John Darby

[Naomi25]

Call it "underwhelming evidence".

Just calling it as I see it. Feel free to provide biblical facts to the contrary...if you can.

The FACT -- the biblical FACT -- that the Marriage of the Lamb (where the Bride of Christ is present in Heaven) precedes the Second Coming of Christ totally demolishes your position.

Now...it's interesting to me that you label this a FACT. Fact: you say, that the Bride of Christ is present in heaven preceding the second coming of Christ. Fact: this must be the Marriage of the Lamb.
The problem is, its not FACT, it's supposition. And I'll tell you why. There is no biblical verse that teaches it outright. That makes proving it as a "fact" interesting. That means falling upon corroborating verses to build an understanding; which is fine, we do that with plenty of biblically solid teachings. But this? Let's just walk through it for a minute. You say that the bible teaches that at an "any moment" instant, Christ will snatch away his "Bride", for seven years in heaven...the Marriage supper of the Lamb. While things on earth are bad. God pours his judgement out on the earth and it's inhabitants, right?
You also say that during this time many people, and many Jews, will come to faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour. This is where your doctrine gets dicey. Because...who is the Bride? You obviously say it is the Church up until the point of Rapture. But that is unspecified by scripture, and I challenge you to prove otherwise. The bible says in 2 Cor 11 that we, as Christians are 'betrothed to Christ'. 1 Corinthians 12:12 says - "For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ."
You may want to make a distinction between those saved before the "Tribulation" and those after, but the bible does not.
So I ask you...how do you biblically justify those Christians being left out of the Marriage of the Lamb? How do you biblically justify some Christians not being subjected to God's wrath, but others having to endure it? Ultimately, what you are teaching is a form of classism. The Christians who go in the Rapture are a higher class of Christians that the ones who come later.
And friend, there is no way to support that from scripture. I absolutely challenge you to try.

Unless Christ first comes in the air for the Church at the Resurrection/Rapture, He cannot come with the saints to earth at His Second Coming. Technically that is the return of Christ to earth.

You know...I never understood this attempt at a defense from the Pre-trib crowd, I'm sorry. We know that those 'asleep in Christ'...all our loved ones, and all the biblical heroes of the past, are in heaven with Christ now. We're also told in scripture that they will receive their resurrection bodies before those who are 'left and alive' at the time of Christ's return.
So....why is it so hard to imagine a great horde of Christians at Christ's back while those on earth witness it?
Also, the whole "the first time he only comes to the clouds, the second time he touches the earth" is just semantics and fancy foot work. I mean..really? Unless he teleports, which Acts 1 says not, then of course he comes through the clouds on his way to earth.
Needless to say, I don't find these arguments at all persuasive, and...sorry...not biblically backed up. They're nit-picked in order to support a pre-held desire.

But it is NOT at the end of age, since there are many events between the Second Coming of Christ and the New Heavens and the New Earth.

I am so glad you bought up the 'end of the age'. Because it's such an important issue in the conversation of Christ's return.

Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. -Matthew 13:40–43

So, what can we agree upon happening here? Clearly, the 'end of the age' sees the gathering and judgement of the wicked. Right? But we also see that the wicked are gathered out of 'the Kingdom of the Son of Man' and that it is at this time that the righteous shall 'shine like the sun' in the Kingdom of their Father. Indeed, in the parable, the good and bad seed are 'harvested together' at the end. Hmm. Interesting, no?


As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” -Matthew 24:3

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. -Matthew 24:29–31

In the Olivet Discourse Christ answers the Disciples direct answer about his coming and the end of the age, and his reply is that it will be AFTER the tribulation. He describes his return and the Rapture at this time quite clearly.

In fact, when we do an in-depth study of "this age" and "the age to come", and take care to track the events spoken of in regards to these ages and Christ's return, it becomes clear that not only can the Pre-trib Rapture not be found in scripture, but an earthly millennium cannot either. Again, I'm happy to go into how I see this, but I suppose one conversation at a time.

 

[Taken]

My point is just read the 19th chapter and notice the marriage of the lamb before His return. Post tribbers teach they get caught up and immediately return, skipping the wedding. They teach a Divine "shotgun wedding"....LOL

Ok. It sounded confusing how you were laying it out.

Revelations is a long Study that deals with every person and angel's.
There is a marriage.
There is a marriage supper.
Many are offered to be participants in the marriage, but refuse the Offer of marriage.
Some are Offered to come to the marriage supper, but refuse.

Matt 22: 1-14
Luke 14: 15-24

Give narratives of the king who has Prepared a marriage for his son, and the preparations (supper) made ready, and many invited who made excuses to not attend, and others who were invited in their stead.
And a few NOT invited who showed up.

