John Darby

[Naomi25]

Before we proceed, please give me succinct answers to these please:

1. If this is eterntiy, are you admitting that Satan will be released to deceive the nations again afer your XXXX time frame?

I do not see Rev 20 as 'eternity'.

2. He gathers what appears tro be a massive army to besiege the beloved city (Jerusalem is a safe assumption)

Yeah?

3. YOu conclude then that saved people become unsaved to join satan in this rebellion?

Huh? Where on earth did you get that from? Where have I EVER said saved people can become unsaved people?

4. If the first resurrection is our being raised to newness of life- then is satan bound now with chains?

Bound? Yes. Chains? What do you think? Think iron can hold him? I think, as happened in Job, God has given him specific mandates that he cannot breach. In Rev 20's case...he may not 'deceive the nations' with a specific goal to gather them together in a concerted war effort. That mandate will be taken away at some point...could be we're seeing it...who knows.

5. If 4 is true why is there so much sin on earth? Why did Peter an Paul speak of Satan freely roaming the earth seeking whom he may devour? Was He not bound in the early days of the first resurrection? Scripture?

Well, sin is not solely from Satan, we humans can do a decent enough job without him. Also, as I have said above, Rev 20 does NOT say Satan is bound from any and all activity. It is specific in what he is bound against. My guess is that makes him a little peeved. He's not stupid, so while he may not be able to draw all nations together for a concerted war effort against the peoples of God/Jerusalem, you can probably bet he's staging various parts of it so that when that mandate is lifted things will fall into place like dominoes falling.
And, he was bound in the 'early days':

Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. -Matthew 12:29

Jesus burst onto Satan's "scene" and the gospel spread like wildfire. Satan did all he could to finish Christ, but failing that, do you honestly think he wouldn't have smooshed the fledgling faith if he'd been allowed? Nope, the gospel went forth and Satan was bound from gathering the nations against the faith that was growing throughout the world.

If Jesus kingdom extends into eternity- why does God destroy the universe?

If Jesus is reigning on earth- where is HIs rod of Iron? Do you agree withthe watchtower that evil still exists because Jesus has to fight to end it and it takes time for God to defeat evil in His Kingdom?

I know you believe in a 2 part kingdom, you've spoken of it before. It's typically called the 'already, not yet'. Basically, scholars acknowledge that Christ inaugurated his Kingdom at this coming, but won't consummate it finally until he returns. There are obvious reasons for this: the most obvious being that the longer he puts off consummating it, the more people have the chance to be saved. The reason is must be 'consummated' is because this part of the kingdom is still under the curse. For it to be fully realized it must be as the garden was in the beginning...free from the curse and all dwelling in the presence of God.
So...the renewing of the earth and cosmos is not some much a destruction, but a renewing...just as we ourselves will have a new body out of the death of our old. It's the same us, just new. So to for the universe. The Kingdom will be the same, just moving from the phase were sin was still present to one where it is not. Jesus will still be king.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Okay...being perfectly honest here, and hope you understand. I...struggle to understand you at times. The way you phrase things. That is not necessarily a reflection upon you. As someone on the spectrum I can, at times, just 'not get' if someone is on a different wavelength. So...if it seems like I'm just 'not getting it' in my conversation with you or how I respond...it's because I'm not.

I do understand. You are not the first person who has told me I’m hard to understand. Wish I was not hard to understand but I am. you are easy to understand and clear with your words. You have a gift... I do not have.

Having said that: I think perhaps you are reading into 1 Tim 5:24 a context that is not intended for the text. The context of the passage is Paul's discussion to Timothy the qualifications of an elder...what should or should not disqualify him. The discussion of sin, both hidden or on display, is in that particular context.
Could we, perhaps, apply it to a larger theme as you have? Perhaps. But doing so in a dogmatic way on a fairly hard doctrinal issue is perhaps pushing the text further than it specifically allows. I would say.
In other words....specifically in 1 Tim 5:24 we see Paul telling Timothy that in the everyday lives of Christians, especially in the case of assessing for eldership, some men wear their sins openly...they are easy to see...they are prideful, brash, boastful. Other men keep their sins secret...marital affairs, gambling...but these, like most sins, tend to seep to the surface after a time...they cannot be hidden forever. But, never-the-less, in the case of eldership, ought to be searched for by the Church before electing anyone.
I think in making this passage apply in a 'wider' application, we can say that most people, even outside those seeking an eldership role, suffer from these problems...hidden sins or open sins...and try to learn what the Spirit is teaching us about the nature of our sin problem through that. But making it stretch further and symbolize what you are suggesting is, I'm sorry, perhaps unwarranted.
But, of course this is my opinion and I am not a bible scholar.

Then I have misunderstood it. I thought he was comforting Timothy and his often infirmity; by letting Timothy know his deeds were being made manifest by the Light, wrought in God. That he was comforting Timothy with that fiery trial ...being the reason for bringing up judgement and sins opened.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Again, context is rather key. Because...'blessings' are never represented in scripture as something that gives salvation, are they?
When Jesus was telling his followers to 'bless those who curse you', he was advising them twofold: one, for their own spiritual benefit and growth...no Christian ought to be filled with hate and revenge. And two, for our Christian testimony to the world, to show there is a difference in how we live and treat others.
But again, 'blessing' someone has never, once, led to salvation. Scripture is clear, only faith in Christ does that.

Luke 13:34-35 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not! [35] Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

Again, I'm not sure I'm seeing your thought very well here, sorry. What I DO understand you saying I disagree with. I think you are taking a verse that speaks in direct contradiction to your view and attempting to turn it on it's head to support you.

‘I think you are taking a verse that speaks in direct contradiction to your view and attempting to turn it on it's head to support you.’ That is the last thing I want to do. take a verse that contradicts my view and twist it to support me. Will go back and read it again closely. Thank you. because if that is what I’m doing then I want to stop doing it. Hear that one all the time too ‘out of context’, warned of taking it out of context so often.

