Yep, while the scriptures are true and inspired by HolySpirit, they are not intended to take the place of the teacher. But that is exactly what many within the christian religious institution have done. They have replaced the teacher with the textbook.
The Great Danger Of Being Out Of Church
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Yep, while the scriptures are true and inspired by HolySpirit, they are not intended to take the place of the teacher. But that is exactly what many within the christian religious institution have done. They have replaced the teacher with the textbook.
Selene
New Member
Hello Jiggfly,
Isn't this textbook (the Bible) the Word of God? If we are to listen only to those who have the Holy Spirit in them and not the Bible (or textbook as you put it), how can we determine who actually has the Holy Spirit when all of them are claiming to have Him? For example, Person A says that Jesus is God claims that he has the Holy Spirit, and then Person B says that Jesus is NOT God but also claims to have the Holy Spirit.....how do we know which of the two is speaking the truth when both claim to have the Holy Spirit? Perhaps, we need to look in the Bible and see where Jesus Christ sent the Holy Spirit.
In Christ,
Selene
You seem to be misunderstanding my post and maybe I should have clarified that the "teacher" that I referred to in my post is HolySpirit (I will edit the correction). We should listen to HolySpirit, he does communicate through others via teaching but He will also communicate directly with us. Eventually we should mature to the place where we no longer need another (with exception to HolySpirit) to teach us.
Note that I did not say to ignore or throw out the textbook but correct understanding can only come via HolySpirit our teacher.
Selene
New Member
You seem to be misunderstanding my post and maybe I should have clarified that the "teacher" that I referred to in my post is HolySpirit (I will edit the correction). We should listen to HolySpirit, he does communicate through others via teaching but He will also communicate directly with us. Eventually we should mature to the place where we no longer need another (with exception to HolySpirit) to teach us.
Note that I did not say to ignore or throw out the textbook but correct understanding can only come via HolySpirit our teacher.
Hi Jiggfly,
This still does not answer my question. How can we know which of the two is speaking the truth if both of them claim to have the Holy Spirit and both of them can even point to Scripture to support their views? I agree with you that the Bible should not be thrown out. However, I don't see the Bible as the sole authority. I don't believe in Sola Scriptura (Scripture alone) because the Bible cannot interpret itself. I also agree that we should listen to the Holy Spirit. The problem, however, is that too many people with different doctrines are saying that they have the Holy Spirit in them and they are communicating with the Holy Spirit. So, how does one know that it is truely the Holy Spirit and not your own spirit who is speaking?
In Christ,
Selene
forgivenWretch
New Member
Hebrews 10 says Christians are to stir one another up to good deeds, “not forsaking our own assembling together” (v. 25)
Listen to what HolySpirit says about the person and their opinion of the scriptures. He will let you know if what they are teaching is true or not. The best way to guard against false doctrine is to get out of religion altogether and then you won't be subject to the false doctrines that it propagates.
Yes indeed but if you notice the writer says there is no more need for any religious ceremony or liturgy because of what Christ has done through the cross.
Look at what Paul said about gathering together.
But now when I mention this next issue, I cannot praise you. For it sounds as if more harm than good is done when you meet together. 1Cor. 11:17
[font="'trebuchet ms"]There is very little instruction on how we should meet, but the new testament is full of instruction on how we should greet. [/font]
The observation and question re various and even conflicting views by those who each claim to be taught or led by the Spirit, is indeed one that must be come to grips with. Here's just a smattering of base thoughts on it....
God will not contradict Himself. That does not mean that persons will not be told different things at different times. That is wholly different that contradiction, as it can happen without any contradition whatsoever.
God is one. One mind. One baptism. One spirit. Etc.. I'm sure that we are familiar with the various scripture verses that state that God does not change, etc..
God is not bi-polar, or multi-polar, or that defies the very definition of God.
The scritpures can be read, memorized, studied, etc., but that does not give spiritual wisdom or insight. Scripture is rife with this truth also. The Pharisees knew the word quite well, but were very blind spiritually. Christ stated this a number of times, and in no uncertain terms! This was also spoken of in the OT, quite often. And Paul even quotes one of those many times from Isaiah. So obviously, reading the word of God can be completely useless to us spiritually. Or it can be rewarding beyond measure. The scriptures state also that it is the Spirit (God) who opens the spiritual eyes. Thus, the obvious conclusion is that without the God opening our spiritual eyes while we read the word of God, we will come to erroneous conclusions. To aver otherwise is to be devoid of even basic understanding and dictionary definitions of words that we use! Spiritual things are NOT a democracy. It is not a majority vote of the citizens. God has His truth. We must have it too, "having been conformed to his truth", the word states. The word also states that when we are one in the God, anything that we don't have agreement one, those periphery things, God will bring us into unity on them. This then begs the obvious question, "why don't we see this happening?" Again, there can be but one answer: we are not all walking in God, but are listening to various voices. Christ stated that those who are born of God, hear His voice, and that they don't hear the voice of others, but do what God's voice tells them. This then demands the conclusion that, just as the apostles wrote in the NT episltes, there are false teachers who lead many astray, teaching doctrines of demons. If they are not teaching the doctrine of God, as evidenced by teaching contrary to God's truth in it, then there aren't any other options for where that doctrine came from! That is a very, very basic of spiritual things: God or Satan. Light or darkness. Clean or unclean. There is no such thing as partial God, or partial Satan, or partial light, etc.. This is why the word states that those new in Christ are yet carnally minded, and that the carnal mind is at enmity with God, so the new in Christ need to remew their mind in Christ Jesus their Lord and Savior. We cannot renew it in Dobson's teachings, Graham's teachings, Colson's teachings, etc.. This is why the scriptures state that those born of God actually have the mind of God. Powerful. But not lived by most, as the proof in the pudding completely reveals. Tragic. We have no need that any man teach us ("do you teach yourselves?"), for we have been given God without measure. That's a fact for those born of God. We are "partakers of the divine nature." That's a fact for those who are actually born of God. "God gives himself without measure". That's a fact for those born of God. Apes give birth to apes. Apples to apples. People to people. God to .....