At the wedding...the bride and groom do Not See each other during the ceremony.
(Vail of the Bride).
Guests Observe the ceremony, as Witnesses.
After ceremony, Bride and Groom, see each other as they are.
Wedding Supper begins.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Truther]

Except....they don't.
And if you disagree with my break-down of 1 Thess 4 and how it links the Rapture, resurrection, Christ's return, judgement of the wicked and renewal of the cosmos all together, then perhaps you could attempt to show it, rather than just stating it. Because anyone can state anything...but that proves nothing and does nothing for an earnest conversation regarding the topic.
I'm also very happy to go into greater depth of how I see all these events happening at one time, if you'd care for it. I believe the overwhelming evidence points to a single return of Christ at the end of the age.

I can prove to you in your Bible that Paul in 1 Thes 4 was actually quoting Jesus in Matt 24.

Do you really want to see it?

It will blow your mind.

 

[Truther]

Ok. It sounded confusing how you were laying it out.

Revelations is a long Study that deals with every person and angel's.
There is a marriage.
There is a marriage supper.
Many are offered to be participants in the marriage, but refuse the Offer of marriage.
Some are Offered to come to the marriage supper, but refuse.

Matt 22: 1-14
Luke 14: 15-24

Give narratives of the king who has Prepared a marriage for his son, and the preparations (supper) made ready, and many invited who made excuses to not attend, and others who were invited in their stead.
And a few NOT invited who showed up.

At the wedding...the bride and groom do Not See each other during the ceremony.
(Vail of the Bride).
Guests Observe the ceremony, as Witnesses.
After ceremony, Bride and Groom, see each other as they are.
Wedding Supper begins.

Glory to God,
Taken

The supper is depicted in Rev 19.

Why didn't you explain from it?

Shall I....


6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


After the supper is the 2nd coming...



11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear. -Matthew 13:40–43

always love your post. But I have questions. One concerning the above ‘they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace‘

1 Peter 4:12 Lexicon: Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;


at the fiery ordeal πυρώσει (purōsei)

4451: a burning, hence a refining

Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Job 30:16-22 And now my soul is poured out upon me; the days of affliction have taken hold upon me. [17] My bones are pierced in me in the night season: and my sinews take no rest. [18] By the great force of my disease is my garment changed: it bindeth me about as the collar of my coat. [19] He hath cast me into the mire, and I am become like dust and ashes. [20] I cry unto thee, and thou dost not hear me: I stand up, and thou regardest me not. [21] Thou art become cruel to me: with thy strong hand thou opposest thyself against me. [22] Thou liftest me up to the wind; thou causest me to ride upon it, and dissolvest my substance.

And You dissolve me in a storm.
(u·te·mo·ge·ge·ni) 4127: to melt a prim. root
8663:noise from the same as sho

a burning, hence a refining.

will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace...what fiery furnace?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

@Naomi25 the other question is concerning ‘raptured’ before tribulation or after. Tried to find the post where you quoted 1 Thessalonians 5:4-7 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. [7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

‘Children of the light’ ‘children of the day’ the rapture seems to be waiting for the day to come upon ‘children of the light’, waiting for the day to come upon ‘children of the day’...how can children be of the day and be of the Light, If the Light and Day hasn’t come upon them? Luke 11:20-22 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. [21] When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: [22] But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

 

[Taken]

The supper is depicted in Rev 19.

Why didn't you explain from it?

Shall I....


6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.


After the supper is the 2nd coming...



11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.

17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

I didn't need an explanation nor thought you did either. I was simply giving a reference...
The king looking, inviting, more...that is what will occur during the Trib.

Lord in the air with His Church... God sends Servants to Earth....
Hey ya'll my sons getting married, A big feast is prepared, ya'll wanna come???
Huh, what??? You don't? Well how you guys?
How about you people? Many will have Excuses.... some will accept the invitation.

Glory to God,
Takek

 

[Truther]

I didn't need an explanation nor thought you did either. I was simply giving a reference...
The king looking, inviting, more...that is what will occur during the Trib.

Lord in the air with His Church... God sends Servants to Earth....
Hey ya'll my sons getting married, A big feast is prepared, ya'll wanna come???
Huh, what??? You don't? Well how you guys?
How about you people? Many will have Excuses.... some will accept the invitation.

Glory to God,
Takek

 

[Naomi25]

I can prove to you in your Bible that Paul in 1 Thes 4 was actually quoting Jesus in Matt 24.

Do you really want to see it?

It will blow your mind.

I have no doubt that they are linked. That's sort of my own point. That all the passages speaking of Christ's return are linked. And they're linked BECAUSE they are the one and same return....not two.
But, if you want to present your case, go ahead....I'm prepared to have my mind blown. Or, at least, I'm open to the possibility.

