righteousness. They knew not really about the true Messiah, even while their scriptures had a lot about Him. Their leaders failed to teach them the truth. Either due to ignorance, or deliberate neglect, or selfish self-interest and gain. One thing is sure, they have gone astray from the truth, so that what faith they have, is not that which if from God, but from men.

Yes, the leaders and the masses in the nation went astray and lost the purpose for which the Law was given. But the Law was never given to provide them with eternal justification--only with a temporary justification until Christ came to bring eternal justification. Somewhere, over time, Israel lost this sense of Messianic Salvation, or corrupted it, thinking that Salvation would come by their own record under the Law, through animal sacrifices. But they were always intended only to be a temporary justificatioin.

We learn that the righteousness God seeks after men is the righteousness of faith.

Yes, Israel had lost their proper sense of temporary justification under the Law, which was indeed a righteousness by faith. But it was only ever designed to be a temporary justification.

When Israel lost their true sense of reliance upon God for mercy, and trusted only in their perfunctory observance of animal sacrifice, they became dependent on works without faith. None of this means that true faith would bring eternal justification. What it really meant is that they couldn't even have *temporary justification* under the Law apart from faith.

For me, the righteousness of faith is the righteousness in surrendering and trusting your life and will, with all heart, body, mind and soul, to God, and not to self or to any other else other than God, acknowledging Him as the only creator and the owner of all that there is, including him. It is devoid of anything concerning self - trust, effort, reliance, confidence, desires. It is a total surrender of oneself to God. If I were to look for a man wherein this can be found, of course it would be the man Jesus.

Yes, that's true Faith, but not *the* Faith that Paul was referring to that had not yet come under the Law. The best faith in the world under the Law could still not qualify for Eternal Life. Christ had to come and become the object to that Faith for that to happen. The best faith in the world still required Christ's work as its object to obtain Eternal Salvation.

Yes, for that was their tradition and what their tradition had taught them to be the truth. They were ignorant of the words of God, of the truth, especially about the promised Messiah.

Perhaps. But the idea that the law was given with the intention to be an obstacle for them concerning their salvation is absurd, if not an offense to the goodness and righteousness of God, at least to my thinking.
Tong
R1746

What you're doing is calling Paul absurd for saying this. I'm not saying it on my own. The NT authors all indicated the Law proved the innate sinfulness of Fallen Mankind, and proved they were ineligible for Eternal Life apart from Faith in the Finished Work of Christ. I've quoted you the verses. Calling them absurd doesn't prove anything other than you refuse to believe NT teaching. Sorry, but that's how I see it.