Well, are you born of God or not? "God is spirit" Christ said. And He said that you must be born of spirit to enter heaven. You MUST be born of God Himself. This is why Christ was the firstborn of many BRETHREN.
Scripture is to be rightly divided, it states. And that is done SOLELY by the Spirit opening our eyes to it. We cannot acquire this on our own, even while seeking the Spirit in it through aides, commentaries, lexicons, etc.. "comparing spiritual with spiritual". That does NOT mean comparing Greek words, Hebrew words, commentaries, etc.. Also, look at 2 Peter 1:20. It sheds no little light on these facts. "knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation". And everybody seems to stop right there. OK, let's just take that, then. What does "private" mean? It has various meanings. Somebody has duped us into fully and exclusively believing that it means our own, or personal. So let's look at the context, OK?
(2Pe 1:16) For not having followed fables having been cunningly devised, but becoming eyewitnesses of the majesty of Jesus Christ, we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord.
Scripture is not fables, but the word of God. It is the truth. It is spiritual fact. As such, it teaches spiritual and actual facts of events also.
(2Pe 1:17) For He received honor and glory from God the Father, when was borne to Him a voice from the excellent glory, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
We see that the NT speaks of the fulfillment of the OT. As such, it is claimed to be scritpure, to be spiritual truth and fact, in these two verses.
(2Pe 1:18) And we heard this voice being borne from Heaven, being with Him in the holy mountain.
This speaks volumes, in light of the OT and God speaking to Israel from the mountain, but they stopped up their ears in fear and whatnot, and wanted God to speak to them through their leader(s). But God had told them to harken to His VOICE. And we see the terrible fruit of such a heart state, exampled in the wickedness and sins that God had to punish for 40 years in the wilderness. And they persisted in that state even after entering the promised land. Such is the state of Christendom even today, for they insist on listening to their leaders instead of hearing God directly. And just look at the sinfulness, the wicked statistics of Christendom. Only a complete fool would state that the church is not living in wickedness. Even our secular news is filled with these facts every day regarding Christendom's wickeness that everyone sees, but we are unwilling to admit are ours. Tragic. How great is that blindness.
(2Pe 1:19) We also have a more sure Word of prophecy, to which you do well to take heed, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the Daystar arises in your hearts,
The scriptural prophecies are even more sure. We are to take heed to them. They are the spiritual light until God's personal light is actually in our hearts. And we saw that it was just previously stated that they were witnesses of thoe prophecies coming to fruition. Thus, the conclusions regarding the previous verses are fully varified yet again by this verse.
(2Pe 1:20) knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture came into being of its own private interpretation.
And that is the foundation for this verse, isn't it! Scripture is not of it's own interpretation, but we are to compare scripture with scripture, with the holy spirit, God Himself, opening our eyes to the spiritual truths hidden therein to all other commers. Without God epening our eyes, we are yet blind and completely off beat in the beliefs that we arrive at when we study the word of God.
And we don't need to know any Greek or Hebrew for this to occur, or the Word would have stated that we need the Spirit to open our eyes in conjunction with linguistic acumen. To require this, is to negate the power of God. We even have the word state that if we add to Christ, we make Him of no account, for obviously, then, Christ wasn't sufficient. If we add to the Spirit, we make Him of no account, for He needs assistance. Bah! Who states that God needs assistance, and yet claims to know God and walk with Him and be taught with Him? Such a one is a fool, speaking things they know nothing of, leading many astray. We have this truth varified in Acts at Pentecost, when God came down on the believers and they spoke the gospel in the native tongues of all the hearers. And they are the ones that spoke Greek naturally, unlike any of us can ever dream of doing, knowing all the cultural nuances, idioms, etc.. But God gave the spiritual truth to the damned in completely different languages. He did NOT have the hearers understand Greek or Hebrew! Those who teach that we need to learn Greek or Hebrew in order to have a better understand of God's word are liars on two counts: spiritiual things are spiritually understood, not linguistically understood; and God is not limited in any way, let alone by linguistics or volume of reading. And they are also false on the other counts, such as "no need that any man teach you", "you have the mind of Christ", "God gives His spirit without measure", etc..
