John Darby
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Do you understand the (IF's)in the Word?
Now let's do the promises you speak of.
Genesis 35:11 "And God said unto him, "I am God Almighty: be fruitful and multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee, and kings shall come out of thy loins;"
Who are these nations,plural ?
When we study Genesis 48 we will see that each of his sons will become Patriarchs of their own tribes, which develop into nations and groupings of nations. This promise reaches far beyond what the church world today would have us believe; that the offspring of Jacob today is comprised in the tiny nation of Israel, with brother Judah, mixed with the Kenite population towering over them. Those who call themselves Jews, but are not, see Revelation 2:9, and 3:9, for the warning that Jesus told John to write to our end time generation.
The kings of England today are even crowned and anointed over the same pillar that Jacob anointed to God, to call an eternal remembrance to all those who sit on that throne, and the subjects that they rule over. [The people of republics are citizens, while people under a king or queen are subjects.] All royal thrones of the Christian nations are tied directly by blood to the throne of England, which is the direct linage to King David, Judah, Jacob, Isaac, and Abraham. It is no accident that the Queen of England is Elizabeth II, for her lineage dictates it.
God's word, and his house still exist today, and the mere fact that a King or Queen sits on the throne is the reminder to all His children that He does keep his word, even though we allow ourselves to get lazy in his word, and run to Kenites for its interpretation, His word is truth, honest and fixed. When it seems that God's word is wrong, it is the person questioning the word that is in error. That is why we must use the right tools in getting the correct meaning for that Word.
The first duty of any King or Queen is to be the protector of the Faith, and that faith is God's Word. That is why we have the King James Bible today. He made the order for this translation, whereby each subject to his throne could have their own copy within their homes, that their lives could be guided by its words. From the year 1611 A.D. it has continued to be the guidepost in most Christian homes, and governments.
If you don't believe in Christ,you are not of Israel ,PERIOD!!!!
Just like Gentiles can be grafted into Christ those to whom He made the promises to,can be grafted out of their own tree and on to satans
Two trees two choices,you belong to one of them
Two trees two choices,you belong to one of them
Here is what you think God lied to future national Israel about...
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
...as you think you are "Israel" and "Judah".
It is really not your fault you think that way though, because all Christianity with few exceptions teach this entire promise to future Israel and Judah is theirs in some "spiritual" way, negating the original promise to future national Israel.
Even those that say they don't think they teach replacement theology, steal this promise....yet they don't realize this is RT by default.
They then, to fix this mistake, they say prophecy has "DOUBLE MEANINGS'.(AKA...God speaks out of both sides of His mouth).
You absolutely do not believe in Jer 31....
31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
...in which God promised to fill every human in Israel from the least to the greatest with His Spirit upon His return. They will cease witnessing too. Every human will know the Lord per this promise.
We, the church, only get to partake in a teency part of this pre millennial experience pertaining to future national Israel per this segment found in Hebrews 10:15-17....
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
.....that's it. That's all we get included into of that wonderful promise to them.
It was always about God's promise to Abraham that He would save them all en mass some day.
We just hitched a ride along the way on THEIR future covenant fulfillment.
If one does not believe in Christ they will not be saved ,period.Let you tell it,whoever you think is Israel can do whatever the heck they want,NOT!!!!
Naomi25
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But can you hang the legitimacy of the Pre-trib Rapture on a single passage alone? Especially this passage?
In my Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. -John 14:2–3
It seems to me that this passage does not indicate timing, thus Pre-trib Rapture at all. What it teaches absolutely is that Christ is assuring us that he is preparing a place for those who belong to him, and that he will come again so we may be with him. Presumably 'in that place' he has prepared for us, although it only specifically says that we shall be 'where he is'. An argument can be made that 'the place' being prepared is the New Jerusalem, which we know 'comes down out of heaven'.
The point: John 14 doesn't say that Jesus is coming Pre-tribulation, or that he is taking his church 'back to heaven'. It only states that he is preparing a place for us, and that when he comes, we shall be gathered to him and be forever with him.
In other words...Pre-trib it does not teach. And, I'm sorry, but, as you know, I question whether you can find a single other verse that supports a Pre-trib Rapture anywhere else either. I am, of course, most pleased to discuss it with you.
Neither does it connect to any Tribulation. Indeed "Let not your heart be troubled" should suffice (for those who have ears to hear).
