Robots and Will Worshipers
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
The problem is that God did know Adam would sin, because we know the Cross happened before creation. Adam did not sin before creation. Satan did not rebel before creation. However the Cross did, because it was God on the Cross before creation.
BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
I really don't think a created persons freewill can prove God wrong concerning anything that the True God sees before he created anything. So if God knew the Angel who became Satan and the first human who's name was Adam was going to make the choices they made before even creating them, as you're saying, then God made those choices for them, because as you said, they had no freewill before being created, to make any kind of choices of their own, and after they were created they would only be able to make the choices that God decided for them before they were created. In other words they would be able only to make the choice to be disobedient, if they had the ability to be obedient they would have been able to prove the True God wrong concerning what the True God saw before creating anything. So if what you're saying is true then actually it wasn't really their choice, it was the path the True God chose for them because like you said they can't make choices before creation was in existence. The point I'm making is I disagree with you, the True God doesn't decide our paths for us he lets us decide whether we love the True God enough to exercise faith in him. We can't be truly deciding for ourselves that we have faith in the True God because of our love for him if the True God has decided our paths for us before being in existence, because that would be God choosing before we are even in existence. How is that us choosing, that we have faith in the True God because of our love for him? God is infallible in every way, so when the True God looks into the future and sees something that will happen before creation is in existence, then that's what's going to happen, it's impossible for the True God to be wrong about anything he sees concerning the future. So like I said, I don't believe God looked into the future to see if that particular Angel would become a Satan and a Devil nor do I believe that he looked into the future, to see if the first human Adam, was going to be disobedient. God looking into the future like that is the True God making the choice for us to be evil or sinful and God doesn't choose for us to be evil or sinful. We make those decisions, not God. As I said and the scriptures prove chaos, disunity, hate doesn't come from God, but I would have to believe that chaos, disunity and hate does come from God if I'd agreed that God looked into the future and knew that particular Angel would become a Satan and a Devil, because if you are right and God saw all the wickedness that would happen before creation was in existence then the True God deliberately set all that wickedness in motion when he began creating. So that would mean all wickedness comes from God and I don't believe that, but it's obvious you do by the way you believe, which is why you and I disagree.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Adam had free will. God never forced Adam to disobey. That is my point. Satan does not have free will. Satan is not even relevant. God allowed Satan to rebel. It did not matter if God knew or did not know what God would do. Seems kind of pointless to prepare for something just in theory without knowing all things. Seems pointless to say God did not know what God would do. To extend that to God did not know what Adam would do is only making God look limited and was only a scientist with a theory that had multiple outcomes. God being the author of sin is unavoidable. This is all of God's creation and no one snuck in and altered His creation while He was not looking. The point is God left sin up to free will and Adam's free will choice, even knowing the outcome, and God already had a solution.
We cannot put limits on God to make Him look better. The limits look even worse.
Those who dwell on the point God allowed sin to happen add to the desire of those who want to reject God’s solution. God does not force us to accept Him even if we know God allowed evil to happen. Looking at God that way, is what Satan does, and totally rejecting God and the reality of the Atonement is what Satan wants.
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BARNEY BRIGHT
Well-Known Member
My point is, that Adams free will can't prove God wrong because, God is infallible. So if God looked into the future before creating Adam and saw him sin as you're saying, it was in Gods mind that Adam sinned, not that Adam had sinned, since Adam didn't exist yet, so Adam couldn't make a choice to sin since he didn't exist yet. Then after God created Adam, it was impossible for Adam to make any choice but to be disobedient since that's what God saw in his mind before creating Adam, meaning Adam never had the ability to be obedient because if he did then Adam, had the ability to prove God wrong and that's impossible. So I disagree that God looked into the future to see if Adam would sin. That would mean God chose Adams path for him and God doesn't choose a path of disobedience for anyone.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Adam did not sin. Adam ate. Sin was the result, not the action.
No, what God knows is not determinism. That is impossible. If Adam never ate, that would be what God knew. Determinism is God forcing humans to do what God knows. Show me a verse that states God forces what He knows, and thus it happens. Free will is not forcing humanity to do. Some think God forced Adam to eat. Show me a verse that proves God forced Adam to eat. God gave Adam a choice to not do a thing. "Of all the trees of the Garden, thou may freely eat." That was free will.
Now if God had said, that Adam had to eat that fruit every day, and the day he stopped, sin would start, that would be determinism. Adam would have to forever maintain an order, and some random act (fate) would force Adam one day to stop obeying. That would not be free will.
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Why can He not create a rock so massive, that He cannot lift nor control it? Precisely because the affirmative is unintelligible. A rock which requires Him to have insufficient power can't exist, because He does have omnipotence - all power.
Likewise, He is unable to create a being that has a certain amount of autonomy, because it is unintelligible. An inferior being which requires God to not be all power cannot exist, because He does have omnipotence - all power.
Authentic love must be free... interesting phrase. Free from what? Do you mean free from God's control? That authentic love must not be caused by Love?
Romans 9:13
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
1 John 4:19
We love him, because he first loved us.
A logical conclusion to Determinism is that God is the One who causes authentic love.
That's absurd. God gives his creation dominion. You can not have it both ways. Either we really do and will rule over the Earth or we don't. You would make God a slave to his own power.
Yet Esau's likely in heaven. So God didn't hate him, he hated his actions and attitude, and therefore did not bless Esau initially.
It doesn't say we love him because we have no other option. We return his love with a much weaker love of our own.
"Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister."
Salvation is conditional on our response to God. It's not just done to us. That would be spiritual rape.
So you are to literally hate your brothers and sisters and wife?
If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. Luke 14:26
As for husbands, love your wives just like Christ loved the church and gave himself for her.” — Ephesians 5:25
So it seems if you are correct we have a direct contradiction in scripture...
God said He hated Esau, therefore Renniks concluded that if I'm correct, then there is a contradiction in Scripture. (???)
If I am correct, you just made some sort of cheap strawman argument.
As for your question on the whereabouts of 'Scripture saying God controls everything', I propose that we don't have the right as Christians to challenge that. Since Scripture teaches that God controlled everything in creation in the beginning, God controlling everything should be regarded as the default position of the Bible.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
So, Renniks, where does Scripture say God isn't controlling?
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A man can have dominion over the earth. But it is not without God over him.
Proverbs 16:1
The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the Lord.
Proverbs 16:9
A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps.
Wow, so absolutely no answers to my questions..no looking at the context, just dismiss it without looking into what it means in Romans.
And God creating somehow equals all controlling?
How does one arrive at that conclusion?
From the first time God gave Adam responsibilitys, we see him given free will. He names the animals. God didn't choose the names for him.
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
If I have dominion over something, that means I have multiple free choices about how to manage that thing. Where does scripture say God isn't all controlling? Pretty much everywhere. Every time man is given a command or repromanded for doing the wrong thing, or God says he has been disobeyed. God can't be disobeyed if he's controlling all the activities of everyone. For that matter, he can't be obeyed either. Because obedience suggests a choice.
Well, you certainly haven't gotten any less predictable.
Proverbs aren't a place to find your theology, but:
To humans belong the plans of the heart,
but from the Lord comes the proper answer of the tongue.
2 All a person’s ways seem pure to them,
but motives are weighed by the Lord.
3 Commit to the Lord whatever you do,
and he will establish your plans.
See the condition? Yes, we plan but if we don't commit it to God, our plans won't be the correct ones. Not only does this not suggest determinism, it suggests the opposite.
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