Robots and Will Worshipers

[DNB]

In this case, who determines what manners are ludicrous?

Any being with the requisite faculties, like a sound and normal human being, for example.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Law was the Israelites righteousness, and they extolled its virtues accordingly, which separated them from all other nations. David praised the wisdom of God that he found in the Law, and said that it was the bread of life for him, amongst countless other praises.

True, but it was not the law that made them righteous, but Jesus, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World! Th eobject of their faith was teh sacrifice, but the righteousness always comes from god.

There is no law that can make on righteous before God. Paul made that clear. Even Genesis says the just shall live by faith. Abraham believed and it was counted for righteousness.

 

[Ziggy]

Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

I'm still trying to figure out what charge, commandments, statutes and laws, Abraham kept before God gave them to Moses.

And what was the promise for Abraham doing that? The Lord is talking to Isaac here:

Gen 26:2 And the LORD appeared unto him, and said, Go not down into Egypt; dwell in the land which I shall tell thee of:
Gen 26:3 Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;
Gen 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;

So because Abraham kept these... God told Isaac, I will.. still future, not finished yet, I will keep my oath to Abraham.

So what was these?
kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Before Moses' law...

 

[DNB]

True, but it was not the law that made them righteous, but Jesus, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the World! Th eobject of their faith was teh sacrifice, but the righteousness always comes from god.

There is no law that can make on righteous before God. Paul made that clear. Even Genesis says the just shall live by faith. Abraham believed and it was counted for righteousness.

Yes, ultimately faith supersedes works, both in decree from God, and by practice (even a sinner can follow a regiment).
But, the Law had its purpose, as being implemented by God for 1,500 years. And during this time, all were saved by abiding by its rules and regulations - which there were provisions for atonement and purification. It was the yoke that was removed at cavalry, and the principle of faith, which, as an example was demonstrated by Abraham's faith, became the new Law towards salvation.
The incidences that were cited in the New Testament, denoting the faith of some of the OT saints, was merely elucidating the eternal principle of faith - how it is superior to works. It was not defining its mandatory adherence or disposition throughout all dispensations.

 

[Rudometkin]

Not at all, i believe in free-will. But, as you said, there are parameters.

So you don't believe God is Creator of everything. Is that accurate to your belief?

 

[farouk]

So you don't believe God is Creator of everything. Is that accurate to your belief?

@Rudometkin Hard to deny the Creator, IMHO...

 

[DNB]

So you don't believe God is Creator of everything. Is that accurate to your belief?

God created everything seen and unseen in the entire universe, ...even your free-will.

 

[Rudometkin]

Obviously the act of creation of another being, is not done by the creatures volition or acceptance, it is imposed upon them by the creator. Is that what you meant by coercing man? ...either way, whatever our faculties may be, we learn and we grow, and can substantiate to a large degree all our actions that were for better or for worse. Meaning, there is over-whelming evidence that we are self-determining our lives. This cannot be denied or or super-imposed by God's sovereignty, but must be harmonized.

Obviously the act of creation of another being, is not done by the creatures volition or acceptance, it is imposed upon them by the creator.

I'm just interested in whether or not you would call this either coercion or manipulation.

 

[Rudometkin]

God created everything seen and unseen in the entire universe, ...even your free-will.

Is your free-will outside of God's control?

 

[farouk]

Is your free-will outside of God's control?

@Rudometkin Good question! and what we need is the intervention of Divine grace, as per Ephesians 2...

 

[DNB]

I'm just interested in whether or not you would call this either coercion or manipulation.

An element, yes. And, you are correct, no matter how one slices it, there is invariably, an essence of domination on God's part. But, due to His omnipotence, He is also able to create a being that has a certain amount of autonomy. We are all exercising this faculty continuously, on a daily basis. We grow, we learn, and we make decisions all at different rates and evolution than others. Some can be persuaded to change their minds, others cannot, on certain issues. Who's pulling who's strings?

 

[DNB]

Is your free-will outside of God's control?