But the setup, the structure of the church fully constrains Christendom to to very opposite of what the scritpures expressly state. This is tragic.
(2Pe 1:21) For prophecy was not borne at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke being borne along by the Holy Spirit.
And this verse is the nail in the coffin of the misbelief so rife in Christendom regarding verse 20.
So we must ask ourselves, as a previous post did: why is it that we have such varied "spirit led" beliefs? It proves the spiritually blind state of Christendom. And if we insist on continuing on in our way, blithely believing that we are the ones exempt from this, we are most blind. "How great is that darkness."
It's enough to make a man weep.
God will not contradict Himself. That does not mean that persons will not be told different things at different times. That is wholly different that contradiction, as it can happen without any contradition whatsoever.
God is one. One mind. One baptism. One spirit. Etc.. I'm sure that we are familiar with the various scripture verses that state that God does not change, etc..
God is not bi-polar, or multi-polar, or that defies the very definition of God.
The scritpures can be read, memorized, studied, etc., but that does not give spiritual wisdom or insight. Scripture is rife with this truth also. The Pharisees knew the word quite well, but were very blind spiritually. Christ stated this a number of times, and in no uncertain terms! This was also spoken of in the OT, quite often. And Paul even quotes one of those many times from Isaiah. So obviously, reading the word of God can be completely useless to us spiritually. Or it can be rewarding beyond measure. The scriptures state also that it is the Spirit (God) who opens the spiritual eyes. Thus, the obvious conclusion is that without the God opening our spiritual eyes while we read the word of God, we will come to erroneous conclusions. To aver otherwise is to be devoid of even basic understanding and dictionary definitions of words that we use! Spiritual things are NOT a democracy. It is not a majority vote of the citizens. God has His truth. We must have it too, "having been conformed to his truth", the word states. The word also states that when we are one in the God, anything that we don't have agreement one, those periphery things, God will bring us into unity on them. This then begs the obvious question, "why don't we see this happening?" Again, there can be but one answer: we are not all walking in God, but are listening to various voices. Christ stated that those who are born of God, hear His voice, and that they don't hear the voice of others, but do what God's voice tells them. This then demands the conclusion that, just as the apostles wrote in the NT episltes, there are false teachers who lead many astray, teaching doctrines of demons. If they are not teaching the doctrine of God, as evidenced by teaching contrary to God's truth in it, then there aren't any other options for where that doctrine came from! That is a very, very basic of spiritual things: God or Satan. Light or darkness. Clean or unclean. There is no such thing as partial God, or partial Satan, or partial light, etc.. This is why the word states that those new in Christ are yet carnally minded, and that the carnal mind is at enmity with God, so the new in Christ need to remew their mind in Christ Jesus their Lord and Savior. We cannot renew it in Dobson's teachings, Graham's teachings, Colson's teachings, etc.. This is why the scriptures state that those born of God actually have the mind of God. Powerful. But not lived by most, as the proof in the pudding completely reveals. Tragic. We have no need that any man teach us ("do you teach yourselves?"), for we have been given God without measure. That's a fact for those born of God. We are "partakers of the divine nature." That's a fact for those who are actually born of God. "God gives himself without measure". That's a fact for those born of God. Apes give birth to apes. Apples to apples. People to people. God to .....
Well, are you born of God or not? "God is spirit" Christ said. And He said that you must be born of spirit to enter heaven. You MUST be born of God Himself. This is why Christ was the firstborn of many BRETHREN.
Scripture is to be rightly divided, it states. And that is done SOLELY by the Spirit opening our eyes to it. We cannot acquire this on our own, even while seeking the Spirit in it through aides, commentaries, lexicons, etc.. "comparing spiritual with spiritual". That does NOT mean comparing Greek words, Hebrew words, commentaries, etc.. Also, look at 2 Peter 1:20. It sheds no little light on these facts. "knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation". And everybody seems to stop right there. OK, let's just take that, then. What does "private" mean? It has various meanings. Somebody has duped us into fully and exclusively believing that it means our own, or personal. So let's look at the context, OK?
(2Pe 1:16) For not having followed fables having been cunningly devised, but becoming eyewitnesses of the majesty of Jesus Christ, we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord.
Scripture is not fables, but the word of God. It is the truth. It is spiritual fact. As such, it teaches spiritual and actual facts of events also.
(2Pe 1:17) For He received honor and glory from God the Father, when was borne to Him a voice from the excellent glory, "This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased."
We see that the NT speaks of the fulfillment of the OT. As such, it is claimed to be scritpure, to be spiritual truth and fact, in these two verses.
(2Pe 1:18) And we heard this voice being borne from Heaven, being with Him in the holy mountain.