 

[Naomi25]

always love your post. But I have questions. One concerning the above ‘they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace‘

1 Peter 4:12 Lexicon: Beloved, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal among you, which comes upon you for your testing, as though some strange thing were happening to you;


at the fiery ordeal πυρώσει (purōsei)

4451: a burning, hence a refining

Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Job 30:16-22 And now my soul is poured out upon me; the days of affliction have taken hold upon me. [17] My bones are pierced in me in the night season: and my sinews take no rest. [18] By the great force of my disease is my garment changed: it bindeth me about as the collar of my coat. [19] He hath cast me into the mire, and I am become like dust and ashes. [20] I cry unto thee, and thou dost not hear me: I stand up, and thou regardest me not. [21] Thou art become cruel to me: with thy strong hand thou opposest thyself against me. [22] Thou liftest me up to the wind; thou causest me to ride upon it, and dissolvest my substance.

And You dissolve me in a storm.
(u·te·mo·ge·ge·ni) 4127: to melt a prim. root
8663:noise from the same as sho

a burning, hence a refining.

will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace...what fiery furnace?

Usually I have a rule about heading initially into Revelation to 'prove a point', as Revelation is an apocalyptic book. It's best to 'back up' our doctrines, rather than prove them. However, I think in this case, starting with a quote from it is appropriate. You ask "what fiery furnace?" Well, this one:

Judgment Before the Great White Throne
Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. -Revelation 20:11–15

This passage makes it clear, but Jesus speaks of it often and clearly throughout the NT as well. Sometimes he calls it "the outer darkness" and says that there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth" there.

I think that when we come to verses that tell us, as Christians, that our works or lives will be 'tested' by fiery ordeals, we shouldn't read them in terms of 'judgement', which is what, ultimately, the "fiery furnace" is...Revelation tells us it's the second death, which is judgement, eternal punishment away from God.
Christians do not suffer that, instead we must expect to follow our Lord in life and face many trials and tribulations. These come from sin; maybe our own, maybe from other's sin, maybe just from the sin of a fallen world. But if our faith is pure and strong, the fire will burn off the dross and reveal something stronger and more beautiful.

Hope that makes sense. I'd love to go into it a little deeper, and can later if you'd like me to, but right now, I've got to dash!

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 the other question is concerning ‘raptured’ before tribulation or after. Tried to find the post where you quoted 1 Thessalonians 5:4-7 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. [5] Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. [6] Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. [7] For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

‘Children of the light’ ‘children of the day’ the rapture seems to be waiting for the day to come upon ‘children of the light’, waiting for the day to come upon ‘children of the day’...how can children be of the day and be of the Light, If the Light and Day hasn’t come upon them? Luke 11:20-22 But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. [21] When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace: [22] But when a stronger than he shall come upon him, and overcome him, he taketh from him all his armour wherein he trusted, and divideth his spoils.

For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. -1 Thessalonians 5:2–5

Okay, so, this is how I see it. He's using a fairly simple metaphor. Thieves come when we do not expect them, when we asleep and usually under the cover of darkness. Paul is saying that for people who embrace sin and deny Christ, they live in a world of darkness. They are not aware, nor care, of Christ's impending return, and so when it comes, it, and destruction, will come upon them suddenly.
However, for Christians, we know our master will return at any moment! We are like the house owners who expect the thieves, who stay awake and keep watch. We shall not be surprised. We do not dwell in darkness. We shall be ready.
We see the parallel of this parable in Matt 24. Here Jesus again describes his coming 'like a thief', warning his followers to stay awake.
So, we know that to be a follower of Christ means we dwell in the light of his truth. It means we ought to be ever mindful of his return. And if we are, his return will never catch us off guard like those who dwell in darkness.

But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what part of the night the thief was coming, he would have stayed awake and would not have let his house be broken into. -Matthew 24:43

 

[Truther]

I have no doubt that they are linked. That's sort of my own point. That all the passages speaking of Christ's return are linked. And they're linked BECAUSE they are the one and same return....not two.
But, if you want to present your case, go ahead....I'm prepared to have my mind blown. Or, at least, I'm open to the possibility.

Okay...LOL



Paul quotes what Jesus already spoke of prior(notice "WE SAY" as in the Apostles say, not just Paul)

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.(common knowledge)


The catching away parallel...

Jesus...

Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Paul...

1 Thes. 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


The thief parallel.....

Jesus...

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

Paul...

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.




The drunken servant parallel....

Jesus...
46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Paul...

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.


Notice the SEQUENTIAL parallels of the 2 passages.

Accidental or coincidence?

I dont think so.

