John Darby

[GISMYS_7]

Think!!! How will believers return with Jesus unless we have already been caught up (raptured)

 

[n2thelight]

No, Truther is right. Israel will, as a nation, get saved. Some people think nations don't change...ever. But they do. Some nations are bad and then repent. And some nations that have been Christian backslide. These things are facts of history.

Can entire nations turn to Christianity? Yes. It's happened. Why can't Israel experience a national revival while other nations don't? I don't think it will mean automatic spirituality across the nations just because Jesus comes back. There will be peace settling upon the world, but it doesn't mean nations automatically become spiritual.

But Israel will become spiritual at Jesus' return. And I think there will be a good many other nations to acquire spirituality at that time, as well.

It won't happen at His return ,again one must believe before that return.What you are saying is that ALL can do what they want,and believe when He returns ,dont work that way.You must believe NOW!!!

 

[Taken]

Rather, at the end of the trib when they see him physically.

To clarify:

Randy Kluth Post 177

But Israel will become Spiritual AT Jesus' return

Israel will become Spiritual / rather Saved During the Trib.
Jesus Does NOT Return During the Trib.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[n2thelight]

Think!!! How will believers return with Jesus unless we have already been caught up (raptured)

Bang ,that's the question ,now scripture will give you the answer.

I Thessalonians 4:13 "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope."

What's the subject? Did it say those who were raptured?

I Thessalonians 4:14 "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him."

Sleep is the key word,it means those who have died in Christ not raptured

If we believe, as a Christian, that Christ set the example for us; so that we will follow as He did, in dying, and rising again, then "to sleep" is to be dead from the flesh body. The Greek is a simple language, for it's structure allows one to be more precise. The subject in the frame of this verse is; "that ye not be ignorant as to where the dead are." If you're a Christian, you know and believe that Jesus Christ died, was buried, and on the third day arose and came out of the tomb. If you do not believe this, Paul classifies you as ignorant, and heathen [non-believer].

It was on the fortieth day that he ascended back to the Father. When Jesus ascended into heaven, all the souls went with him into heaven also, that had passed on, up to that point in time. The souls of some went to wait for that time of judgment, while others to the glory of God. Those that sleep [are dead] are not out there in a hole in the ground, but all Christians must believe that they arose to be with the Father, just like Christ did also. The dead are with God; all of them. "To be absent from the body [flesh body] is to be present with the Lord." Ecclesiastes 12:7.

Regardless what chapter nine of Ecclesiastes says concerning the flesh body; when this flesh body is dead, the soul is gone from it, and the flesh is left to rot. It is difficult to see how they made a "rapture theory" out of this, when the subject is, "where are the dead?" So we see that when one dies, his soul goes immediately to be with our Heavenly Father. If you believe this, you are not heathen.

Now let scripture give you a 2nd witness

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

Here's that word sleep again.It means the same thing from Thess from my above.

Paul is now going to show us a mystery that deals with our generation, for a mystery is something that cannot be understood. However, when the details and clues of the mystery are know, then it is no longer a mystery. This mystery deals with a time when something is going to happen all over the earth to all flesh bodies, when these flesh bodies are not die anymore. Why will this be? Because all people living in their flesh bodies will be changed instantly from their flesh bodies, into their new incorruptible bodies. We have already established that each of us have two bodies, one is of the flesh, and the other body is a spiritual body that is within our flesh body. The spiritual body is not made alive or freed from the flesh body until the flesh body is done away with.

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

The time that it will take to change all the physical or natural bodies on this earth into their spiritual bodies will be faster than you can wink your eye. It is instant. Paul is telling us that this change will come "at the last trump", and that is when there are no more trumps. He identifies that trumpet as the seventh trumpet, and we know that this is the very moment when Jesus Christ comes back to earth to establish His Millennium kingdom, right here on earth. We are talking about God's trumpets here and on the sixth trumpet Satan comes to earth to deceive the whole world.

If you are waiting for a rapture, then you are going to be raptured by someone other than Jesus Christ for He is coming to earth to set up His kingdom here. The seventh trump is the exact time when the change takes place, and at no other place.

Remember the "dead" are the "spiritually dead" in Christ. "Raised" again means to "become awakened", to become active from another existence. The soul will shed its flesh and blood body to take on the new spiritual body, which is the incorruptible body. You may be spiritually dead, but you will also take on your new incorruptible body, which you will live in for the Millennium age kingdom of Christ.