This speaks volumes, in light of the OT and God speaking to Israel from the mountain, but they stopped up their ears in fear and whatnot, and wanted God to speak to them through their leader(s). But God had told them to harken to His VOICE. And we see the terrible fruit of such a heart state, exampled in the wickedness and sins that God had to punish for 40 years in the wilderness. And they persisted in that state even after entering the promised land. Such is the state of Christendom even today, for they insist on listening to their leaders instead of hearing God directly. And just look at the sinfulness, the wicked statistics of Christendom. Only a complete fool would state that the church is not living in wickedness. Even our secular news is filled with these facts every day regarding Christendom's wickeness that everyone sees, but we are unwilling to admit are ours. Tragic. How great is that blindness.
(2Pe 1:19) We also have a more sure Word of prophecy, to which you do well to take heed, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns and the Daystar arises in your hearts,
The scriptural prophecies are even more sure. We are to take heed to them. They are the spiritual light until God's personal light is actually in our hearts. And we saw that it was just previously stated that they were witnesses of thoe prophecies coming to fruition. Thus, the conclusions regarding the previous verses are fully varified yet again by this verse.
(2Pe 1:20) knowing this first, that no prophecy of the Scripture came into being of its own private interpretation.
And that is the foundation for this verse, isn't it! Scripture is not of it's own interpretation, but we are to compare scripture with scripture, with the holy spirit, God Himself, opening our eyes to the spiritual truths hidden therein to all other commers. Without God epening our eyes, we are yet blind and completely off beat in the beliefs that we arrive at when we study the word of God.
And we don't need to know any Greek or Hebrew for this to occur, or the Word would have stated that we need the Spirit to open our eyes in conjunction with linguistic acumen. To require this, is to negate the power of God. We even have the word state that if we add to Christ, we make Him of no account, for obviously, then, Christ wasn't sufficient. If we add to the Spirit, we make Him of no account, for He needs assistance. Bah! Who states that God needs assistance, and yet claims to know God and walk with Him and be taught with Him? Such a one is a fool, speaking things they know nothing of, leading many astray. We have this truth varified in Acts at Pentecost, when God came down on the believers and they spoke the gospel in the native tongues of all the hearers. And they are the ones that spoke Greek naturally, unlike any of us can ever dream of doing, knowing all the cultural nuances, idioms, etc.. But God gave the spiritual truth to the damned in completely different languages. He did NOT have the hearers understand Greek or Hebrew! Those who teach that we need to learn Greek or Hebrew in order to have a better understand of God's word are liars on two counts: spiritiual things are spiritually understood, not linguistically understood; and God is not limited in any way, let alone by linguistics or volume of reading. And they are also false on the other counts, such as "no need that any man teach you", "you have the mind of Christ", "God gives His spirit without measure", etc..
But the setup, the structure of the church fully constrains Christendom to to very opposite of what the scritpures expressly state. This is tragic.
(2Pe 1:21) For prophecy was not borne at any time by the will of man, but holy men of God spoke being borne along by the Holy Spirit.
And this verse is the nail in the coffin of the misbelief so rife in Christendom regarding verse 20.
So we must ask ourselves, as a previous post did: why is it that we have such varied "spirit led" beliefs? It proves the spiritually blind state of Christendom. And if we insist on continuing on in our way, blithely believing that we are the ones exempt from this, we are most blind. "How great is that darkness."
It's enough to make a man weep.
Selene
New Member
Yes indeed but if you notice the writer says there is no more need for any religious ceremony or liturgy because of what Christ has done through the cross.
Look at what Paul said about gathering together.
But now when I mention this next issue, I cannot praise you. For it sounds as if more harm than good is done when you meet together. 1Cor. 11:17
There is very little instruction on how we should meet, but the new testament is full of instruction on how we should greet.
Hi Jiggfly,
Actually, St. Paul never said that people should stop meeting together. St. Paul was actually condemning the Corinthians behavior in how they come together. If you notice toward the end of 1 Corinthians Chapter 11, St. Paul says: Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. (1 Corinthians 11:33). So, St. Paul started out with condemning the Corinthians in their bad behavior of how they meet together. Then, he goes and tells them how to properly meet together....by caring for one another. Thus, St. Paul never said that we should stop coming together. So, yes, the Bible does instruct us on how we should meet. God bless.
In Christ,
Selene
Well, we all know the saying, Location! Location! Location!
When reading God's word, perhaps a first step is to see Context! Context! Context!
When looking at the passage, "not forsaking the gathering....", perhaps context would lend a different understanding of that statement than the whole of Christendom assumes of it?
Kind of like, "Today, you shall be with me in paradise", being groosly missunderstood. First, there is no punctuation, so the interpretors inserted it to fit their beliefs. Second, the punctuation misleads, for it decrys from the book of Hebrews' statements of the spiritual truth that Christ pronounced to the man on the cross. Third, the common belief that the thief went to heaven with Christ that day flies in the face of the OT statements in this regard. Fourth, it also flies in the face of the NT statements in this regard. Fifth, it flies in the face of what Christ himself said to Mary 3 days and 3 nights later: "do not touch me, for I have not yet gone to the Father". Christ Himself stated that he hadn't gone to heaven yet. Thus, the punctuation of our translations is seen to be fully errant, in conjunction with your misplaced assumptions of "truth" that we "perceive", which we say we have received by the Spirit. Interesting that such simple and overt contradictions that we believe as factual truth can be ascribed to God and His teaching us and His "clear" word!