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— Romans 9:19–23

again, could be wrong ...An opinion only: with the above the problem seems to begin in assuming we are the vessel of mercy and honor while others are always the vessels of dishonor: destruction and wrath. Instead of the vessel of dishonor; destruction and wrath being that born after the flesh.
And the vessel of honor; mercy being that born after the Spirit of God.
Paul makes it pretty clear Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
...God has endured with much patience vessels of wrath (that born first)prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy(that born last),

2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

1 Corinthians 15:47-49 The first man is of the earth, earthy(dishonor): the second man is the Lord from heaven(honor). [48] As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy(dishonor); and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly(honor). [49] And as we have borne the image of the earthy(dishonor), we shall also bear the image of the heavenly(honor).

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The Lord searches the heart (Jeremiah 17.10).

Forgot Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

 

[farouk]

Forgot Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

1 Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

@VictoryinJesus More good and relevant verses!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Apparently its hard to support all this with scripture.

I already did a while ago. I guess you never bothered to read the SCriptures I posted.

So you say with a nothing more than a wave of your hand. But, as I showed with many scriptures in #533, scripture does indeed point to 'new birth' for the Christian...you confirmed that yourself. Do you know what this means? It means this: dismissing the 'first resurrection' as spiritual new birth cannot simply be done with a 'wave of the hand'. Because there is enough biblical evidence to warrant the argument for it. Which means IF you want your argument to have any legitimacy, you need to prove, beyond doubt...and that means by providing scriptural evidence, not hand waving opinion, why it CANNOT be the first resurrection.
See how that works?

So you have two resurrections. One that is ongoing and continuous for now and one that is going to happen after your symbolic passage of time.

Well normal understanding of the passage makes one conclude a certain group gets resurrected at that time. Teh Greek supports it. what needs to be done is you to prove that the first resurrection is an ongoing resurrection, combined with all the other events surrounding teh passage. YOu haven't you have just opined your thoughts.

So many people believe that the binding of Satan means he is bound from doing 'anything'. But, reading it 'faithfully', we see that is simply not what it says. It tells us Satan is bound from doing something very specific. From 'deceiving the nations'. In fact, from "deceiving the nations, to gather them for battle".
What are we to make of that? I submit this: We know that in this 'age' Satan prowls around like a lion, and that also, he knows his time is short. That makes him both angry and dangerous. We already know he has a hatred against God's people, Jew or Christian.
Why then, do you suppose that, given his influence, he has not yet managed a world-wide offensive against both Jerusalem and Christians? At the end of the 'millennium'...or I would say the kingdom of this age, I submit that Satan will be released to do just that. He will be released to deceive the nations from the 'four corners or the earth' to gather them against the saints and the holy city. It will be a time of great persecution against the people of God and should Christ not return and save us, there would not be much hope for us.

So it is your contention that Satan is not deceiving the nations any more then. All this garbage and false religions and even Satan worship is all man made to you. WOW! But your submission is wrong!

Here is the passage!

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

See he was cast in a bottomless pit and a seal set so that Satan could not deceive the nations till that 1,000 years which you say has been happening since at least Pentecost! Not gather people for war!

Now let us look at what happens when he is loosed after the 1,000 years which you say has been ongoing.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

The gathering of the nations is a result of his being loosed NOT a reason for him to be bound! Faulty hermeneutics on your part! But I think you know that.

When is this gathering for war supposed to take place in your submission?

Wait, let me get this straight...you feel because the bible speaks of 'an earthly kingdom' elsewhere, you feel it acceptable to read into this passage things simply not there? Is that correct?
Because, you know that's NOT how exegesis works, right? You can enhance and build a doctrine by using multiple verses to flesh out things. But you most certainly cannot make the 'excuse' of what other verses say to insert meaning or text into certain passages. What a text says is what a text says. It can help build your case or not, but it is what it is.
In this case, Matt 25 CLEARLY says that at the SAME time the sheep and goats are divided off into either eternal life or the lake of fire. Deal with it.

Yes what a text says is what it says ( I wish you would accept that). But you cannot form a doctrine based on one passage. that is your problem- you force the thousand years to be symbolic because you do not see Jesus reigning for a temporary time on earth! But yet Paul says Jesus only reigns until death is conquered! Jesus is not the eternal king! The Father is!

But to get a full picture of a biblical doctrine , you must take all passages related to that concept and put them all together. Of course many verses will not say certain things, but the earthly kingdom Jesus reigns over will only last for 1,000 years. This is a hereneutical priniciple both dispensationalists and covenantalists know is the only way to build a full doctrine. The thousand years is part of the whole kingdom picture.

REv. 19 Jesus weds the church in heaven and then returns (see also Matt. 24 and Luke 22) Jesus establishes His throne after an enormous battle.

Jesus sets HIs throne and rules with a rod of iron ( see my earlier posts where I gave you enormous amounts of SCripture)
Nearly all the earth is restored after jesus returns and is restored to its edenic paradise state. (mostly Isaiah as I already posted)
The earth is repopulated. People prosper. If someone commits sin- it is judged instantly!
There is no deception going on because the deciever is bound (REv. 20)
But once the 1,000 years is up Satan gathers a ost for another war!


Let me get back to your submission as to what teh first resurrection is. As you claim it is the ongoing process when someone becomes a believer ! I do believe that when we are saved we are baptized into Jesus' death and resurrected to new life! BUT BUT BUT

If the 1,000 years is symbolic and in reality an ongoing time span of close to 2,000 years now then this is happening now as well:

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Is the earth in its evil now what you call Jesus reigning over the earth? That is like the Watchtower and their contention Jesus began reigning in 1914 and just doesn't seem up to the task of really ruling righteously just yet! Is that what you want me to believe????