 

[Taken]

I have no doubt that they are linked. That's sort of my own point. That all the passages speaking of Christ's return are linked. And they're linked BECAUSE they are the one and same return....not two.
But, if you want to present your case, go ahead....I'm prepared to have my mind blown. Or, at least, I'm open to the possibility.

WHO said anything about Two Returns?

 

[Keraz]

WHO said anything about Two Returns?

But there are two Days of the Lord.
The first is the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, a day of punishment of the nations. Habakkuk 3:12, Revelation 6:12-17, +
The next is the great Day of Almighty God, that will come after all the prophesies from the Sixth Seal until the 7th Bowl, have taken place. Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:11

As for a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, that false belief is total error and contradicts Jesus, John 3:13

 

[Taken]

But there are two Days of the Lord.
The first is the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, a day of punishment of the nations. Habakkuk 3:12, Revelation 6:12-17, +
The next is the great Day of Almighty God, that will come after all the prophesies from the Sixth Seal until the 7th Bowl, have taken place. Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:11.

Are you preaching Two Returns of Jesus?

As for a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, that false belief is total error and contradicts Jesus, John 3:13

Who is preaching a Rapture of the Church to Heaven?

 

[Taken]

Christ's return

Why are you saying;
...that Christ will "return" to Earth?

It is the Lord "himself", that descends from Heaven TO the Clouds, and calls Up to Him,
Men "IN" Christ.

1 Thes 4:
[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

It is men IN Christ, who are caught up to the Clouds To Meet The Lord in the air.

1 Thes 4:
[17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It is The "Son of man", who Came to Earth.

Matt 18:
[11] For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

Matt 16:
[27] For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
[28] Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Matt 20
[28] Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Matt 24:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of manin heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Matt 24:
[39] And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of manbe.
[44] Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

* The Church IS NOT the Son of man's Church.
* The Son of man Does NOT descend From Heaven and Catch Up Christ's Church UP to Him, in the Clouds.
* Christ Did Not Come to Earth....
* The Son of man Came to Earth.
* The Son of man Left Earth and Returned to Heaven.
* The Son of man Shall descend from Heaven and Return to Earth.
* Earthly men CAN SEE the Son of man.
* Earthly men CAN NOT "SEE" Christ.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[VictoryinJesus]

However, for Christians, we know our master will return at any moment! We are like the house owners who expect the thieves, who stay awake and keep watch.

How many fiery furnaces are there? Get confused as ‘comes as a thief’ and ‘we are house owners who expect the thieves’ so we stay awake and keep watch for ‘comes as a thief’ ...what exactly are we watching for then? Thieves or a thief? He said ‘I have chosen these out of the furnace of affliction’ not the same fiery furnace then? Jude 1:22-23 And of some have compassion, making a difference: [23] And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

‘it shall be at an instant suddenly’
Isaiah 29:5-6 Moreover the multitude of thy strangers shall be like small dust, and the multitude of the terrible ones shall be as chaff that passeth away: yea, it shall be at an instant suddenly. [6] Thou shalt be visited of the Lord of hosts with thunder, and with earthquake, and great noise, with storm and tempest, and the flame of devouring fire.

it is the ‘dissolve’ ...to burn, noise, tempest with a storm ...Fiery trial yet are you saying the furnace of fire they are thrown into and Then His brightness shines forth, becomes literal flames in the end burning? Help me understand what burns up the chaff or whom He destroys(dissolves) with the brightness of His coming. How today we speak of storms and tempest and noise and a roaring ...where He speaks ‘Peace be still‘ becomes something else?

 

[Truther]

But there are two Days of the Lord.
The first is the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, a day of punishment of the nations. Habakkuk 3:12, Revelation 6:12-17, +
The next is the great Day of Almighty God, that will come after all the prophesies from the Sixth Seal until the 7th Bowl, have taken place. Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:11

As for a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church, that false belief is total error and contradicts Jesus, John 3:13

1 Thes 4 and Matt 24-25 beg to differ.

 

[GISMYS_7]

1 Thes 4 and Matt 24-25 beg to differ.

Believe the word of God or be left behind!!! Your choice!!
Why not just believe God's Word on the catching up (rapture)??

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain """shall be caught up together""" with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words1 Corinthians 15:51- 57
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Keraz]

1 Thes 4 and Matt 24-25 beg to differ.

Neither of those quotes, or anywhere else in the Bible; say the Lord will take His people to heaven.
That idea is wrong and will never happen. After the Millennium, God and therefore heaven, will come to dwell with mankind on earth. Revelation 21:1-7

Are you preaching Two Returns of Jesus?

No. Jesus Returns in glory, seen by all; just once.

But He will send His fiery wrath upon the earth at the Sixth Seal event. Psalms 11:4-6, Habakkuk 3:4, Amos 1 & 2:1-5