It is shameful, but are we too arrogant to be ashamed of our state so clearly revealed? I see little that would evidence this to be true.
Perhaps such a simple statement "not forsaking the gathering...." has a different spiritual truth of meaning than the masses of Christendom blithely attribute to it.
Just some thoughts.
When reading God's word, perhaps a first step is to see Context! Context! Context!
When looking at the passage, "not forsaking the gathering....", perhaps context would lend a different understanding of that statement than the whole of Christendom assumes of it?
Kind of like, "Today, you shall be with me in paradise", being groosly missunderstood. First, there is no punctuation, so the interpretors inserted it to fit their beliefs. Second, the punctuation misleads, for it decrys from the book of Hebrews' statements of the spiritual truth that Christ pronounced to the man on the cross. Third, the common belief that the thief went to heaven with Christ that day flies in the face of the OT statements in this regard. Fourth, it also flies in the face of the NT statements in this regard. Fifth, it flies in the face of what Christ himself said to Mary 3 days and 3 nights later: "do not touch me, for I have not yet gone to the Father". Christ Himself stated that he hadn't gone to heaven yet. Thus, the punctuation of our translations is seen to be fully errant, in conjunction with your misplaced assumptions of "truth" that we "perceive", which we say we have received by the Spirit. Interesting that such simple and overt contradictions that we believe as factual truth can be ascribed to God and His teaching us and His "clear" word!
It is shameful, but are we too arrogant to be ashamed of our state so clearly revealed? I see little that would evidence this to be true.
Perhaps such a simple statement "not forsaking the gathering...." has a different spiritual truth of meaning than the masses of Christendom blithely attribute to it.
Just some thoughts.
When you give your life to Jesus, truly, then you belong to Him, if you then go to a church and sign yourlife over to it, you now belong to that church, you cannot serve two masters, its eithre Jesus or man, you cant serve both. As for the bible, its not scripture, who told you it was, its not Holy and Jesus , God the Holy Spirit even the apostles never said it was. If it was Holy, in our sinfull nature we would die when we touched it, here is the evidence. God bever siad He was going to write a book, He said He would send Jesus, and He did, Jesus never said He was going to write a book, He said He woulld send the Holy Spirirt and He did, Not to teach us the bible, but to lead us into thr truth and teach us things to come, it never ended with the book of revelation it is still going on today, those who have ears to hear let them hear. Jesus never called the disciples saints, we do, thats from catholism and is how you know that people are catholics, its not from God, If the bible is Gods word, then why are so many deceived and confused, God is not the Author of confusion, Is He ??? The only book that Jesus asked anyone to write was the book of revelation, and He did, He never said it was the bible, You see thats what we have being told by man, but we are afraid to offend God, so wed rather believe the lie then find the truth. There is only one truth, that is Jesus, He sent us one teacher the Holy Spirirt, the disciples had enough faith to listen to and obey Him, what has changed, Men just got far to religious, and less spiritual. People love religion, its like having a fence around you to protect you from an angry God. Just like Moses, when He went up the mount to hear from God, while all the rest sat at the bottom, afraid to follow, not willing to go through the fire to see God for themselves, but rather being told of Him by others, Dont you want Jesus for yourselves, would you rather spend all your lives being lied to, is He not worth the effort to come into the fullness of knowing Him. What are you afraid of, falling down??, Jesus will always pick you up.
Knock and the door will be opened , seek and you shall find.
I stand at the door knocking,
Ar you not going to le Him in, Hes not going to barge in, Hes waiting for you,
Dont you love Him ??
In hIs LOve
Knock and the door will be opened , seek and you shall find.
I stand at the door knocking,
Ar you not going to le Him in, Hes not going to barge in, Hes waiting for you,
Dont you love Him ??
In hIs LOve
I don't recall saying that Paul said anyone should stop meeting together. Your misunderstanding my post again. I meant when it comes to liturgy, the scriptures do not give any instruction but there is a lot of instruction about how we should treat/ greet each other when we meet.
Selene
New Member
Hello mjrhealth,
Didn't Jesus built a Church? Didn't Jesus become the Head of the Church? Didn't Scripture say that the pillar and foundation of the Truth is the Church (See 1 Timothy 3:15)? The Bible says that the pillar and foundation of the Truth is the Church because its Head is Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit dwelled in the Church since Pentecost. When Christ said that one cannot serve two masters, he was referring to God and money. He never put the Church in place of money because Christ was the Head of the Church. This Church that Christ built was not built by man. It was built by God because we believe that Christ is God. Hence, when a man belongs to a Church, he belongs to the family of God.
As for the Bible, isn't it considered the "Word of God" and even inspired by God? It was inspired by God according to St. Paul. Anything that comes from God or is inspired by God is viewed as holy because God is holy. People are confused not because of the Bible, but because they misinterpreted the Bible. The problem arises when there are contradictory positions on what the bible means to say vs what we believe the bible means to say.
