If Jesus was the Son of God before he became man...

[Heyzeus]

oh yes, I forgot your Job 1 and 6.

I have stated this a many of times also, In the topic “The book of Job - real or allegorical?” read post #67
Here is the LINK.
The book of Job - real or allegorical?

sons of God are not angels but humans,

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

The son's of God are "Son's of God" they are not humans .. nor angels .. they are the other Gods .. the Divine Pantheon in which the Israelite's and near all others in the near east believed in.

Sorry - but it is what it is.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Why are you quoting NT passages that have nothing to do with "the other" Son's of God - This conversation is not about Jesus - but about these other beings described in the OT - written by folks who had no idea about Jesus. This is not about what you believe the text to mean .. this is not about what I think the text means.

This is about what the Israelite's believed the Text meant ... Do you understand this distinction ? If so .. then we can communicate on this topic further ... if not .. then we must figure out how to get you to understand this distinction.

The question I am after is "What did the Israelite's interpret "Sons of God" to mean. ..as it that is the only perspective that matters among the three of us.

Fortunately - we know a fair bit about what the Israelite's believed - both through the Bible but also through Archaeology and History.

Care to take a stab at it prior me to telling you the correct answer :) ?!

On Job - "Satan was among them" .. so Satan is on of the "Son's of God" - not sure what else you would like to say about Job .. but clearly it argues against your position.

unless of course - you want to argue that Satan is just some bad angel among the crowd - which gets even more humorous from the perspective of the ancient Israelite's.

Now if you want to Change the topic to Jesus - which you seem want to do - we can talk about the interaction between Jesus and "the Angel"
right at the beginning of the NT - talk about the parallels to the advocate in Job - an advocate with some rather amazing powers .. seemingly above that of a lowly angel .. but hey .. who am I to argue semantics as this will not matter to the moral of the story.[/QUOTE\]

In 1 Peter 3:18–22, Peter refers to spirits in prison because they disobeyed in Noah’s day (1 Pet. 3:19–20). Though disputed, the word “spirits” most likely refers to evil spirits (Matt. 8:16; 12:45; Luke 4:36; 10:20; Acts 19:12–16). The connection of these spirits with Noah’s day points strongly to Genesis 6. That these “spirits in prison” are fallen angels is further confirmed by similar passages in 2 Peter and Jude.

In 2 Peter 2:4–10, for example, the apostle cites three Old Testament examples of God’s judgment as a warning to false teachers. First are the fallen angels who are chained and awaiting final judgment (2 Pet. 2:4). The second and third examples are the flood in Noah’s day (2 Pet. 2:5; cf. Gen. 6–8) and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (2 Pet. 2:6; Gen. 19). Given that the second and third examples not only come from Genesis but are also listed in chronological order, it makes sense to see the first example as also coming from Genesis. (Genesis 6:1–4 comes right before the flood narrative, after all.) Since angels are spiritual beings, Peter’s reference to their being “chained” refers not to physical chains, but rather to a limitation of their activity—presumably to prevent them from indulging in such wickedness again.

Jude, like Peter, provides three Old Testament examples of God’s judgment (Jude 5–7). Unlike Peter, he doesn’t mention the flood and doesn’t place them in chronological order. Still, Jude 6 parallels 2 Peter 2:4 and appears to be an allusion to Genesis 6:1–4. These angels demonstrated sinful pride by abandoning their position of authority and leaving their proper dwelling. They’re now being “kept in eternal chains” until the Day of Judgment. The comparison with the men of Sodom and Gomorrah in Jude 7 (“just as Sodom and Gomorrah . . . likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire”) implies that this was also the angels’ sin in Jude 6.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

I would hope one would get more out of the scriptures that that .. but each to his own :)

Jesus himself said the way you would know his true disciples is that they would have love among themselves. John 13:35

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

First thankls for the reply, second no reson to beliece what we want when the bible is clear as day.

I have answered this question countless of times, In the topic “GEN 1:1-2 SPEAKS MORE THAN CREATION!” read post #131
Here is the LINK.
GEN 1:1-2 SPEAKS MORE THAN CREATION!