Everyone is going to enter into the only dimension whereby any soul can be judged. This change from the flesh body into your new spiritual or incorruptible has nothing to do with the condition of your soul. If you were lost before, you still will be lost, and if you have received Jesus Christ and are under His shed blood, you will be in that same spiritual condition. What is happening is at the sounding of the seventh which is the last trumpet all flesh will be done away with, and all souls will now exist in their spiritual bodies.

Can you show me a rapture in any of those verses?

If you die in Christ before His return,you come back with Him,because at death all return to the Father

If you are alive at His return ,you are changed to meet Him as all those returning with Him are!!!

 

[Randy Kluth]

It won't happen at His return ,again one must believe before that return.What you are saying is that ALL can do what they want,and believe when He returns ,dont work that way.You must believe NOW!!!

I don't think you recognize the process. Who picks the time when the Roman Empire converts to Christianity? Who picks the time when England, France, Germany, or Scandinavia becomes Christian? Who picks the time when the E. European countries become Christian, or when formerly Christian nations turn back or are conquered by something else?

Who picks the time when Martin Luther began the Protestant Reformation? Who began the various revivals and awakenings that have happened in history?

Obviously, God works with each nation separately, and sometimes together. Each nation has its own destiny. But as God wraps up the process of judging the whole world, God will have prepared for a new destiny for the nations.

Think about it. Israel had her shot at being a godly nation, but went spiritually bankrupt again and again until the wicked had virtually taken over the entire country. The nation was cast off until final judgment could be prepared for and a new generation introduced.

While Israel was in her period of NT punishment, other nations got their shot at being godly nations, but ended up in the same place as Israel--taken over by the wicked, with very little room for the righteous.

And like Israel, God has been preparing for judgment of the world, and introducing a new generation to begin the process anew when the Kingdom of Christ comes. Israel was merely the 1st of many nations to become "Abrahamic nations," ie nations promised to Abraham, to be godly nations.

Throughout the NT era nations have become Christian, beginning in the time of the Roman Empire. But God knew that all of these nations would be taken over by the wicked in time, with only small remnants of true believers remaining. When Christ comes back he will judge all of those nations, and in fact, the whole world. But a new generation will have been prepared for to assume control in an age of peace.

 

[Truther]

Think!!! How will believers return with Jesus unless we have already been caught up (raptured)

Also, the marriage supper of the lamb PRECEDES the return of Christ(2nd coming), in Rev 19.

Those that miss the party will not be returning to reign with Him.

 

[Truther]

To clarify:



Israel will become Spiritual / rather Saved During the Trib.
Jesus Does NOT Return During the Trib.

Glory to God,
Taken

Rather, He returns to conclude the trib and then save Israel per Zech 14:1-9

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25 1 Cor. 11.26 and 1 Thess. 4.13-18 as well... :)

1 Cor 11:26 certainly mentions the certainty of Christ's return, but not the timing or circumstances, so I'm not sure it can weigh in on the particular conversation.

1 Thess 4 gets us into some meat! In fact the whole passage of 1 thess 4-5 does. It brings us the Resurrection, the Rapture, the Day of the Lord, Christ's return, his coming being like a "thief in the night", judgement, and the idea of "that day".

[13] But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. [14] For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. [15] For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. [16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command (Christ's return), with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first (Resurrection). [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (Rapture), and so we will always be with the Lord. [18] Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:13–18

[1] Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. [2] For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night (Day of the Lord, 'Like a thief'). [3] While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them (judgment) as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. [4] But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. [5] For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. [6] So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. [7] For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. [8] But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. [9] For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, -1 Thessalonians 5:1–9

This passage is clearly talking about the Rapture of the Church, but it also talks of the resurrection of the dead and the judgement of the wicked. More, when we look at the phrase "The Day of the Lord will come like a thief", we can link this event to the one Peter speaks of in 2 Peter 2:10, which tells us that when Christ returns on this day, the earth, heavens and elements will pass away with a roar. The new will come.
The Thess passage also informs us that we shall NOT be caught unawares like a thief. This means that the judgement, and dissolving of the elements will not catch the children of God off guard. That is talking about the last day, not a "Pre-trib" Rapture, where there must follow another seven years.
There are many, many more ways to link all the verses and 'comings' of Christ together, but for sake of brevity I'll leave it there. Suffice to say, 1 Thess 4 does not support a Pre-trib Rapture...not at all.

