If You Believe Your Denomination Is...

[Marymog]

Mary - Seriously?
Are you unaware All Humans fall within the description of "ANY man"?

The point is to Beware of any man "WHO"...

beguiles you
with enticing words, philosophy, vain deceit, and traditions of men...

Wasn't what your pope (any man) who stated 166 yrs ago, the establishment of a Catholics new Tradition concerning Mary's natural birth?

Ummmm......since you FAILED to answer the question I will answer it for you dodgeball!!! YES, you are any man!!! Therefor I will not let YOU (any man) beguile me with enticing words. I will Beware That you do not spoil me through philosophy and vain deceit and twisting of words after the tradition of men from the Reformation.

I will listen to The Church (not a man like you) just like Scripture says to do!!

 

[Nancy]

I don't know how this became a debate over the Catholic Doctrines but it's time to wrap it up and try edifying one another instead.
These anti-catholic threads are becoming an obsession with many here.
From what I have researched the Catholic religion has split many times from the original Roman Catholic Church....and it is my humble opinion that much of what many members post concerning this denomination are in error of what they find on the internet. I am not Catholic but I have family and friends who are and they have beautiful souls....they know I don't agree with some of their doctrines but what matters most is that they believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. And we discuss scriptures together often with great joy.

Crack that whip!!!! Good for you H2S...it goes nowhere and certainly does not edify

 

[Taken]

It is impossible for the Church to invent any new tradition or doctrine that contradicts Scripture.

But yet...there is a Church...that did/does.

Thank you for your opinions. They certainly do seem to parallel opinions of Catholic Clerics who were challenged years ago.
(I cut all your accusations and rhetoric).

Luke 1:28 is key and was accepted by all Protestants until a few of them did flip flops.

That's why the church had to clarify 166 years ago what Luke 1:28 meant in accordance with what had always believed from the days of the Apostles,

"Mary born a sinner is a NEW man made tradition..."

It is not NEWS for centuries, reading and writing, were skills not advantaged to nearly all common lay people.

It is not NEWS, Teaching of Scripture, TO the common lay person, unskilled in reading, was by Oral Teaching.

OT men Taught by Speaking.
Jesus Taught by Speaking.
The Apostals Taught by Speaking.
And we find the Apostals Writing Letters TO Clerics of Churches to READ orally to common unskilled listeners.

Point Being:
The Tradition that was Established, by necessity, was: any person whose intent WAS to be a Teacher of Scripture, would become Educated in the skill of Reading and Writing.

Then to consider;
* Scripture is "Knowledge."
* The Knowledge; IS TRUTH
...any man can Believe it...or Not.
* The Knowledge;
...gives Examples
* The Examples;
...Reveals the Consequence For Believing the Knowledge is Truth.
...Reveals the Consequences For Believing the Knowledge is NOT Truth.

Scripture IS Not a Book of "Meanings and Definitions".

"Mary born a sinner IMO is a doctrine of demons because it diminishes the uniqueness of the Incarnation."
"Jesus was so special that even His mother had to be given a special grace of sinlessness to bear Him."
[/QUOTE]

I acknowledge YOUR OPINION.
I acknowledge YOUR OPINION, is parallel to the OPINIONS of catholic Clerics OPINIONS.

Back to the unskilled Listener;
It does NOT require a particular Skill, for a common lay person being TOLD something, to Wonder, Ponder, Inquire....HOW???WHY????
(It is so natural for a person to inquire HOW and WHY? About things they being TOLD, even a 2 year old, just having learned to Talk, has a Natural inquisitive Wondering OF How and Why of what they are being TOLD.)

The HOW and WHY...regarding ANY Topic...
Ventures INTO ... Meanings, Definitions...to impress an "Understanding" forward to the Listener.

It is NOT...some big mystery...when Clerics Orally Teach...the Listerers INQUIRE...How and Why.

We can find in Scripture...Jesus challenging Jewish Clerics...and Jewish Clerics huddling together to try to come up with an Answer.

Catholic Clerics for centuries have Followed the same protocol.
* Preach the Knowledge.
(And not to forget; The Preaching is to masses that can Not read or write).
* A lay Person ASKS...How or Why about the Knowledge they are hearing.
* The Clerics huddle together, toss around "their" different OPINIONS. Agree on the most "favored" OPINION among "them"...
* And Give "OPINIONATED meanings" of "how and why" to the common lay person listeners.
* DO THIS for Centuries and Decades...
And The OPINIONS, Become circulated, and Repeated, and ingrained... "as Facts"!

Enter the passage of Time.
Reading and Writing becomes a skill that is more and more established by people FOR people to Learn HOW TO Read and Write...and the technology of printing of Books on a press...and the determination of the common lay people to Teach Little Children (how to read and write) in their homes and communities.