That answers your question.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

And if you are continuing to say that the Sons of God at Job 1:6;38:7 were not referring to Angels I still disagree.

In Peter 3:18–22, Peter refers to spirits in prison because they disobeyed in Noah’s day (1 Pet. 3:19–20). Though disputed, the word “spirits” most likely refers to evil spirits (cf. Matt. 8:16; 12:45; Luke 4:36; 10:20; Acts 19:12–16). The connection of these spirits with Noah’s day points strongly to Genesis 6. That these “spirits in prison” are fallen angels is further confirmed by similar passages in 2 Peter and Jude.
In 2 Peter 2:4–10, for example, the apostle cites three Old Testament examples of God’s judgment as a warning to false teachers. First are the fallen angels who are chained and awaiting final judgment (2 Pet. 2:4). The second and third examples are the flood in Noah’s day (2 Pet. 2:5; cf. Gen. 6–8) and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (2 Pet. 2:6; Gen. 19). Given that the second and third examples not only come from Genesis but are also listed in chronological order, it makes sense to see the first example as also coming from Genesis. (Genesis 6:1–4 comes right before the flood narrative, after all.) Since angels are spiritual beings, Peter’s reference to their being “chained” refers not to physical chains, but rather to a limitation of their activity—presumably to prevent them from indulging in such wickedness again.

Jude, like Peter, provides three Old Testament examples of God’s judgment (Jude 5–7). Unlike Peter, he doesn’t mention the flood and doesn’t place them in chronological order. Still, Jude 6 parallels 2 Peter 2:4 and appears to be an allusion to Genesis 6:1–4. These angels demonstrated sinful pride by abandoning their position of authority and leaving their proper dwelling. They’re now being “kept in eternal chains” until the Day of Judgment. The comparison with the men of Sodom and Gomorrah in Jude 7 (“just as Sodom and Gomorrah . . . likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire”) implies that this was also the angels’ sin in Jude 6.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

The son's of God are "Son's of God" they are not humans .. nor angels .. they are the other Gods .. the Divine Pantheon in which the Israelite's and near all others in the near east believed in.

Sorry - but it is what it is.

1 Peter 3:18–22, Peter refers to spirits in prison because they disobeyed in Noah’s day (1 Pet. 3:19–20). Though disputed, the word “spirits” most likely refers to evil spirits (cf. Matt. 8:16; 12:45; Luke 4:36; 10:20; Acts 19:12–16). The connection of these spirits with Noah’s day points strongly to Genesis 6. That these “spirits in prison” are fallen angels is further confirmed by similar passages in 2 Peter and Jude.

In 2 Peter 2:4–10, for example, the apostle cites three Old Testament examples of God’s judgment as a warning to false teachers. First are the fallen angels who are chained and awaiting final judgment (2 Pet. 2:4). The second and third examples are the flood in Noah’s day (2 Pet. 2:5; cf. Gen. 6–8) and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (2 Pet. 2:6; Gen. 19). Given that the second and third examples not only come from Genesis but are also listed in chronological order, it makes sense to see the first example as also coming from Genesis. (Genesis 6:1–4 comes right before the flood narrative, after all.) Since angels are spiritual beings, Peter’s reference to their being “chained” refers not to physical chains, but rather to a limitation of their activity—presumably to prevent them from indulging in such wickedness again.

Jude, like Peter, provides three Old Testament examples of God’s judgment (Jude 5–7). Unlike Peter, he doesn’t mention the flood and doesn’t place them in chronological order. Still, Jude 6 parallels 2 Peter 2:4 and appears to be an allusion to Genesis 6:1–4. These angels demonstrated sinful pride by abandoning their position of authority and leaving their proper dwelling. They’re now being “kept in eternal chains” until the Day of Judgment. The comparison with the men of Sodom and Gomorrah in Jude 7 (“just as Sodom and Gomorrah . . . likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire”) implies that this was also the angels’ sin in Jude 6.