It is interesting! Genesis 1and 2 god gives us how things began approx. 6,000 years ago and REv. 20 and 21 show us how He is going to end things ! Why believers feel the need to allegorizew these things and not simply accept them especially when evidence shows they are literal is a mystery to me!

 

[Naomi25]

I do understand. You are not the first person who has told me I’m hard to understand. Wish I was not hard to understand but I am. you are easy to understand and clear with your words. You have a gift... I do not have.

Then I have misunderstood it. I thought he was comforting Timothy and his often infirmity; by letting Timothy know his deeds were being made manifest by the Light, wrought in God. That he was comforting Timothy with that fiery trial ...being the reason for bringing up judgement and sins opened.

Well...I think if we look at the whole of the passage...the unbroken paragraph, we do find the topic is one where Paul is advising Timothy on eldership:

Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in preaching and teaching. For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox when it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer deserves his wages.” Do not admit a charge against an elder except on the evidence of two or three witnesses. As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality. Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor take part in the sins of others; keep yourself pure. (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.) The sins of some people are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later. So also good works are conspicuous, and even those that are not cannot remain hidden. -1 Timothy 5:17–25

And, as I said before, while I do believe what is true in one part of the bible can be applied as true to other things, it is, I think, an error to not primarily apply it to what it is...well...being primarily being addressed to. Which is eldership. And secondarily, the open/hidden sins people have and how that may effect their serving within the body of Christ.
But, again, as I said before, I am not a biblical scholar...it may very well be a legitimate use of such a notion to push it past where I would say is should be.

 

[Davy]

He said, scolding me by quoting a single verse and giving his opinion of it in response.
Pot....Kettle. Goose....gander.
You see where I'm going here.
What makes YOUR 'single' verse and opinion on it more valid than mine? Because its YOUR opinion?
And, by the way, I most certainly did NOT give "a single verse", did I? You quote a single verse, but in actuality I gave many in order to show where I was getting my 'doctrine' from. And if one is not supposed to build a doctrine from a great many of biblical passages speaking about a single topic....then where on earth do you suppose doctrines come from?

Yeah, you made quotes, of singular verses OUT OF THEIR CONTEXT in God's written Word. I revealed that in my previous post. Why not address that, instead of trying to project your error away from yourself.

The John 18:36 verse I quoted directly contradicts how you interpreted the Matthew 12:28 verse instead according to a tradition of man. In case you're not aware, you cannot form a doctrine from one verse saying Christ's Kingdom has already come, while there exists another verse where He directly professes His Kingdom is not of this world (this present world time). You have to use common sense in the setting of where He was speaking.

The Matthew 12:28 verse is a Message to the blind Pharisees who claimed to know God's Word, yet denied it, because they should have recognized Jesus' appearance in Jerusalem as written in the Old Testament prophets. Lord Jesus was even still showing them that He is The Messiah while He was upon His cross, near death, quoting directly from Psalms 22:1, which David was given to prophesy of that very event of Christ's crucifixion about a thousand years before it happened. How could the blind Pharisees not know? They rejected the Kingdom by having Jesus crucified, and His Kingdom is still in abeyance until He returns in our near future.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

In case you're not aware, you cannot form a doctrine from one verse saying Christ's Kingdom has already come, while there exists another verse where He directly professes His Kingdom is not of this world (this present world time).

Okay quite a few verses not to be confusing but because, I do not know how to try to get a point across without giving the verses as to why this is my opinion or question.

one) are you saying because His kingdom is not of this world, then that has mean it is not here although maybe hidden for seasons? Question this because ‘in the world but not of the world’ does not mean something is not there but only not ‘of’. The other reason would be if His kingdom is not here then why when a treasure is found hidden in a field a man goes and sells all to buy (purchase) the field...the word says the field is the world which the treasure is hidden in. Also, we have this great treasure in an earthen vessel ...our ‘great treasure in earthen vessels’ doesn’t mean that great treasure is not there.

in Matthew 24:37-38 we speak of entering into the Ark, as a typology of entering into Christ. And if any be in Christ then he is a New Creature: neither Jew nor gentile, neither male nor female, neither bond nor free. (See they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, UNTIL Noe entered the ark), so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Consider the ‘marrying and giving in marriage’ and what His says of the New creature neither male nor female, neither Jew nor gentile, neither free nor bond...but ‘when they rise’ and awaken from the dead are as the angels (messengers) of heaven. Luke 20:34-38 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: [35] But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: [36] Neither can they die any more: (1 John 3:13-14) (John 5:24)for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, (Matthew 5:44-45 That ye may be the children of your Father, Matthew 5:9, 1 John 5:1-2, too many to list pertaining to ‘the children of God’)being the children of the resurrection.(with the First of many brethren) [37] Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. [38] For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

Romans 14:7-12 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. [8] For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. [9] For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. [10] But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. [11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. [12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
—-feel I lost the point which was mainly with ‘as in the days of noe they were marrying and giving in marriage’ until entering the ark. The children of the present world marry, and are given in marriage...those accounted worthy to obtain ‘that world’, to obtain ‘that age’ and ‘life from the dead’ ...neither marry, nor are given in marriage ...neither can they die any more(having passed (out)from, (removed) from death unto Life: for if any be in Christ, he is a new creature; (neither Jew nor gentile, neither male nor female: but the children of God which do not marry or are given in marriage, neither can they die anymore (not to be taken literally imo)

 

[Davy]

Okay quite a few verses not to be confusing but because, I do not know how to try to get a point across without giving the verses as to why this is my opinion or question.

one) are you saying because His kingdom is not of this world, then that has mean it is not here although maybe hidden for seasons? Question this because ‘in the world but not of the world’ does not mean something is not there but only not ‘of’. The other reason would be if His kingdom is not here then why when a treasure is found hidden in a field a man goes and sells all to buy (purchase) the field...the word says the field is the world which the treasure is hidden in. Also, we have this great treasure in an earthen vessel ...our ‘great treasure in earthen vessels’ doesn’t mean that great treasure is not there.

