The means of death is irrelevant to the proposition being made.. go figure our what the proposition was .. then explain how the means of death was relevant to that proposition.
Where do aborted babies go?
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The means of death is irrelevant to the proposition being made.. go figure our what the proposition was .. then explain how the means of death was relevant to that proposition.
One could say killing anyone is doing them a favor by sending them to heaven .. the problem is that we don't know if heaven exists - or even if it does that his person will go to heaven.. what if we are expediting their trip to Hell ?
There is a problem with your logic in conflating a Fetus - with born living human. A 20 year old has all kinds of experience, memories, Family, and so on.
The Fetus - prior to the soul alighting - is aware of nothing - has none of the things.
I see you understood what I was driving at. If it is that hard to find the strait gate and narrow way, so hard that few find it, indeed it would looks as if you would be doing the unborn a favor by aborting them if they are guaranteed going to Heaven. Allowing them to be born would mean most wind up not finding that narrow way. So what about Heaven, Hell, and Paradise?
Jesus said that in the Sermon on the Mount:
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
According to Matthew, he said the same day something else that sounds like a contradiction:
Matthew 8:1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him. . . .
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Christians tend to confuse Heaven and Paradise; but they are different places. Paradise or "the Garden" is where Abraham welcomes many souls. They do not go to Heaven. Very few go directly to Heaven after the death of their bodies. I would say Elijah, Enoch and Moses did along with a few others.
This confusion is seen in another apparent paradox. Jesus tells the thief, "I say to you, Today you will be with me in Paradise." Later after the Resurrection, he tells Mary Magdalene not to touch him since he had not ascended to Heaven yet. A little while later, he tells Thomas to touch him -- telling me the real "ascension" to Heaven happened between those two events. It was not being received up into a cloud which happened later. And the thief did not find the "strait gate" or the "narrow way." He went to Paradise.
I think the lesson should be that it is relatively easy to enter Paradise. It is very hard to go directly to Heaven.
Thus if God's plan was for a spirit or soul to incarnate and an abortion occurs, I would say in most cases it would return to Paradise. I will grant however that things could go wrong. I know many people say there is an age of accountability -- I don't see that myself. I think if the spirit or soul was attached to a fetus and became angry enough to fall into a murderous rage itself, it would cause a problem. I don't see it as going to some burning hell, but it could get lost, confused, or fall asleep. The violence done, along with the loss of blood, could cause problems. If Cain's blood could cry out from the ground, I think the blood of aborted fetuses -- if they had already been "owned" by a spirit -- would also cry out.
Interesting perspective.
Here are the questions we need to answer.
1) where did the soul come from prior to alighting
2) Where will it go after the body dies.
3) are vacations allowed in heaven.
3) So after a trillion years chanting Hail Mary's ( just joking because God forbids praising him in heaven - das ist verboten) can one take a vacation - go to one of the millions of planets to live another life .. thing is - during that life you will not remember your past life.
If your answer is yes - then we know where the soul comes from .. and where it goes after.
If your answer is No - then what fun is Heaven ?
4) finally to the point - "When does the soul alight" ? If you were in heaven .. at what point would you enter the cradle awaiting a new soul ?
I say it is at the time when Cognition happens. I think therefor I am.
Phoneman777
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Ring the bell, school's in...please turn to Mark chapter 12:
First, Jesus affirms in verse 25 that the dead don't rise until the Resurrection which is future, and clarifies what the state of affairs regarding marital relations shall be in heaven.
Next, Jesus in verses 26 and 27 addresses their unbelief in the Resurrection by saying, "God of the living, not the dead" which He says to prove the truth of a coming Resurrection, not to prove that the dead are already conscious and in heaven, as you suggest was His intent.
Please listen to what Tyndale said in his book, An Answer to (Catholic) Sir Thomas Moore Dialogue, pp. 180-181:
"The true faith putteth (claims) the Resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put (claim) that the souls did ever live. And the Pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the spirit and the flesh do agree in a Christian man. And because the fleshly minded Pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to establish it."
"And when he (Sir Thomas Moore) "proveth" that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, "If God be there God, they be in heaven, for He is not the God of the dead", there he stealeth away Christ's argument wherewith HE proveth the Resurrection: that Abraham and all saints should rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world, and with that doctrine he taketh away the Resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect.