 

[Naomi25]

Think!!! How will believers return with Jesus unless we have already been caught up (raptured)

Ah...where do you think all the "Dead in Christ" are now? The souls who will receive their glorified bodies before you will be the believers at Christ's back. Plenty of them up there right now.

 

[Taken]

Rather, He returns to conclude the trib and then save Israel per Zech 14:1-9

The 7 SEALS first.
The 7 TRUMPS next.
The 7 Vials next.
Rev 16:17...7th vial poured out.
(Next couple of chapters describing things)
Rev 19:11...Jesus with power Returns..with angelic army....deal with fallen angels.
Jesus reigns 1,000 years.

 

[Truther]

1 Cor 11:26 certainly mentions the certainty of Christ's return, but not the timing or circumstances, so I'm not sure it can weigh in on the particular conversation.

1 Thess 4 gets us into some meat! In fact the whole passage of 1 thess 4-5 does. It brings us the Resurrection, the Rapture, the Day of the Lord, Christ's return, his coming being like a "thief in the night", judgement, and the idea of "that day".

[13] But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. [14] For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. [15] For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. [16] For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command (Christ's return), with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first (Resurrection). [17] Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (Rapture), and so we will always be with the Lord. [18] Therefore encourage one another with these words. -1 Thessalonians 4:13–18

[1] Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. [2] For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night (Day of the Lord, 'Like a thief'). [3] While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them (judgment) as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. [4] But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. [5] For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. [6] So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. [7] For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. [8] But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. [9] For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, -1 Thessalonians 5:1–9

This passage is clearly talking about the Rapture of the Church, but it also talks of the resurrection of the dead and the judgement of the wicked. More, when we look at the phrase "The Day of the Lord will come like a thief", we can link this event to the one Peter speaks of in 2 Peter 2:10, which tells us that when Christ returns on this day, the earth, heavens and elements will pass away with a roar. The new will come.
The Thess passage also informs us that we shall NOT be caught unawares like a thief. This means that the judgement, and dissolving of the elements will not catch the children of God off guard. That is talking about the last day, not a "Pre-trib" Rapture, where there must follow another seven years.
There are many, many more ways to link all the verses and 'comings' of Christ together, but for sake of brevity I'll leave it there. Suffice to say, 1 Thess 4 does not support a Pre-trib Rapture...not at all.

1 Thes 4 supports Matt 24, 25, which supports pre trib rapture.

 

[Truther]

The 7 SEALS first.
The 7 TRUMPS next.
The 7 Vials next.
Rev 16:17...7th vial poured out.
(Next couple of chapters describing things)
Rev 19:11...Jesus with power Returns..with angelic army....deal with fallen angels.
Jesus reigns 1,000 years.

I believe all of that(chronologically).

But post trib has some of the saints missing the marriage of the lamb.

That is not cool.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Think!!! How will believers return with Jesus unless we have already been caught up (raptured)

This is a reasonable question, and you may not agree with the answer. But I owe it to you to give an answer. My personal belief is that God's wish is to bring all of his saints, dead and alive, to Christ in the air, immediately prior to the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth. The purpose for this is not just to raise the dead, but also, to transform all of the saints into immortals, which the Scriptures call "glorification."

In my view, God wants us to be "glorified" with Jesus so that we can return with him when he establishes his Kingdom on earth. In that way we will be properly prepared to reign with him in his Kingdom.

In my view, all of this takes place in less than a second. So forget all of the planning, for a flight up or for a flight back. There will be no need for making plans, or determining how to arrange for this. It is essentially *immediate.* The Rapture will be so quick that it will be as if we had never left--only we will now have immortal bodies, and be able to reign in a spiritual body--much as Christ is already doing right now.

Though Christ is already on his throne in heaven, he has not yet established his reign on the earth. And so, when he returns, we will return with him, and will establish a spiritual reign over the earth, bringing about Christian nations that are less susceptible to falling.

 

[Truther]

This is a reasonable question, and you may not agree with the answer. But I owe it to you to give an answer. My personal belief is that God's wish is to bring all of his saints, dead and alive, to Christ in the air, immediately prior to the establishment of God's Kingdom on earth. The purpose for this is not just to raise the dead, but also, to transform all of the saints into immortals, which the Scriptures call "glorification."