You're still not addressing the Scriptures that include many revelations about His coming Kingdom in the future. Do I have time to read to you all those Bible declarations about His Kingdom that will manifest when He returns? No, do your own study. Spiritualizing The Bible is not the way to understanding it.

in Matthew 24:37-38 we speak of entering into the Ark, as a typology of entering into Christ. And if any be in Christ then he is a New Creature: neither Jew nor gentile, neither male nor female, neither bond nor free. (See they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, UNTIL Noe entered the ark), so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Actually, Apostle Paul saying Jesus is 'our' Passover is more relevant than Noah's ark as a metaphor. But that still has nothing to do with proof that His Kingdom is already literally manifested here on earth today per the prophetic Word of God.

Consider the ‘marrying and giving in marriage’ and what His says of the New creature neither male nor female, neither Jew nor gentile, neither free nor bond...but ‘when they rise’ and awaken from the dead are as the angels (messengers) of heaven. Luke 20:34-38 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: [35] But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: [36] Neither can they die any more: (1 John 3:13-14) (John 5:24)for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, (Matthew 5:44-45 That ye may be the children of your Father, Matthew 5:9, 1 John 5:1-2, too many to list pertaining to ‘the children of God’)being the children of the resurrection.(with the First of many brethren) [37] Now that the dead are raised, even Moses shewed at the bush, when he calleth the Lord the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. [38] For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

So the resurrection is already past in your opinion? No, it is not, but will occur on the day of Christ's future 2nd coming. That day has not yet happened. And it's strange that you include the idea of His future coming when all these things will manifest, yet still try to infer they already happened. Whatever Church system you are heeding, I suggest you quit listening to it, immediately.

Romans 14:7-12 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. [8] For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's. [9] For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living. [10] But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. [11] For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. [12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

And that has what relevance to the Scripture I quoted where Jesus said His Kingdom was not of this world?

—-feel I lost the point which was mainly with ‘as in the days of noe they were marrying and giving in marriage’ until entering the ark. The children of the present world marry, and are given in marriage...those accounted worthy to obtain ‘that world’, to obtain ‘that age’ and ‘life from the dead’ ...neither marry, nor are given in marriage ...neither can they die any more(having passed (out)from, (removed) from death unto Life: for if any be in Christ, he is a new creature; (neither Jew nor gentile, neither male nor female: but the children of God which do not marry or are given in marriage, neither can they die anymore (not to be taken literally imo)

You seem to be confused about the two different dimensions of existence taught in God's Word. We are not flesh only. God gave us a spirit with soul which is a separate part from our flesh body. The resurrection is not about an eternal flesh body, it is about an eternal "spiritual body", the "image of the heavenly" according to Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15. This is why Lord Jesus said to not fear those who can kill our body (flesh) but not our soul, but fear Him Who can destroy both body (spirit) and soul in the future lake of fire (Matthew 10:28). So there's two operations going on today. And we are not to confuse the differences between the two.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I already did a while ago. I guess you never bothered to read the SCriptures I posted.



So you have two resurrections. One that is ongoing and continuous for now and one that is going to happen after your symbolic passage of time.

Well normal understanding of the passage makes one conclude a certain group gets resurrected at that time. Teh Greek supports it. what needs to be done is you to prove that the first resurrection is an ongoing resurrection, combined with all the other events surrounding teh passage. YOu haven't you have just opined your thoughts.



So it is your contention that Satan is not deceiving the nations any more then. All this garbage and false religions and even Satan worship is all man made to you. WOW! But your submission is wrong!

Here is the passage!

20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

See he was cast in a bottomless pit and a seal set so that Satan could not deceive the nations till that 1,000 years which you say has been happening since at least Pentecost! Not gather people for war!

Now let us look at what happens when he is loosed after the 1,000 years which you say has been ongoing.

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

The gathering of the nations is a result of his being loosed NOT a reason for him to be bound! Faulty hermeneutics on your part! But I think you know that.

When is this gathering for war supposed to take place in your submission?




Yes what a text says is what it says ( I wish you would accept that). But you cannot form a doctrine based on one passage. that is your problem- you force the thousand years to be symbolic because you do not see Jesus reigning for a temporary time on earth! But yet Paul says Jesus only reigns until death is conquered! Jesus is not the eternal king! The Father is!

But to get a full picture of a biblical doctrine , you must take all passages related to that concept and put them all together. Of course many verses will not say certain things, but the earthly kingdom Jesus reigns over will only last for 1,000 years. This is a hereneutical priniciple both dispensationalists and covenantalists know is the only way to build a full doctrine. The thousand years is part of the whole kingdom picture.

REv. 19 Jesus weds the church in heaven and then returns (see also Matt. 24 and Luke 22) Jesus establishes His throne after an enormous battle.

Jesus sets HIs throne and rules with a rod of iron ( see my earlier posts where I gave you enormous amounts of SCripture)
Nearly all the earth is restored after jesus returns and is restored to its edenic paradise state. (mostly Isaiah as I already posted)
The earth is repopulated. People prosper. If someone commits sin- it is judged instantly!
There is no deception going on because the deciever is bound (REv. 20)
But once the 1,000 years is up Satan gathers a ost for another war!


Let me get back to your submission as to what teh first resurrection is. As you claim it is the ongoing process when someone becomes a believer ! I do believe that when we are saved we are baptized into Jesus' death and resurrected to new life! BUT BUT BUT

If the 1,000 years is symbolic and in reality an ongoing time span of close to 2,000 years now then this is happening now as well:

6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

Is the earth in its evil now what you call Jesus reigning over the earth? That is like the Watchtower and their contention Jesus began reigning in 1914 and just doesn't seem up to the task of really ruling righteously just yet! Is that what you want me to believe????