No, of course not, absolutely nothing in His universe is outside his control. Neither can He create a rock so massive, that He cannot lift or control it it. But, rather, He chooses not to intervene in our free-will, despite the fact that He can.

 

[Timtofly]

Adam commiting a disobedient act is an unloving act. God wants us, his creation, to live our lives in a way that shows our love for him, and in a way that gives praise and glory to his name. Living our lives in a way by making a decision that shows that we have faith that God is such a loving person he will rule his creation in a way that we know that only he has the ability and the knowledge to rule his creation in a way that is in the best interest of what he created or what is not in the best interests of what he created is showing such love to God and to ourselves and is praising God name and giving him all the glory that shows he is such a person. God didn't want his creation to make any other decision than that or any other act that showed we didn't have such faith. Do you really believe that when God gave his creation freewill he wanted his creation to make a decision that showed they didn't have enough love for God to have faith in him to be the only person that would rule in such a way that was best for his creation or what was not in the best interest of what he created? We, God's creation, are to make all our decisions based on love for him and each other, any other way, is an abuse of our freewill because God never gave his creation freewill to be unloving to God or each other, that is an abuse of creations freewill.

Adam certainly did not get into the Hebrews 11 hall of fame.

 

[Timtofly]

They have this thing called "string theory" . I'm not into science but it goes kind of like this.
You observe this microscopic string and it appears like so, and if you shift your gaze ever so slightly, it changes it's appearance.
Interesting, although I don't fully understand it. Something to do with perception.

I have this same situation when I view Adam and Eve. Depending on my perception or how I gaze on it, it changes.
I can see a mariad of different scenerios of what transpired that day and in that hour.

We have 2 commandments. Love God and Love Neighbor.

God gave Adam a "neighbor" to love.
No greater love, than a man lay down his life for his friend.

Eve made a mistake. Adam took on the mistake as well. He knew it was wrong, but he listened to his wife
whom God gave him to love and take care of.

Making himself as equally to blame, so they would both share the consequences. They would die together.

Maybe it was that mustard seed of faith that Adam had in God that saved them from never having a chance to say I'm sorry.

well, that's one way of looking at the string. I've seen it play out in so many ways.
And we all have different perceptions. The string is still the string, it's how we look at it that we maybe learn from it ?

IDK..
thinking..
Hugs

Except for the fact, Adam and Eve had no knowledge of good and evil. They had no clue about life as we know it, the same as we have no clue how life was the way they knew it.

Only one command: Adam was not to eat from that tree.

 

[Timtofly]

Now people try to tell me that Adam didn't know God's laws. But how did they know to hide?
Why did they feel guilty the minute thay broke that commandment?
If Adam knew about marriage, don't you think God raising his only Son Adam would have instructed him from the day he made him?

Well the name of the tree, was the knowledge of good and evil. You would think eating it would change things. The second Adam ate, not Eve, Adam knew evil. If Eve instantly knew evil, what part of good or love should she had demonstrated towards Adam? She should have ran from him to prevent him from harming himself. Sorry, but Satan already had Eve on his side. Instead of protecting Adam she still offered him to eat as well. She obviously did not want to be left alone in knowing good and evil. Knowing one has disobeyed is the first knowledge of good and evil. It was the fact they died, that they could no longer hide the evidence. Death was now their physical reality. They knew they had died, the instant Adam ate and the image of God was gone, and they were only left with a corruptible body and the nature of sin and the stench of sin's death. Revelation 16:15.

15 (“Look! I am coming like a thief! How blessed are those who stay alert and keep their clothes clean, so that they won’t be walking naked and be publicly put to shame!”)

 

[Ziggy]

They were old enough to reason.

Adam was smart enough to name every creature. He was smart enough to know how to keep and tend the garden.
He was old enough to claim Eve has his wife.
And God breathed into him his own breath of life.
The same way Jesus breathed on his disciples.

I think they trusted the snake. And only after they ate they realized how cunning deception can be.
Specially if it could appear as an angel of light... and trusted in themselves more than God.

Lots of ways to look at it. That's for sure.
Hugs

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Adam certainly did not get into the Hebrews 11 hall of fame.