This is where many if not most would say that this is where Hermeneutics and Exegesis comes in. In short, the position is that the way to know what "right" belief is, what the bible truly means to say, is to be had by applying a scientific approach to reading comprehension.
Those approaches vary from Historical analysis to looking up root meanings for words and trying to either deconstruct the present back to the linear point in question and then reconstruct that point based on scientific rationalizations about what they believe the bible means to say.
1 Tim 6:3 If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
4 He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
In Christ,
Selene
Selene
New Member
Hello Jiggfly,
I apologize if I misunderstood your post. You posted the following in your previous post:
When you wrote in your post that "we no longer need any religious ceremony or liturgy," I took it to mean that people no longer needed to meet together because it is during these gatherings that the liturgies are celebrated. Again, my apologlies if I misunderstood your previous post and thank you for clarifying.
In Christ,
Selene.
Oh selene, I love your posts, I can see you love Jesus, but you are missled a little,
One point at a time,
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
No He is not building His church ( called out ones, ) upon Peter, but revelation, read the previous line, Now Who is buiding the churches you see, Jesus,? no men. Is Jesus into dibision, is Jesus into confusion, is Jesus different in one building and agsin in another, for that is how " mens ", churches are, and ask you Pastor , preacher whos church is it, and his heart will say, its his, not the Lords. Our Lords Church is a spiritual one, not run by men with worldly pieces of paper satying they are teachers, it is made up of spiritual people whos only teacher is The Holy Spirit and who will only follow Jesus.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
As for the bible being Holy, have you in your sinful nature laid hands upon it, are you dead, did Jesus, God or the Holy Spirit declare the bible to be Holy, No, not one of them. Paul did, and what was it that Jesus once said to Peter,
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Oh how we love the things of men for it pleases us, and in doing so we use them to justify our walk by saying it pleases God.
And as for inspired
1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord:
Paul certainly didnt say all he wrote was, seems he had an opinion, in fact later on He realised mens shortcomings
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
Notice how he says the israeltites had the letter, but we now have the Spirit, and that its the sprit that brings life.And Jesus,
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
And for the scriptures,
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
I was once religious, i blindly followed the teachings of men, believeing all taht was told, then along came the Holy spirit, HAve you ever trod on the devils toes, its no fun when hes out to destroy you, ask anyone who truly follows Jesus, they will tell you what a humbling experience it is, when you realisem that all you know. like Paul, counts for nought, and all that is wortth knowing i Jesus Christ Crucified, and to come into the fulnesss of knowing Him, not mens opinions of Him. Its an adventure, of which no story can compare.
And if you like contrdictions, compare these two verses, same story , different writer
Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
So is God a Liar? He is nothing like us. Only one story can be true, but both can be wrong, tell me, which is the truth and which is the Lie?.
Now to make sure we didnt miss anything..
God gave us Jesus,
Jesus sent us the Holy spirit to teach us the truth and things to come,
Where is it mentioned that God was going to give us a bible.
In His Love
I hate quoting scripture, but people wont listen to the Holy Spirirt
One point at a time,
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
No He is not building His church ( called out ones, ) upon Peter, but revelation, read the previous line, Now Who is buiding the churches you see, Jesus,? no men. Is Jesus into dibision, is Jesus into confusion, is Jesus different in one building and agsin in another, for that is how " mens ", churches are, and ask you Pastor , preacher whos church is it, and his heart will say, its his, not the Lords. Our Lords Church is a spiritual one, not run by men with worldly pieces of paper satying they are teachers, it is made up of spiritual people whos only teacher is The Holy Spirit and who will only follow Jesus.
Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
As for the bible being Holy, have you in your sinful nature laid hands upon it, are you dead, did Jesus, God or the Holy Spirit declare the bible to be Holy, No, not one of them. Paul did, and what was it that Jesus once said to Peter,
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Oh how we love the things of men for it pleases us, and in doing so we use them to justify our walk by saying it pleases God.
And as for inspired
1Co 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord:
Paul certainly didnt say all he wrote was, seems he had an opinion, in fact later on He realised mens shortcomings
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead;)
Gal 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.
2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
Notice how he says the israeltites had the letter, but we now have the Spirit, and that its the sprit that brings life.And Jesus,
Joh 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
And for the scriptures,
Joh 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
I was once religious, i blindly followed the teachings of men, believeing all taht was told, then along came the Holy spirit, HAve you ever trod on the devils toes, its no fun when hes out to destroy you, ask anyone who truly follows Jesus, they will tell you what a humbling experience it is, when you realisem that all you know. like Paul, counts for nought, and all that is wortth knowing i Jesus Christ Crucified, and to come into the fulnesss of knowing Him, not mens opinions of Him. Its an adventure, of which no story can compare.
And if you like contrdictions, compare these two verses, same story , different writer
Mar 5:2 And when he was come out of the ship, immediately there met him out of the tombs a man with an unclean spirit,
Mat 8:28 And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes, there met him two possessed with devils, coming out of the tombs, exceeding fierce, so that no man might pass by that way.
Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
So is God a Liar? He is nothing like us. Only one story can be true, but both can be wrong, tell me, which is the truth and which is the Lie?.