Bobby Jo
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... just so long as we're smart enough to JUDGE (1 Cor. 14) what ANYONE SAYS, to make sure they're in conformance with Scriptural Dictates, -- of which YOU'RE NOT! :)
To All,
When challenged, @Enoch111 is SILENT. Apparently he doesn't care about Scripture as much as he cares about a False church doctrine, so he keeps repeating the same lie over and over and over and over and, -- well, you get the idea.
Bobby Jo
Randy Kluth
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Everything you just said is false. Not a bit of it can be substantiated. Nothing Christ said, let alone in John 14.1-3, indicates a Pretribulation Rapture. It would have to be "read into" the passage. Nobody ever understood from that passage a Pretribulation Rapture until someone like Darby came along, who wanted to believe that elite Christians could be exempt from trials at the end of the age. It was a conflation of God's promises to a few Christians in history who escaped trial with the entire Church at the end of the age who will be immune from eternal judgment.
John 14.“Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."
To be with Christ where he is in heaven is simply the doctrine of the Rapture. When he comes again he will first catch us up to himself to be glorified with him. None of this speaks of a pre-tribulation context. It was clearly portrayed as post-tribulation when Jesus said:
Matt 24.29 “Immediately after the distress of those days
“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
The kind of "crackpot" proof you offer should convince nobody. It's the equivalent of saying, "it plainly says in 1 Thes 4 that Jesus will come *before the Tribulation.* " And yet, in 1 Thes 4 there is not an ounce of evidence that when he comes for his Church it will be *before the Tribulation.*
On the contrary, in 2 Thes 2 Paul plainly explains that Christ will come on a day for his Church only after the revelation of Antichrist. And it will be for the specific purpose of destroying the Antichrist.
2 Thes 2.1 Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2 not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come. 3 Don’t let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction... 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming.
The reality is, Christ is coming to prepare the world for the rule of the Church together with himself. He will not glorify the Church until the time set by the Father to bring the whole world into conformity with his Kingdom. The Church must wait for that day.
The passage in Jer 31 will be fulfilled at the return of Jesus Christ. They will all believe because they will see His appearing. Then Jesus will fill all the nation of Israel with His Spirit. That will save them.
GISMYS_7
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Understand and believe God's word!!====
Jesus says==Luke 21:36 36Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man."
1 Thess 5:9: For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ
Bobby Jo
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I think you need more practice on "Understand" to more accurately "believe" ...
Bobby Jo
Davy
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It is ignorance to rely on just those two verses for understanding, because it would mean discarding the rest of God's Word into the garbage can.
Davy
Well-Known Member
That attempt at Revisionist history has been debunked.
Dave MacPherson's work...
"Evidence abounds that all of dispensationalism's crucial aspects (including the pretrib rapture) were taught by some of John Darby's (less than orthodox) contemporaries in the 1830s before Darby taught them. Since this explosive discovery there's been an unholy frenzy to find sources as early as possible in the Church Age which can be "shaded" enough to appear to be authentically pretrib in order to avoid the (well deserved) stigma that pretrib is a "recent theory."
In the 1990s Canadian prophecy teacher Grant Jeffrey claimed to have found clear pretrib teaching in a 4th century Christian writer known as Pseudo-Ephraem (which I'll abbreviate as P-E).
If anyone wants to find out what P-E really taught, he or she can Google "Apocalypse of Pseudo-Ephraem (Wikipedia)" and click on "Rhoades Translation from a Latin text of Pseudo-Ephraem." This translation into English affected Grant Jeffrey, and his purposely muddied-up revisionism of P-E has captivated Thomas Ice and other pretrib merchandisers.
In Section 2 P-E wrote: "We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging." He revealed what was imminent in his next sentence which stated that "there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one [Antichrist]."
Nevertheless Jeffrey (constantly repeated by Ice) claimed that P-E taught "an imminent pretrib rapture"! (In the twinkling of an eye they fearlessly changed an imminent arrival of Antichrist into an imminent arrival of Christ!)
Right after this, in Section 2, P-E wrote: "For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord..." This phrase ("taken to the Lord") is trumpeted by Ice etc. as a clear reference to a pretrib rapture.