It is interesting! Genesis 1and 2 god gives us how things began approx. 6,000 years ago and REv. 20 and 21 show us how He is going to end things ! Why believers feel the need to allegorizew these things and not simply accept them especially when evidence shows they are literal is a mystery to me!

Only because you have won a place in my heart will I post these verses about Jews and Gentiles in the kingdom a second time. I hope this time you will read them.

Gentile Branch of Government:

Rev. 20:4-6
Psalm 72

Jewish branch of govt.

David to rule Jer. 30:9
Ez. 34:23-24
Ez. 37:24-25
Ho. 3:5

12 Apostles over the 12 tribes:

Matt. 19:28
Luke 22:28-30

Princes:

Is. 32:1
Ez. 45:8
Hag. 2:20-23 Zerubabbel to reign as a prince in the kingdom

Judges:
Is. 1:26

Israel to rule over Gentile nations:

Deut. 15:6
Deut. 28:1

The biblical fact that the 1,000 year kingdom is primarily for Israel.

basis and prophetic development.
Jer. 31:31-34
Is. 29:22-24
Is. 30:18-22
Is. 44: 1-5
Is. 45:17
Jer. 24:7
Jer. 50:19-20
Ez. 11:19-20
Ez. 36:2
Hos. 1:10-2:1
Hos. 14:4-8
Joel 2:28-32
Micah 7:18-20
Zeph. 3:9-13
Hos. 1:10-

Israels regathering:

Basis:

Deut. 30:1-10

Prophetic development:

Is. 11:11-12:6
Is. 27:12-13
Is. 43:5-7
Jer. 16:14-15
Jer. 23:3-4
Jer. 23:7-8
Ez. 31:7-10
Ez. 11:14-18
Ez. 36:24
Amos 9:14-15
Zeph. 3:18-20
Zech 10:8-12
Mt. 24:31

Possessing the Land of promise:

Lev. 26:40-45
Deut. 30:5
Is. 27:12
Is. 30: 23-26
Is. 35:1-2
Is. 65:21-24
Jer. 31:1-6
Jer. 31:11-14
Ez. 20:42-44
Ez. 28:25-26
Ez. 34_25-31
Ez. 36:8-15
Ez. 36:28-38
Joel 2:18-27
Joel 3:18
Amos 9:13

The 12 tribes as one nation again:

Jer. 3:18
Ez. 37:15-23

Center of Gentile attention:

Is. 14:1-2
Is. 49:22-23
Is. 61:4-9
Mic. 7:14-17
Zeph 3:20
Zech 8:23

See Naomi: I don't brush things off with a wave of my hand!

 

[Naomi25]

Yeah, you made quotes, of singular verses OUT OF THEIR CONTEXT in God's written Word. I revealed that in my previous post. Why not address that, instead of trying to project your error away from yourself.

I'm sorry, but this is both laughable and in error.
It is in error because your specific 'fault' with me was for 'using a single verse' to prove my point. You said nothing of context...which, I would imagine is always important and you in no way proved I had used my 'single verse' OUT of context. You then, rather ironically, used a single verse in order to prove me wrong, which I could also as easily say you 'used out of context'. You see the boo-boo there, right?
And laughable because whether context is correct or not (that is a whole other conversation which I would gladly take up), doctrines ARE made by verses and passages which speak on the SAME thing, and then bought together to form a whole, more complete picture. That, my friend, is fact, no matter how you may disagree with me.

The John 18:36 verse I quoted directly contradicts how you interpreted the Matthew 12:28 verse instead according to a tradition of man. In case you're not aware, you cannot form a doctrine from one verse saying Christ's Kingdom has already come, while there exists another verse where He directly professes His Kingdom is not of this world (this present world time). You have to use common sense in the setting of where He was speaking.

Okay, now we're getting to the meat of the 'context' issue, which is good. Here are the two passages in question:

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36

And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. -Matthew 12:27–29

Let's agree on something fundamental straight up, okay? Scripture does not contradict scripture. All scripture harmonizes and if our understanding of it seems to be a contradiction, then it is our understanding that must be adjusted.
So, when we come to passages like the two above, where you claim there is a 'contradiction'...Jesus claiming the kingdom is 'not of this world'...but then also say that the kingdom has 'come upon you'...I submit that there is no contradiction. The kingdom primarily manifests in the presence of Jesus Christ, both bodily...as he was then, but also spiritually, as he remains in the lives, through the Spirit, in those who follow him. Thus we can look at the above passages and say that the kingdom was most certainly not an 'earthly' kingdom "of this world", but most certainly did it 'come upon them' when Jesus used his powers to proclaim freedom from sin in his name.
We can also add verses like this to tighten our view:

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” -Luke 17:20–21

Again...this harmonizes quite well with the idea that the kingdom is present through the work and presence of Christ and the Spirit, then, an ongoing....rather than an earthly, theocratic kingdom for the future.

Let me remind you that you say "you cannot form a doctrine from one verse saying Christ's Kingdom has already come, while there exists another verse where He directly professes His Kingdom is not of this world".

You see....this is only a contradiction if you attempt to force the kingdom into being something that it is not. And Luke 17:20-21 tells us quite clearly that Christ's kingdom will not come in ways we can observe it...and yet it is still 'in our midst'.

So...I don't know...let's use a little logic, shall we? The Kingdom is "not of this world"....that means not a normal, earthly, theocratic kingdom. But it has still "come upon us"...that means it had arrived, it was not a future event. And, it did not come "in a way it could be observed", yet was still "in their midst".
I mean...does none of that sound even a little familiar? Jesus came and did a lot of incredible things, proclaiming the "kingdom of God". Then, when he left he promised to always be with us, to the end of the age, leaving us with the promised Holy Spirit....that which was both his presence in spiritual form, in essence, and the 'guarantee of our inheritance'...which, incidentally, is also the kingdom.
The Kingdom came in Christ, then stayed in the Holy Spirit among the Church, over whom Christ is the head. It is 'not of this world', yet 'in our midst'.
No contradiction, and logic pulled straight from what the bible says and ONLY what the bible says.
You may disagree with me, you are free to, but slinging around terms like "doctrines of men" is nothing more than an attempt to make people you disagree with seem like heathens as opposed to your holy self. I suggest you just be honest about how you see me in error and cut out all the rest.