 

[Heyzeus]

Jesus himself said the way you would know his true disciples is that they would have love among themselves. John 13:35

Jesus also said other things - teachings related what is now known as the "Golden Rule" for example

 

[Heyzeus]

1 Peter 3:18–22, Peter refers to spirits in prison because they disobeyed in Noah’s day (1 Pet. 3:19–20). Though disputed, the word “spirits” most likely refers to evil spirits (cf. Matt. 8:16; 12:45; Luke 4:36; 10:20; Acts 19:12–16). The connection of these spirits with Noah’s day points strongly to Genesis 6. That these “spirits in prison” are fallen angels is further confirmed by similar passages in 2 Peter and Jude.

In 2 Peter 2:4–10, for example, the apostle cites three Old Testament examples of God’s judgment as a warning to false teachers. First are the fallen angels who are chained and awaiting final judgment (2 Pet. 2:4). The second and third examples are the flood in Noah’s day (2 Pet. 2:5; cf. Gen. 6–8) and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (2 Pet. 2:6; Gen. 19). Given that the second and third examples not only come from Genesis but are also listed in chronological order, it makes sense to see the first example as also coming from Genesis. (Genesis 6:1–4 comes right before the flood narrative, after all.) Since angels are spiritual beings, Peter’s reference to their being “chained” refers not to physical chains, but rather to a limitation of their activity—presumably to prevent them from indulging in such wickedness again.

Jude, like Peter, provides three Old Testament examples of God’s judgment (Jude 5–7). Unlike Peter, he doesn’t mention the flood and doesn’t place them in chronological order. Still, Jude 6 parallels 2 Peter 2:4 and appears to be an allusion to Genesis 6:1–4. These angels demonstrated sinful pride by abandoning their position of authority and leaving their proper dwelling. They’re now being “kept in eternal chains” until the Day of Judgment. The comparison with the men of Sodom and Gomorrah in Jude 7 (“just as Sodom and Gomorrah . . . likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire”) implies that this was also the angels’ sin in Jude 6.

Why would you try to use NT to figure out what the ancient Israelite's believed .. this makes no sense.

 

[101G]

And if you are continuing to say that the Sons of God at Job 1:6;38:7 were not referring to Angels I still disagree.

In Peter 3:18–22, Peter refers to spirits in prison because they disobeyed in Noah’s day (1 Pet. 3:19–20). Though disputed, the word “spirits” most likely refers to evil spirits (cf. Matt. 8:16; 12:45; Luke 4:36; 10:20; Acts 19:12–16). The connection of these spirits with Noah’s day points strongly to Genesis 6. That these “spirits in prison” are fallen angels is further confirmed by similar passages in 2 Peter and Jude.
In 2 Peter 2:4–10, for example, the apostle cites three Old Testament examples of God’s judgment as a warning to false teachers. First are the fallen angels who are chained and awaiting final judgment (2 Pet. 2:4). The second and third examples are the flood in Noah’s day (2 Pet. 2:5; cf. Gen. 6–8) and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah (2 Pet. 2:6; Gen. 19). Given that the second and third examples not only come from Genesis but are also listed in chronological order, it makes sense to see the first example as also coming from Genesis. (Genesis 6:1–4 comes right before the flood narrative, after all.) Since angels are spiritual beings, Peter’s reference to their being “chained” refers not to physical chains, but rather to a limitation of their activity—presumably to prevent them from indulging in such wickedness again.

Jude, like Peter, provides three Old Testament examples of God’s judgment (Jude 5–7). Unlike Peter, he doesn’t mention the flood and doesn’t place them in chronological order. Still, Jude 6 parallels 2 Peter 2:4 and appears to be an allusion to Genesis 6:1–4. These angels demonstrated sinful pride by abandoning their position of authority and leaving their proper dwelling. They’re now being “kept in eternal chains” until the Day of Judgment. The comparison with the men of Sodom and Gomorrah in Jude 7 (“just as Sodom and Gomorrah . . . likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire”) implies that this was also the angels’ sin in Jude 6.

GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for the reply, second, well you answered your own question of 1 Peter 3:18-20. now the answer to those, (disobedient, human), listen, 1 Peter 4:4 "Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:"1 Peter 4:5 "Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead."1 Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

now what about the angels who was disobedient? as you said, but without any acess, not limited, but no access at all to the suface of thius world, Jude 1:6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." 2 Peter 2:4 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" a chain, be it phyical or spiritual restrict access to anything, and that restrected access for these angels, as said, was in hell, alive men and women are not in hell.

so the angels that sinned was in chains under darkness. so they was not roming around on the surface of the earth. that puts an end to your fallen angel theory.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Jesus also said other things - teachings related what is now known as the "Golden Rule" for example

There is nothing wrong with exposing spiritual falsehood. True Christians don't kill each other. Wars will come Jesus said so, he didn't however say The True God would cause them or be on any side cheering his people to kill one another. Jesus simply said wars would come. The only war that The True God will have a part in is Armageddon will he commands his Only Begotten Son Jesus with his Angels to go destroying his enemies the unrighteous.

 

[Heyzeus]

There is nothing wrong with exposing spiritual falsehood. True Christians don't kill each other. Wars will come Jesus said so, he didn't however say The True God would cause them or be on any side cheering his people to kill one another. Jesus simply said wars would come. The only war that The True God will have a part in is Armageddon will he commands his Only Begotten Son Jesus with his Angels to go destroying his enemies the unrighteous.

Then there are not many Christians .. are there :)

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Why would you try to use NT to figure out what the ancient Israelite's believed .. this makes no sense.

Yes it does, it shows that Peter and Jude link the Flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah to the Sons of God All the incidents in Genesis concerning the Flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah Sons of God were Angels not men.

 

[Heyzeus]

Yes it does, it shows that Peter and Jude link the Flood and the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah to the Sons of God All the incidents in Genesis concerning the Flood, the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah Sons of God were Angels not men.

No .. it doesn't .. The perspective of people living at the time of Jesus has nothing to do with the perspective of the Israelite's in 1300 BC.

We are not talking about YOUR perspective - which is different than the fellow who wrote Peter - but we are not talking about the fellow who wrote Peter's perspective either .. or anything close.

We are talking about the perspective of someone living in the time of Solomon .. or the time of the fall of the walls of Jerico .. people who had a perspective nothing like that of YOU .. or the Author of Peter .. or the people living at the time of Peter.

We are talking about the Perspective of the Ancient Israelite's - the average person .. not with respect to Soddom and Gomorrah .. with respect to their belief in Gods other than YHWH .. and they all believed in Gods other than YHWH .. comprende vous ?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

GINOLJC, to all.
first thanks for the reply, second, well you answered your own question of 1 Peter 3:18-20. now the answer to those, (disobedient, human), listen, 1 Peter 4:4 "Wherein they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you:"1 Peter 4:5 "Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead."1 Peter 4:6 "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

now what about the angels who was disobedient? as you said, but without any acess, not limited, but no access at all to the suface of thius world, Jude 1:6 "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." 2 Peter 2:4 "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" a chain, be it phyical or spiritual restrict access to anything, and that restrected access for these angels, as said, was in hell, alive men and women are not in hell.

so the angels that sinned was in chains under darkness. so they was not roming around on the surface of the earth. that puts an end to your fallen angel theory.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

1Peter 3:18- 20 contrasts spirits and souls they're not the same.
You're wrong concerning how you view 2Peter 2:4 the greek word your Bible translates hell is tartarus the greeks didn't use it as a place where humans go but a place where the titans went when Zeus and all those God's defeated them. Peter didn't believe in such a place nor did he believe that the titans nor the god's Zeus etc existed. Peter used the word as a condition because the greeks did believe this place was the darkest of all darkest places so Peter used it to explain that these Angels have been refused any light from the True God plus he has not ever allowing these Angels to take any form of flesh again because of what they did during Noah's day.