No he's not numbered with those who exercised faith in God.

 

[Rudometkin]

No, of course not, absolutely nothing in His universe is outside his control. Neither can He create a rock so massive, that He cannot lift or control it it. But, rather, He chooses not to intervene in our free-will, despite the fact that He can.

You mean that a man's will has a trajectory of it's own, that God can intervene?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

They were old enough to reason.

Adam was smart enough to name every creature. He was smart enough to know how to keep and tend the garden.
He was old enough to claim Eve has his wife.
And God breathed into him his own breath of life.
The same way Jesus breathed on his disciples.

I think they trusted the snake. And only after they ate they realized how cunning deception can be.
Specially if it could appear as an angel of light... and trusted in themselves more than God.

Lots of ways to look at it. That's for sure.
Hugs

The scriptures say Eve was deceived, the scriptures don't say Adam was deceived. Adam knowingly and willingly sinned against the True God, so I don't think Adam trusted the serpent. When it comes to trust, Adam and Eve should have put their trust in the True God.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Thanks for responding.

If God chose to not foreknow something, then He was not all knowing.

Why would our universe have been destroyed a long time ago? Do you perhaps figure that God's power is only destroying and not sustaining?

Genesis says that God rested on the seventh day, but Jesus taught that Him and His father have not stopped working in reference to the Sabbath day.

John 5:16-17
And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Do you think it is possible that God never stopped using His power since the beginning of creation?

I agree that God has always used his power in some way from the beginning until now, and yes I believe that Jehovah God also uses his power in a sustaining way. That however doesn't mean he hasn't used his power to destroy too, and when Jehovah God uses his power to destroy he uses it selectively, he doesn't have to use every bit of his power all the time to be considered all-powerful.
The point is, Jehovah God can use his power in a selective way and not use every bit of his power to do something like destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, which shows that God can use his powers in a selective way. This would include the ability of Jehovah God being all-knowing. Jehovah God didn't have to look into the future to see if Adam would sin before he created him in order for him to be all-knowing. A person saying that Jehovah God has to look at every second of the future in order to be all-knowing is saying, prior to creating angels or earthling man, God exercised his all-knowing abilities and saw and knew all that would result from such creation, including the rebellion of one of his spirit sons(Satan), the subsequent rebellion of the first human pair in Eden (Ge 3:1-6; Joh 8:44), and all the bad consequences of such rebellion down to and beyond this present day. This would necessarily mean that all the wickedness that history has recorded (the crime and immorality, oppression and resultant suffering, lying and hypocrisy, false worship and idolatry) once existed, before creation’s beginning, only in the mind of God, in the form of his foreknowledge of the future in all of its minutest details.

If the Creator of mankind had indeed exercised his power to foreknow all that history that has seen since man’s creation, then the full weight of all the wickedness thereafter resulting was deliberately set in motion by God when he spoke the words: “Let us make man.” (Ge 1:26) These facts bring into question the reasonableness and consistency of your concept of Jehovah God being all-knowing, particularly so, since the disciple James shows that disorder and other vile things do not originate from God’s heavenly presence but are “earthly, animal, demonic” in source.—Jas 3:14-18.
So I disagree with you God didn't have to have seen Adam was going to sin before he created him for Jehovah God to be all-knowing. Jehovah God can selectively choose not to look into the future to see if Adam was going to sin or not and still be all-knowing. You trying to convince me that Jehovah God can't choose how he wants to use his supernatural abilities, like he can't choose how much of his power he wishes to use or whether or not he doesn't have the ability to choose what he wants to see of the future or what he doesn't want to see of the future, because according to you if God chooses to not see something of the future he's not all-knowing. Sorry I don't buy it. Jehovah God has the ability, and the authority to use his supernatural abilities selectively. You want to try and hem Jehovah God in by your definition of what makes God all-knowing and you are trying to say by your definition of what makes God all-knowing, that all this evil and wickedness mankind had experienced comes from God because you're saying God put all this wickedness and evil in motion when he began creating.