The Matthew 12:28 verse is a Message to the blind Pharisees who claimed to know God's Word, yet denied it, because they should have recognized Jesus' appearance in Jerusalem as written in the Old Testament prophets. Lord Jesus was even still showing them that He is The Messiah while He was upon His cross, near death, quoting directly from Psalms 22:1, which David was given to prophesy of that very event of Christ's crucifixion about a thousand years before it happened. How could the blind Pharisees not know? They rejected the Kingdom by having Jesus crucified, and His Kingdom is still in abeyance until He returns in our near future.

I disagree. This passage is not scolding the Pharisees about their lack of recognizing Jesus' appearance...we see that more in Luke 19:41-44. This passage is about the Pharisees accusing Jesus of casting out demons in Satan's own name. He, of course, corrects them, by telling them that a 'house divided against itself cannot stand' and that HE cast out demons by the Spirit of God, and that therefore the Kingdom of God was upon them. He then goes on to explain that he first bound the strong man of the house so he could 'plunder' his goods....imagery of Christ binding Satan so he may 'save' the souls of many within Satan's
house. And then, Christ finishes the passage by warning against blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

All in all, the context does nothing to harm my case. And doesn't help yours...especially since I don't believe you got the context correct at all.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

So the resurrection is already past in your opinion? No, it is not, but will occur on the day of Christ's future 2nd coming. That day has not yet happened. And it's strange that you include the idea of His future coming when all these things will manifest, yet still try to infer they already happened. Whatever Church system you are heeding, I suggest you quit listening to it, immediately.

‘So the resurrection is already past in your opinion?’ That is not what I’m saying, or meaning to come off as saying. only 1 John 2:8-9 Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth. [9] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

‘which thing is true in him and in you: because darkness is past.’ ‘he that says he is in the light, and hates his brother, is in darkness even until now.’ 1 John 2:11...because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

These threads move so fast, it is difficult to understand what anyone is saying without reading through pages to get ones perspective. Maybe you have already given it, if so can you again?

Ephesians 5:14 Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light.

What ‘arise from the dead’? what resurrection do you say ‘Awake thou that sleep’ is this? Then, Now, or yet future? Or ongoing?

Revelation 20:5-6 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. [6] Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power(O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Corinthians 15:55-57) but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

‘This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he that has a part in the first resurrection: on such the second death has no power:’
^ you do say you have a part in the first resurrection though right?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Actually, Apostle Paul saying Jesus is 'our' Passover is more relevant than Noah's ark as a metaphor. But that still has nothing to do with proof that His Kingdom is already literally manifested here on earth today per the prophetic Word of God.

The resurrection is not about an eternal flesh body, it is about an eternal "spiritual body",

“But that still has nothing to do with proof that His Kingdom is already literally manifested here on earth today per the prophetic Word of God”

wadr is it for seeking after a literal kingdom? Which looks like the world, talks like the world complete with literal thrones and rods to rule others with. Revelation 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

The potter has power over the clay. Assuming their will be clay in this future 1000years reign after the brightness of His coming?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Okay, now we're getting to the meat of the 'context' issue, which is good. Here are the two passages in question:

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36

And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. -Matthew 12:27–29

Let's agree on something fundamental straight up, okay? Scripture does not contradict scripture. All scripture harmonizes and if our understanding of it seems to be a contradiction, then it is our understanding that must be adjusted.
So, when we come to passages like the two above, where you claim there is a 'contradiction'...Jesus claiming the kingdom is 'not of this world'...but then also say that the kingdom has 'come upon you'...I submit that there is no contradiction. The kingdom primarily manifests in the presence of Jesus Christ, both bodily...as he was then, but also spiritually, as he remains in the lives, through the Spirit, in those who follow him. Thus we can look at the above passages and say that the kingdom was most certainly not an 'earthly' kingdom "of this world", but most certainly did it 'come upon them' when Jesus used his powers to proclaim freedom from sin in his name.
We can also add verses like this to tighten our view:

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” -Luke 17:20–21

While I await your answers to all the Scriptures I hope you are reading that I posted yesterday, I feel the need to comment here.

The statements of Matt. 12 occurred before Jesus spoke in JOhn 18! Up to Matt. 12 Jesus and the disciples when He sent them out were preaching the long awaited kingdom of God had arrived-for the king was there! So Jesus said the kingdom had arrived! Pretty hard to say John 18:36 if the kingdom was on earth! Unless, UNLESS something had happened ! And something did! the leadership of Israel rejected the Messiahship of Jesus thus causing the kingdom to be taken away from that generation to be given to another future generation.

When the term kingdom was used by Jews in Jesus day- it brought to mind all the verses I posted that I hope you are bothering this time to read!!!

Even in Acts one, the Apostles were asking if the kingdom was going to be restored after Jesus had revoked the offer. If people look at teh gospels carefully, after the Matt. 12 encounter when the people asked the pharisees "is this the son of David" (it was a rhetorical question) because Jesus had even performed the miracles traditions taught only Messiah would do. They were looking for confirmation from the very people who upheld that teaching! Instead, the leadership rejected Jesus' Messiahship on the basis of He being demon possessed. After this point, if one studies the gospels carefully, one will learn that the "kingdom" was no longer pronounced or people told to repent for the kingdom has arrived (not just the king- but the kingdom. Remember a king reigns over a kingdom, but is not that kingdom). Also one will learn that Jesus performed no more open miracles anymore. Any miracles done after this point were performed on the basis of the individuals faith in Jesus!