Now to make sure we didnt miss anything..
God gave us Jesus,
Jesus sent us the Holy spirit to teach us the truth and things to come,
Where is it mentioned that God was going to give us a bible.
In His Love
I hate quoting scripture, but people wont listen to the Holy Spirirt
I can see how you came to that conclusion now, but we probably disagree on the identity of ekklesia. There is the ekklesia that Jesus is building and then there is the religious system (church) that man has built and is building. One is spiritual the other is carnal.
Selene
New Member
My brother, the Bible is holy because it is the word of God and as St. Paul says all Scripture is inspired by God (2 Timothy 3:16). Because it is viewed as the word of God and insired by God, it is viewed "holy" because God is holy. It is true that God or the Holy Spirit never declared the Bible to be holy, but if one has a personal relationship with our Lord and fully knows our Lord, then he/she understands that all things that comes from God is "holy" and all things that comes from Satan is "unholy." If one cannot see this, then how does one even consider that God is holy?
My brother, I don't see any contradiction in those particular verses you quoted. Jesus met a man in the country of the Gergeseness who was possessed by demons who came from the tomb. Whether there are one demon or two demons is irrelevant. The important point of the story is to show that Jesus is indeed the Son of God that even the demons recognize who He is and that only He can drive out demons. Jesus also gave His Apostles authority and power to drive out demons, but the Apostles never claimed that they were driving out demons themselves. It is only under Christ's name that demons can be driven out. Perhaps, you interpret something different in these verses?
Yes, God gave us Jesus who is the Son of God and God Himself. However, Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to His Church, who at that time consist of the Apostles and His disciples at Pentecost. It was the Church who wrote the Bible under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that was given to them by Jesus. And because this Bible was produced with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, it essentially came from God and is viewed as the word of God."
As for St., Paul who says in 1 Corinthians 7:12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord, it helps not to take a bilbical verse out of context. To understand what St.. Paul is saying, one needs to read his entire speech. St., Paul started his speech by saying "Not I, but the Lord" in 7:10. In here, St. Paul was referring to Jesus' principle of nonseparation spoken about in Mark 10:9; Jesus spoke about marriage in that what God has joined together no man can separate. Then in 7:12, St. Paul says "To the rest, I,, not the Lord." In here St. Paul was extending Jesus' principle of non-separation to those Christians who were married to a pagan or unbeliever.
You see, Jesus' principle of non-separation says that "what God has joined together no human being must separate" (Mark 10:9). This is what St. Paul was referring to when he said "Not I, but the Lord" in 7:10. He was addressingo those Christians who were married to Christians. Then in 7:12, St.. Paul started addressing Christians who were married to unbelievers and extended Jesus' principle of non-separation to them. When read in the entire context, this is what the Bible teaches:
1 Corinthians 7:10-12 To the married, however, I give this instruction (not I, but the Lord): a wife should not separate from her husband - and if she does separate she must either remain single or become reconciled to her husband - and a husband should not divorce his wife. To the rest I say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her.
So, as you can see, St Paul is simply extending the same principle of non-separation to those who married a pagan. Those who married an unbeliever must follow the same principle that Jesus applied to all who are joined in marriage.
In Christ,
Selene
I'm another who no longer attends what I call The Institution. I come from a long line of churchgoers, very active in ministry and music. I attended faithfully for the first 47 years of my life. But the last few I kept hearing "Come out of her, my people", regarding The Institution. I resisted, I studied, and finally I left.
The NT gives us the analogy of the human body as how God has designed the ekklesia, a word used for any sort of gathering but coined as a term for believers in the NT. A body is one substance with many parts, and each part reports to the one Head, Jesus. The arm does not ask permission of the eye to talk to the head, and the ear does not give orders to the foot. This is not a model of a chain of command but a unit with many equal components. The body functions best when each part does what it's designed for and does not concern itself with bossing other parts. This is the model Paul gave more than once, and he never used a model that contradicted this one.
So the "church", or the Assembly or Congregation as I like to call it, is not organized like a business or army at all. There are leaders that we might compare to the "eyes and ears" of the body, but they do not give orders or commands; that's the sole function of the brain, which we might compare to Christ. It is wise for the body to listen to what the eyes and ears report and advise, but not commanded. Never are such leaders told to take control over any "flock" but to shepherd it. And what does a good shepherd do? Do the sheep support the shepherd? Do they feed the shepherd, or does the shepherd feed and protect them? And do the sheep follow the shepherd because of fear or obligation, or because they recognize the voice of one who cares for them?
The NT is clear that any given congregation is to have a group of leaders, not just one, and such leaders are to be teachers and guardians. No guards on the walls of a city are magistrates or kings, but it is wise to believe them when they see danger. On the other hand, the people being guarded must know a bad guard when they see one. So it is really the leaders who are held to a higher standard, as both Paul and James said; it is leaders who must be examples and role models, and are in fact acknowledged on the basis of their having already demonstrated the highest qualities of a Christian.