But Dr. Paul Alexander's book "The Byzantine Apocalyptic Tradition," which inspired Jeffrey to claim he had found evidence of pretrib before 1830, says that this phrase means "participate at least in some measure in beatitude." (Encyclopedias dealing with this aspect of Byzantine theology reveal that "beatitude" has to do with doing "acts of virtue" on earth - the opposite of being raptured off earth!)
Ice etc. even falsely claim that Dr. Alexander concluded that P-E was pretrib. But Alexander's book (pp. 218-19) has two summaries of P-E's beliefs, each one showing that P-E looked for only one future coming of Christ which would FOLLOW the "tribulatio magna lasting three and a half years"!
My book "The Rapture Plot" (1995) has an appendix analyzing P-E, and Dr. Robert Gundry's (1997) book "First the Antichrist" also demolishes Jeffrey's claim. ....
(from The Rapture Plot, by Dave MacPherson).
Davy
Well-Known Member
Caught up IS the rapture!!!
Ephraim the Syrian (A.D. 376)
Also in the fourth century, Ephraim the Syrian wrote a small book entitled, ANTICHRIST AND THE END OF THE WORLD. He published this and other works in A.D. 376. His works remained in relative obscurity throughout the centuries in their native language. They were only recently translated into English.
In ANTICHRIST AND THE END OF THE WORLD, Ephraim said, “We ought to understand thoroughly, therefore my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hungers and plagues, violent movements of nations and sins, which have been predicted by the Lord. Prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ so that He may draw us from the confusion which overwhelms the world. Believe you me, dearest brothers, because the coming of the Lord is nigh. Believe you me because the end of the world is at hand. Believe me because it is the very last time.
Because all Saints and the elect of the Lord are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come and are taken to the Lord in order that they may not see at anytime the confusion that overwhelms the world.==The rapture!!!
Pre-trib Revisionism Debunked.
Pseudo-Ephraem has been proven to have held to a post-tribulational coming of Jesus and gathering of the Church.
Davy
Well-Known Member
No such thing as 'Replacement Theology'. That is an idea that originates from the orthodox unbelieving Jews.
The Old Testament Patriarchs believed what God said about sending His people The Messiah. The New Testament is the 'evidence' that God kept His Promise on that. Messiah has already come, and His name is Jesus of Nazareth, The Christ, The Son of God.
The ten scattered tribes of the northern "kingdom of Israel" never returned to the holy land as a people. Even Jewish scholars well know that only a small remnant of the northern tribes left Jeroboam's gold calf idol worship and sided with the tribes of Judah and Benjamin in the southern "kingdom of Judah", and that the majority of the northern tribes never returned. So if you're Jewish, you are arguing against your own Jewish scholars.
Randy Kluth
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Yes, the believers in Jesus' time were given to escape the judgment coming upon the Jews in their generation. Jesus said Roman Armies would gather around Jerusalem like vultures. This would be the sign to escape for the believers, and they did. They fled to Pella and learned that this punishment was not for them, but for Jews who had turned against their own God and against His Christ.
I do believe God allows us to escape some things, when they are designed to punish others but not us. Sometimes, though, we are given to go through the troubles that come upon this world due to human sin, even though we ourselves have repented of sins.
Christ came into the world not to escape the troubles of this world, even though they were not meant for him. It was God's purpose that he suffer from the abuses of others so that he may forgive all.
In the same way, we should be willing to suffer some of the afflictions of this world that are aimed at the wicked, simply because we carry with us the grace of Christ. We should know that when we suffer in this world, it is not always because we have done wrong, and God is chastising us. Sometimes, God simply wants us to feel what Christ felt, and to extend the message of God's love to those who see the evil they have poured out on others in their innocence.
You just debunked the promise to Abraham, which Paul spoke of....
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Naomi25
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Should suffice for what? You posed that John 14:1-3 was Jesus himself teaching a Pre-trib Rapture. However, when we look at the text in context, Jesus is speaking to his Disciples about his 'going away' and their inability to follow him...just yet. That is what he is telling them 'not to be troubled about'.
And you are correct that it doesn't mention, or connect his return to the Tribulation; Pre or Post. Not here. There are other texts that speak of this. But not here. Incidentally, Matt 24:29-31, Mk 13:24-27 tells us that it is after the Tribulation. One doesn't need 'ears to hear' that, it says it most clearly.
So again, I wonder how your original claim holds any validity at all.
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