(and with a sarcastic tone)
"Nay, Paul, thou art unlearned. Go to Master Moore, and learn a new way. We be NOT more miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great glory as Christ Who is risen again....I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine if he had (known) it - that the souls of their dead had been in joy - as he did (comfort them) with the Resurrection - that the dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven in as great joy as the angels, after your doctrine, show me what cause there should be of the Resurrection?"
Tyndale, as well as the other Reformers did not accept the lies of the papacy, but today, non-Catholics everywhere are falling all over themselves to establish papal pagan dogma.
"And when he (Sir Thomas Moore) "proveth" that the saints be in heaven in glory with Christ already, saying, "If God be there God, they be in heaven, for He is not the God of the dead", there he stealeth away Christ's argument wherewith HE proveth the Resurrection: that Abraham and all saints should rise again, and not that their souls were in heaven; which doctrine was not yet in the world, and with that doctrine he taketh away the Resurrection quite, and maketh Christ's argument of none effect.
(and with a sarcastic tone)
"Nay, Paul, thou art unlearned. Go to Master Moore, and learn a new way. We be NOT more miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great glory as Christ Who is risen again....I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine if he had (known) it - that the souls of their dead had been in joy - as he did (comfort them) with the Resurrection - that the dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven in as great joy as the angels, after your doctrine, show me what cause there should be of the Resurrection?"
Tyndale, as well as the other Reformers did not accept the lies of the papacy, but today, non-Catholics everywhere are falling all over themselves to establish papal pagan dogma.
You assume body and soul go together. No one is arguing that the physical resurrection has already taken place. Abraham's body may have returned to dust and ashes, but that does not mean his soul and spirit did.
John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
No, that doesn't mean their physical body will never die.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
I know all that. I have heard it a hundred times from those who support abortion. But I also know is it complete bunkum.
Saying it is not a baby...it is not a baby over and over again is not an argument for anything. In fact, it is not an argument at all.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
I have backed up all my claims in my thread the truth about ABORTION.
As for the academic rigor bit. Don't make me laugh. What is academic that the moment before a baby is born it is not a baby and the moment after it is born it is a baby as many pro-aborts claim? If that is academic rigor, then I suffer from rigormortise.
marksman
My eldest granddaughter showing the result of her
A heartbeat has been recorded at 18 days. Something that does not exist does not have a heartbeat. In some States in America a law has been passed that if the doctor can record a heartbeat they are not allowed to abort the baby. I wonder why?
No a problem for me .. the problem is yours .. and if you can't figure out the context of the conversation you are in "the proposition / The Claim" then obviously you are talking pointlessly.
A heartbeat has not been recorded at 18 days. You are confused- and do not understand what you are taking about.
You didn't back up any of your claims - with valid information .. "Back up your claim that a heartbeat exists at 18 days" from conception .. this is laughable nonsense on steroids.
Nor have you answered any of the questions - which is part of "Academic Rigor" and not engaging in fallacious nonsense.
1) How is the zygote significantly different than other human cells - such that a zygote is a living human "a Baby" and the others are not.
2) How can a baby exist when not one cell from the body of that baby has been created.
3) When does the soul alight .. and if the soul has not alighted yet - is it wrong to abort the process of human creation.
Your claim is laughable nonsense for the gullible - support your claim that a heartbeat has been recorded 18 days after conception.
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Oh, don't get me started about other planets.:) I can remember living on other planets. It is a big universe where almost anything is possible.
I see you are discussing heartbeats with someone else (I have him on ignore, by the way). A beating heart is not real evidence that a spirit is present. I have left my body and gone other places. My heart kept beating while I was out of my body.
Humans have a complicated system of doing things. There is a type of "life" that exists solely to "run bodies." We humans do not know how to make our hearts beat. We don't know how to regulate blood pressure, digest food, etc. These functions are part of what scientists call the "autonomic nervous system." It's more than a nervous system however. There is a non-physical entity involved. Some call it the "body elemental." Scientologists call it the "genetic entity." It's truly amazing what information it has -- it has experiences from past evolution even.
Cognition is another strange phenomenon. Some children can recall past lives at first. They tend to forget them as they grow up. Two things are involved, I think. Our culture tells them such memories are not real, and second we tend to lose access to certain records over time. Records of past lives are not kept on the earth. Think of how boring life would be if we knew we'd done this all before. Part of enjoying life is experiencing things in a new way -- so some people want to forget. Then too, there are people born with a purpose to correct a spiritual problem. If they mess up, that is another reason to want to forget things. Finally, there is karma -- and if someone is creating more karmic debts in this life, there is no point at all in allowing him to know about past karmic debts.