The church are the citizens of the king and we are emissaries of His kingdom, but we are not the kingdom. We are strangers and aliens on this earth and look for our kingdom which is in heaven.

 

[Keraz]

The church are the citizens of the king and we are emissaries of His kingdom, but we are not the kingdom. We are strangers and aliens on this earth and look for our kingdom which is in heaven.

Going to heaven is never going to happen for the Church. Our destiny is to be here on earth, fulfilling the Commission.

ALL ISRAEL WILL ONCE AGAIN LIVE IN THEIR OWN LAND:

Deuteronomy 33:26 There is no one like the God of Jeshurun [The upright one= Israel] who rides on the heavens to your aid, on the clouds in His glory.

Deuteronomy 33:27 The Eternal God is your refuge, He drives out your enemies before you, commanding their destruction.

Deuteronomy33:28 So, Israel will live in safety in their own Land. A prosperous and fertile Land

Deuteronomy 33:29 Happy are you, Israel, blessed and set free. The Lord is the shield and sword that guards you. Your enemies will cower before you and you will take over their high places.


Ezekiel 28:24-26 No longer will My people, Israel, suffer the scorn of their neighbours I will gather them from every nation, to live undisturbed in their own Land, which I gave to My servant, Jacob. After I execute judgement on the wicked neighbours, you will then display My holiness for the world to see.


Jeremiah 32:1-15 Jeremiah is told to buy a field and seal the title deed in a jar, kept for a distant future time, when again Israel will live in the Land. [All 12 tribes]

Jeremiah 32:37-41 I shall gather My people from every land from where I have banished them. It will be a joy to Me to do them good when I plant them in this Land.

Isaiah 11:12-13 The Lord will raise a banner and assemble those from Israel and Judah, dispersed among the nations. The enmity between Israel and Judah will cease.

Isaiah 65:9 I shall give descendants to Jacob and heirs to Judah, My chosen ones, who will possess My Land. Those who serve Me will live there.

Isaiah 14:1 The Lord will show compassion and will again make Israel His choice. He will resettle them in their native soil, where aliens will join them.

Ezekiel 36:8-12 But, you, mountains of Israel- put forth your fruits, for My people, Israel, for their homecoming is near. I shall settle on you many people – the whole House of Israel, they will increase and be fruitful.


Psalms 126:1-3 When the Lord restored the fortunes of Zion, we were like people renewed in health. Our mouths were full of laughter and we sang for joy. The nations said; the Lord has done great things for them. Great things, indeed, the Lord has done for us and we rejoiced.

Psalms 147:2 The Lord rebuilds Jerusalem and gathers the scattered Israelites.

But now, since the Advent of Jesus, it is every faithful Christian who is the Israel of God, His holy people, the heirs of His promises.

Reference, REB, NIV, KJV. Some verses abridged.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Going to heaven is never going to happen for the Church. Our destiny is to be here on earth, fulfilling the Commission.

So this passage doesn't apply to the church according to the hypothesis you propose:

16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

I fully accept that eternity will be spent on a renewed earth! that is biblical. But teh church saints who are dead are in heaven now as I showed you from SCripture and you cannot rebut except for allegorizing it away.

Also we are in heaven to come back to earth after we marry Jesus!

Sorry but all your game of twister with the SCriptures hasn't shown this passage wrong.

YOu say the wedding isn't in heaven, but you can't show it is anywhere else! Normal grammar wins!

But now, since the Advent of Jesus, it is every faithful Christian who is the Israel of God, His holy people, the heirs of His promises.

I know you believe in the heretical doctrine of replacement theology- but you do so by denying the Scriptures.

YOu make God a 1 st grade grammar God! And Paul one who writes like an idiot!

Galatians 6:16
And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Go to an English teacher, and ask her how many groups of people are being addressed here!
1. Peace be upon those who walk by this rule, and then also upon the Israel of God.

If you had bothered to read Pauls writings, Paul was very careful in defining Israel after the flesh and Israel after the Spirit (Saved Jews) who are the Israel of God!

So who are the nations who are going to be required to keep the feast of tabernacles during the millenmial kingdom. You have the church still dead!

Zechariah 14:16
And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

Also if the church is still dead how can this be:

Matthew 19:28
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The twelve apostles are part of teh church so how can they be alive in the millennial kingdom when you say the church is not resurrected until after the 1,000 years? Which by the way they are not called holy and blessed because they are not part of the first resurrection!

So you don't even have the church being considered holy and blessed!!!!!

Boy your translation doesn't even resemble Gods Word!

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I do not see Rev 20 as 'eternity'.

Doesn't matter what you see!

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

This part is whether you like it or not! Or the "beginning" of eternity after time has ended!

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Naomi25]

While I await your answers to all the Scriptures I hope you are reading that I posted yesterday, I feel the need to comment here.

First off: you posted all those verses by tagging yourself. If I hadn't specifically gone back looking for them, I wouldn't have had then come up as "atten'd" for me.

Secondly: I can, if you truly desire, go through your mountain of OT references to the 'kingdom'. However, as I've discussed previously, there remains between us a huge wedge in our hermeneutical interpretation...that being that YOU see the unfulfilled kingdom promises of the OT as proof of a yet future fulfillment, and I see the NT as clearly redefining those kingdom promises in the new light of Jesus Christ. Personally, I think letting Jesus and the Apostles guide us is the more worthy interpretation.
My point being...is it really going to do us any good for me to walk through ALL those verses and go "this is pointing to the NT promise of that"...when you fundamentally disagree with that interpretation? That's probably a waste of both our time.
I think, personally, that the more...interesting and weighty...debate lies in the NT. Not because the OT doesn't matter or have weight, but because the NT is the OT revealed. Because Jesus is what the OT was pointing towards. Therefore if we cannot find in the NT what we THINK the OT is saying, then we must, I believe, question whether our interpretation of the OT is correct. Jesus turned many ideas upon their head, and I think we must acknowledge he had authority to do that.
So, my question to you is...all these OT verses...where do you see them being reiterated or 're-promised' in a physical/same type way, in the NT? And if you don't....why might that be? And how does that weigh up against the sort of 'kingdom' promises we see Christ making?