 

[DaChaser]

Ok ... just not "The Father" - El Elyon El Shaddai - God on High .. the top of the mountain .. Creator "The Father" and all the other epithets the God of Abraham was known by ... later assumed by YHWH .. a different Son of El . and now Jesus .. also a son of El ... our God . our Creator.

but yes .. they are all one .. as in all of the same family .. When you get through the pearly gates .. Sataniel is your butler .. and your travel advisor.. the advocate ... Your advocate .. and conscience .. a mother like no other .. in the hallowed halls.

There is but One God, and that One God is 3 Persons!

 

[DaChaser]

Exactly ....

Angel of the Lord was Yahweh the Sin coming to earth!

 

[Heyzeus]

There is but One God, and that One God is 3 Persons!

El - Asherah and Son YHWH .. I know.

 

[DaChaser]

El - Asherah and Son YHWH .. I know.

No, more like Yahweh, Yahweh, and Yahweh!

 

[Heyzeus]

No, more like Yahweh, Yahweh, and Yahweh!

Not like that .. it is YHWH - Holy Spirit - Son - Jesus

Previously it was Father - El - Consort Asherah - and Son - YHWH

So now YHWH is in the position of El - the Son has assumed the position of the Father .. Just like Jesus - the son - eventually assumes the position of his Father. It is how families work mate :)

The difference between the old Trinity and the new one .. is that they took out the woman - which was a mistake .. and God hated that.

 

[101G]

1Peter 3:18- 20 contrasts spirits and souls they're not the same.
You're wrong concerning how you view 2Peter 2:4 the greek word your Bible translates hell is tartarus the greeks didn't use it as a place where humans go but a place where the titans went when Zeus and all those God's defeated them. Peter didn't believe in such a place nor did he believe that the titans nor the god's Zeus etc existed. Peter used the word as a condition because the greeks did believe this place was the darkest of all darkest places so Peter used it to explain that these Angels have been refused any light from the True God plus he has not ever allowing these Angels to take any form of flesh again because of what they did during Noah's day.

Nope. "he has not ever allowing these Angels to take any form of flesh again because of what they did during Noah's day". another error on your part, angel don't have human flesh, never did. just as the devil, who lost his place, not in heaven but his "authority", as the other sinning angels. as in Jude where it say the left their first estate, that's not talking about, heaven, no, for many angels was assigned right here on planet earth. you might want to invest in an old English dictionary so that you can understand these old English words. as said with the devil, for temptation of man with evil. (remember the devil is EVIL, and not SIN, but he can cause one to Sin). so his authority was removed, or lost. so again your belif are in error, and lastly angels don't marry. scripture, Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."


and one other thing, get that nonesense of the titans, and Zeus and all those God's, get that mythology out of your head.

but thanks for the reply.


Another successful sabotage operation.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Nope. "he has not ever allowing these Angels to take any form of flesh again because of what they did during Noah's day". another error on your part, angel don't have human flesh, never did. just as the devil, who lost his place, not in heaven but his "authority", as the other sinning angels. as in Jude where it say the left their first estate, that's not talking about, heaven, no, for many angels was assigned right here on planet earth. you might want to invest in an old English dictionary so that you can understand these old English words. as said with the devil, for temptation of man with evil. (remember the devil is EVIL, and not SIN, but he can cause one to Sin). so his authority was removed, or lost. so again your belif are in error, and lastly angels don't marry. scripture, Matthew 22:30 "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven."


and one other thing, get that nonesense of the titans, and Zeus and all those God's, get that mythology out of your head.

but thanks for the reply.


Another successful sabotage operation.

PICJAG
101G The "Spiritual Saboteur"

I didn't say these Angels had human flesh. I also didn't make an error because you lack faith in the truth, that's just you lacking faith in the ttuth. What I'm saying is that the word Spirit and soul, not the same words they don't mean the same thing they're contrasted with each other at 1Peter 3:18-20. Out of that destruction during Noah's day only 8 humans were saved. The spirits in prison that Jesus went preaching to after his resurrection were not disembodied souls but were the Angels that materialized fleshly bodies and mated with human women.