In my view, God wants us to be "glorified" with Jesus so that we can return with him when he establishes his Kingdom on earth. In that way we will be properly prepared to reign with him in his Kingdom.

In my view, all of this takes place in less than a second. So forget all of the planning, for a flight up or for a flight back. There will be no need for making plans, or determining how to arrange for this. It is essentially *immediate.* The Rapture will be so quick that it will be as if we had never left--only we will now have immortal bodies, and be able to reign in a spiritual body--much as Christ is already doing right now.

Though Christ is already on his throne in heaven, he has not yet established his reign on the earth. And so, when he returns, we will return with him, and will establish a spiritual reign over the earth, bringing about Christian nations that are less susceptible to falling.

FYI..the rapture is divided into 2 parts.

 

[Davy]

The 7 SEALS first.
The 7 TRUMPS next.
The 7 Vials next.
Rev 16:17...7th vial poured out.
(Next couple of chapters describing things)
Rev 19:11...Jesus with power Returns..with angelic army....deal with fallen angels.
Jesus reigns 1,000 years.

1. 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, 7 Vials, mostly in parallel.
2. 7th Trumpet, 7th Vial, 6th Seal -- time of Christ's return and His cup of wrath, the "day of the Lord".
3. Last 3 Trumpets - Woes in order, 5th just prior to the start of the tribulation; 6th is the tribulation; 7th is Jesus' coming.

 

[Taken]

I believe all of that(chronologically).

But post trib has some of the saints missing the marriage of the lamb.

That is not cool.

The thing is Many are invited, but not all accept the invitation.

1. 7 Seals, 7 Trumpets, 7 Vials, mostly in parallel.
2. 7th Trumpet, 7th Vial, 6th Seal -- time of Christ's return and His cup of wrath, the "day of the Lord".
3. Last 3 Trumpets - Woes in order, 5th just prior to the start of the tribulation; 6th is the tribulation; 7th is Jesus' coming.

Sounds as if you Willy Nilly have rearranged the Order. Not buying that perception.

 

[Truther]

The thing is Many are invited, but not all accept the invitation.


Sounds as if you Willy Nilly have rearranged the Order. Not buying that perception.

My point is just read the 19th chapter and notice the marriage of the lamb before His return. Post tribbers teach they get caught up and immediately return, skipping the wedding. They teach a Divine "shotgun wedding"....LOL

 

[Timtofly]

Matthew 24:3 "And as He sat upon the mount of Olives the disciples came unto Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when shall these things be and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

Matthew 24:29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not have her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

This is saying that immediately after that tribulation of Satan, which is the Antichrist deception, Christ will be coming back to earth, and marks the second advent. There are two tribulations, and you had better know the difference.

Matthew 24:30 "And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

This is after the tribulation of the deception, after the Antichrist ruled and claimed himself to be God, and after all the events of the first six seals are over; Then Jesus Christ, the Son of man will come to earth in the clouds of heaven, which are all those souls that have lived, died and gone to be with the Lord. Then the true Christ, the true Messiah, who is the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world, will come and claim His own, and not one moment before.

What part of after the tribulation are you not understanding?

There has been nonstop tribulation. But your verse does not say after Satan's Reign. Satan has been revealed. Christ could return at any minute.

 

[Naomi25]

1 Thes 4 supports Matt 24, 25, which supports pre trib rapture.

Except....they don't.
And if you disagree with my break-down of 1 Thess 4 and how it links the Rapture, resurrection, Christ's return, judgement of the wicked and renewal of the cosmos all together, then perhaps you could attempt to show it, rather than just stating it. Because anyone can state anything...but that proves nothing and does nothing for an earnest conversation regarding the topic.
I'm also very happy to go into greater depth of how I see all these events happening at one time, if you'd care for it. I believe the overwhelming evidence points to a single return of Christ at the end of the age.

 

[Enoch111]

I believe the overwhelming evidence points to a single return of Christ at the end of the age.

Call it "underwhelming evidence".

The FACT -- the biblical FACT -- that the Marriage of the Lamb (where the Bride of Christ is present in Heaven) precedes the Second Coming of Christ totally demolishes your position.

Unless Christ first comes in the air for the Church at the Resurrection/Rapture, He cannot come with the saints to earth at His Second Coming. Technically that is the return of Christ to earth. But it is NOT at the end of age, since there are many events between the Second Coming of Christ and the New Heavens and the New Earth.