The statements of Matt. 12 occurred before Jesus spoke in JOhn 18! Up to Matt. 12 Jesus and the disciples when He sent them out were preaching the long awaited kingdom of God had arrived-for the king was there! So Jesus said the kingdom had arrived! Pretty hard to say John 18:36 if the kingdom was on earth! Unless, UNLESS something had happened ! And something did! the leadership of Israel rejected the Messiahship of Jesus thus causing the kingdom to be taken away from that generation to be given to another future generation.

Again, you are putting something into scripture that is simply not there.

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If my kingdom were of this world, my servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But my kingdom is not from the world.” -John 18:36

And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. -Matthew 12:27–29

Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, “The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or ‘There!’ for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you.” -Luke 17:20–21

Therefore I tell you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people producing its fruits. -Matthew 21:43

Pray tell, where does it state that the Kingdom is given to a future generation? Nowhere. We are told it has 'come upon us' (present reality), it's 'not of this world' (physical theocracy), that it 'cannot be observed' (spiritual reality), in our 'midst' (spiritually present now) and that it was taken away from an unbelieving people (unbelieving Jews) and given to a 'people' (Gentiles) producing 'fruit' (those who believe).
Absolutely nothing about the kingdom being put off until a future generation of Jews 'gets it right'. The most we can point to is Rom 11 where Paul implies that there will come a time when God will graft the majority of national Israel back to the Olive Tree....which is the body of faith. But that's them JOINING the existing kingdom, not a kingdom being birthed and handed to them.

When the term kingdom was used by Jews in Jesus day- it brought to mind all the verses I posted that I hope you are bothering this time to read!!!

I'm sure it did. But we have the whole of the NT and Jesus's own, copious teachings on the Kingdom to set them straight. The kingdom was not what they were expecting. Just like the Messiah was not like they were expecting.

Even in Acts one, the Apostles were asking if the kingdom was going to be restored after Jesus had revoked the offer. If people look at teh gospels carefully, after the Matt. 12 encounter when the people asked the pharisees "is this the son of David" (it was a rhetorical question) because Jesus had even performed the miracles traditions taught only Messiah would do. They were looking for confirmation from the very people who upheld that teaching! Instead, the leadership rejected Jesus' Messiahship on the basis of He being demon possessed. After this point, if one studies the gospels carefully, one will learn that the "kingdom" was no longer pronounced or people told to repent for the kingdom has arrived (not just the king- but the kingdom. Remember a king reigns over a kingdom, but is not that kingdom). Also one will learn that Jesus performed no more open miracles anymore. Any miracles done after this point were performed on the basis of the individuals faith in Jesus!

The church are the citizens of the king and we are emissaries of His kingdom, but we are not the kingdom. We are strangers and aliens on this earth and look for our kingdom which is in heaven.

Yes....lets look at Acts. The disciples, still 'dull' in their own spirits (unenlightened by new knowledge given by the Holy Spirit), asked Jesus once again about this supposed kingdom they thought they were supposed to receive. "Jesus....are you NOW going to whoop the Romans and save us all?"
They still had no concept that his death, burial and resurrection was to save people from sin and death, rather than the Romans and the physical conquest of earthly foes.
Jesus gently replies its not for them to know, and that what their business is, is to be 'witnesses to the ends of the earth'; basically - to take the gospel out to the whole world.
What gospel?

Matthew 4:23 - And he went throughout all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues and proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom and healing every disease and every affliction among the people.
Mark 1:15 - and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
Matthew 24:14 - And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Indeed...when John the Baptist was, himself, confused about Jesus...he was, after all, an OT Prophet, he would have also expected the Messiah to have come to conquer and bring in this OT Kingdom, what message did Jesus send back to his cousin?

Now when John heard in prison about the deeds of the Christ, he sent word by his disciples and said to him, “Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another?” And Jesus answered them, “Go and tell John what you hear and see: the blind receive their sight and the lame walk, lepers are cleansed and the deaf hear, and the dead are raised up, and the poor have good news preached to them. -Matthew 11:2–5

Jesus is telling John that the 'gospel of the kingdom' was going forth...Jesus was bringing the promised kingdom...the freedom from death and sin...by his miracles. He was fundamentally showing that the Kingdom was not just about a person sitting on an earthly throne and defeating earthly enemies with swords of steal. The Kingdom is about releasing people from the bondage of sin! That is a huge difference! And yes, of course, by defeating sin and death, we are therefore promised this inheritance of a perfect land...but we look to the new heavens and earth for that....not just a small parcel of promised land, but the whole cosmos remade to dwell in in the presence of God.

 

[Naomi25]

Doesn't matter what you see!

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

This part is whether you like it or not! Or the "beginning" of eternity after time has ended!

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Oh, come on...do try and have a little conversational honesty.
You asked me in Post #693 "If this is eternity, are you admitting that Satan will be released to deceive the nations again afer your XXXX time frame?"

My answer was: "I don't see this as eternity"....therefore your question is moot and needs to be re-framed at least.
You can't ask if I see something one way, and when I tell you I don't, insist in fact I do, then tell me how wrong I am. That's just a little dishonest.

If you really want an 'in depth' answer apart from 'no', here it is:
Rev 21 is the beginning of 'eternity'...the end portion of Rev 20 is...I would say it 'straddles' the period, however long or short it may be, that covers the final judgment, etc. Only God knows how long that will actually take. And, I can suppose you will agree with me that the beginning of Rev 20 is certainly not 'eternity'. Regardless of where you put the 1000 years, it is not eternity.