I'll stop there for now and see what you all think. :-)
The NT gives us the analogy of the human body as how God has designed the ekklesia, a word used for any sort of gathering but coined as a term for believers in the NT. A body is one substance with many parts, and each part reports to the one Head, Jesus. The arm does not ask permission of the eye to talk to the head, and the ear does not give orders to the foot. This is not a model of a chain of command but a unit with many equal components. The body functions best when each part does what it's designed for and does not concern itself with bossing other parts. This is the model Paul gave more than once, and he never used a model that contradicted this one.
So the "church", or the Assembly or Congregation as I like to call it, is not organized like a business or army at all. There are leaders that we might compare to the "eyes and ears" of the body, but they do not give orders or commands; that's the sole function of the brain, which we might compare to Christ. It is wise for the body to listen to what the eyes and ears report and advise, but not commanded. Never are such leaders told to take control over any "flock" but to shepherd it. And what does a good shepherd do? Do the sheep support the shepherd? Do they feed the shepherd, or does the shepherd feed and protect them? And do the sheep follow the shepherd because of fear or obligation, or because they recognize the voice of one who cares for them?
The NT is clear that any given congregation is to have a group of leaders, not just one, and such leaders are to be teachers and guardians. No guards on the walls of a city are magistrates or kings, but it is wise to believe them when they see danger. On the other hand, the people being guarded must know a bad guard when they see one. So it is really the leaders who are held to a higher standard, as both Paul and James said; it is leaders who must be examples and role models, and are in fact acknowledged on the basis of their having already demonstrated the highest qualities of a Christian.
I'll stop there for now and see what you all think. :-)
I agree, Saber, as it's all right there in the Word, but we just need to accept it instead of acquiescing on it, as Christendom does on most of the word of God.
As for shepherding, that is what they do: shepherd. When Christ told Peter, "Feed my sheep", He was not telling Peter to water the grass, cut the grass, cure the grass, haul the grass to the barn, and then toss it into the trough at regular intervals. No. The shepherd did just that: shepherd. Christendom has a feedlot mentality, and has for many centuries. The Reformation only just started, and then completely faltered in this most crucial of things. What a total travesty that was, for the deception that it wrought was greater than that which it sought to replace. It just breaks the heart to see this truth and the fruit of it that has been borne these 400 and some years. What a travesty! And just as the animals that come out of a feedlot are all very similar and have significant health issues, so to is the spiritual state of Christendom. Just look at the proof of the pudding! Rather, scripture tells us what the shepherd did: led the sheep in pastures well watered. Why? So that the sheep could feed themselves, of course. Duh. I've yet to see any shepherd grab the grass and stuff it into the sheep's mouth! And this is to be the way of the spiritual leader: lead them to green spiritual pastures where the sheep feed on God and are not molested by those who would prey on them, as the shepherd lays down his life to destroy and thwart and avert those that would tear the sheep while they are feeding of their own accord in the green pastures by the river of water.
The parallel given in scripture is most profound. We have been duped into a modernized version that has nothing to do whatsoever with the historical way things have been done with sheep throughout human history except in the recent "industrialized" nations. It never ceases to amaze me just how gullible and sequacious the sheep really are. The proof is staring us in the face.
It is most refreshing to see the large number of believers that God is calling out of wickedness and the ways of silly and wicked Christendom, and into purity and closeness with Him. God is just amazing. He is so glorious for separating some vessels for honor and having many vessels for dishonor. God is great, and greatly to be praised!
As for shepherding, that is what they do: shepherd. When Christ told Peter, "Feed my sheep", He was not telling Peter to water the grass, cut the grass, cure the grass, haul the grass to the barn, and then toss it into the trough at regular intervals. No. The shepherd did just that: shepherd. Christendom has a feedlot mentality, and has for many centuries. The Reformation only just started, and then completely faltered in this most crucial of things. What a total travesty that was, for the deception that it wrought was greater than that which it sought to replace. It just breaks the heart to see this truth and the fruit of it that has been borne these 400 and some years. What a travesty! And just as the animals that come out of a feedlot are all very similar and have significant health issues, so to is the spiritual state of Christendom. Just look at the proof of the pudding! Rather, scripture tells us what the shepherd did: led the sheep in pastures well watered. Why? So that the sheep could feed themselves, of course. Duh. I've yet to see any shepherd grab the grass and stuff it into the sheep's mouth! And this is to be the way of the spiritual leader: lead them to green spiritual pastures where the sheep feed on God and are not molested by those who would prey on them, as the shepherd lays down his life to destroy and thwart and avert those that would tear the sheep while they are feeding of their own accord in the green pastures by the river of water.
The parallel given in scripture is most profound. We have been duped into a modernized version that has nothing to do whatsoever with the historical way things have been done with sheep throughout human history except in the recent "industrialized" nations. It never ceases to amaze me just how gullible and sequacious the sheep really are. The proof is staring us in the face.
It is most refreshing to see the large number of believers that God is calling out of wickedness and the ways of silly and wicked Christendom, and into purity and closeness with Him. God is just amazing. He is so glorious for separating some vessels for honor and having many vessels for dishonor. God is great, and greatly to be praised!
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