I think "human life" begins when a spirit "covers" a fetus. He is aware of it, takes possession of it and begins to program its brain cells. That has next to nothing to do with the autonomic nervous system which operates separately. There is not person here who can honestly say his heart would stop beating if he stopped commanding it to beat.
There is also the phenomenon of the "vegetative state" -- where no intelligence can be discerned -- but the body keeps living. What I have called the "body elemental" earlier is still there, running the body. The Bible refers to this type of "vegetative" intelligence too. It compares men to grass and trees. Grass is very undeveloped. Psalms speaks of men being like grass. We all start off with "grass" being our vegetative intelligence. Jesus used "herb" when speaking of the mustard plant.
Isaiah 40:6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:
7 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: because the spirit of the Lord bloweth upon it: surely the people is grass.
8 The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever.
When we know what Psalms also says about grass, why are we confused about what Revelation says about grass?
Revelation 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.
Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
Such "grass" can grow and become a tree, according to Jesus' teaching about the mustard seed. Moses also said directly that man is a tree, although it's almost universally terribly translated. Young's Literal Translation got it almost right: Man is a tree.
YLT Deuteronomy 20:19 When thou layest siege unto a city many days, to fight against it, to capture it, thou dost not destroy its trees to force an axe against them, for of them thou dost eat, and them thou dost not cut down -- for man's [is] the tree of the field -- to go in at thy presence in the siege.
A parallel is being made there: Don't cut down the fruit tree that bears fruit -- it's like a man.
A beating heart is a wonderful thing, and it's even more wonderful if a spirit takes possession of that body, and both body and soul are changed and brought into the kingdom -- not staying as grass.
I like the concept of "Karmic Debt" - kind of like building up credits for your next vacation -- or "reverse credits - bad deeds" which make one end up in a less desirable place on the next vacation :)
I like the parable about the talents. I think it shows quite a lot about karma. The "man" travelling to another country gives three of his servants money: One gets five talents, one gets two talents and the last one gets one talent. What psychology is there in that? Why did he trust one more than the other two, and why did he trust the last one with only one?
Sure enough, he judged it right. The fellow who wasn't trusted as much didn't do very well. He was given a chance to improve but didn't take it.
The last guy took his talent and buried it in the dirt. I see that as some spirit incarnating on earth and burying himself in his earthly body of dirt.
The first two have doubled the money given to them, and they're rewarded being told they'll be made rulers over many things. Do well, and your reward is being trusted with even more. When I first read the first part of parable, I thought they had given the money back to their master. They certainly offered it back to him, and I thought they had. I was wrong and found out when I saw what happened to the unfaithful servant. The master says take that talent from him and give it to the man who has ten. I said, "What? The master didn't really want or need the money back?"
It amazes me then when people say Jesus did it all, all they have to do is say a few words about accepting him -- and that's the end of the story. They may be surprised when they find out that when Jesus gives us something, he expects us to produce something.
Matthew 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
It might have better for that man if he had never been born. It might be better for some if they stayed wherever they are and didn't come to take on bodies on the earth.
Mark 14:21 The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.
There's another interesting story about karmic debt. Yes, Jesus takes on our debt for a while. It's like someone taking a homeless person in, giving a place to live, food to eat, a place to take a bath and a phone number. Then he can get a job. Jesus expects us to do well if he takes on our debt like that; and one way to help pay off that debt is to be generous with others. Thus the story about the master who forgave his servant a huge debt. The servant then goes out and treats someone who owes him a little money quite harshly. His master then says the debt is back -- it's no longer forgiven.
Matthew 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
Who are the tormentors? I'm not sure. I figure it could be almost anything. It could be demons or like-minded people in "hell." It could also mean being born into hellholes on earth. I don't know, but I think we can see that there is a way God can require us to pay some of those karmic debts. It's up to us to choose the easy way or the unpleasant way.
Other passages that are worthy of consideration is in the beginning of the Sermon on the Mount .. where Jesus
The first line "Blessed are the poor in spirit" for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Jesus then introduces severity of sin .. Some will be greater and some less so on the kingdom of heaven. He then states that only the one who is more righteous than the Pharisees and Teachers of the Law will make it.
Fortunately for us - this is a rather low bar .. Jesus did not think much of these folks.
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