Consider:
Common lay people...had begun teaching; in their homes, reading, writing, arithmetic, history. And their Reading practice, was primarily Scripture.

Catholics did similar...establishing Schools for Children...also Teaching Scripture....AND their OPINIONS, of How and Why, from Secondary Self-created books, (other than Scripture)...and that continues to this day.

The "Other" Schools ... have Become Assumed by the State Governments, and "they" changed the "curriculum" to include "books" of their design by Socialist writers, and Banned the USE of Scripture / Bible to be a Book used within their (government) Schools "for teaching".

Point is:
Your Wonderings being satisfied with Long Standing Opinions of Catholic Clerics (as Facts) is of NO interest to me.
Your Catholic Clerics long "gobbledygook explanations" of their OPINIONS, is of NO interest to me.

I am quite capable of Reading what the Knowledge in Scripture says.
I am quite Capable of Reading:

* John 3:
[13] And no man hath ascended UP to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

That Exclusively EXCLUDES ANY man From Descending FROM Heaven Or ANY man ASSENDING UP TO Heaven...But ONLY Exclusively APPLIES to The Son of God, who IS JESUS.

No where IN Scripture...IS that Scripture Expanded with NEW Knowledge TO INCLUDE, ANY of Man-KIND, Bodily rising TO Heaven.

At NO Time have you or Any other Catholic Been Able to Identify ONE Scripture that has Expanded John 3:13, to INCLUDE ANY man OTHER than the Son of God, JESUS, Bodily rising to Heaven.

Luke 1:28 is the key...

Luke is Not a key to unlock a some mysterious meaning ("you" Preach About Mary, being Naturally Born without Sin, and Bodily Raised to Heaven").

Luke 1:
[28] And the angel came in unto her, and said, Hail, thou that art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.

That Scripture ^ ... Luke 1:28 IS Notice...
The Lord is........WITH her!

(That Scripture DOES NOT say...oh and By the Way...You were Naturally Born SINLESS and when you Bodily die, your BODY will be Raised Up "to Heaven"...SO "your" BODY will BE..."WITH" the Lords Body in Heaven!!!
(And not to forget the expanded teaching of the Queen of Heaven Title and Heavenly throne for the Queen).
Yipes...a neverending fantacy!

Quite a far fetched Imagination to come up with THAT teaching and moreso convince others to fall for THAT Teaching.

Bottom Line- (*) These Things Are NOT taught in Scripture; Nor has anyone who Believes These Things Identified Any Scriptural Support for their Beliefs.
* Mary Naturally Born Sinless.
* Mary a Perpetual Virgin.
* Mary Risen Bodily to Heaven.

You are welcome to try again, identifying a Scripture, Believed by Any Scriptural Apostle.

...what Luke 1:28 meant "in accordance with" what had always believed from the days of "the Apostles",

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Illuminator]

But yet...there is a Church...that did/does.

That is your unproven opinion.

Thank you for your opinions. They certainly do seem to parallel opinions of Catholic Clerics who were challenged years ago.
(I cut all your accusations and rhetoric).

Revealed truths, as developed over time, are not opinions. Essential truths within development do not, and cannot change.
Development of Doctrine: A Corruption of Biblical Teaching? This is something you refuse to understand, and are forced to invent straw man fallacies opposing the Immaculate Conception.

It is not NEWS for centuries, reading and writing, were skills not advantaged to nearly all common lay people.

Then you should have no problem finding a Protestant church that contradicted the reformers Marian teachings before the mid 18th century, when your NEW diabolical opinions started. That's a challenge you run from. Luther, Calvin, Zwingli and others accepted the concept of the Immaculate Conception, but you don't care about them, you will stand by your man made traditions and arrogantly defend an unbiblical animus.

It is not NEWS, Teaching of Scripture, TO the common lay person, unskilled in reading, was by Oral Teaching.

OT men Taught by Speaking.
Jesus Taught by Speaking.
The Apostals Taught by Speaking.

Yet you deny Oral Teaching by changing it's meaning, and choke the Word of God by restricting it to was was written alone.

And we find the Apostals Writing Letters TO Clerics of Churches to READ orally to common unskilled listeners.

Yet you deny WHO determined what was proven to be inspired writings. *any person* whose intent WAS to be a Teacher of Scripture had to be ordained by a higher authority according to Scripture, which you deny.
By What Authority - A Challenge to Protestant Pastors

Point Being:
The Tradition that was Established, by necessity, was: any person whose intent WAS to be a Teacher of Scripture, would become Educated in the skill of Reading and Writing.

That is a dogmatic statement that is not found in Scripture, and again, you dishonestly change the meaning of Tradition. Without the 3-fold Tradition of the Episcopate, deacon, priest and bishop, you would have no Scripture. Your redefinition of Tradition is contradictory, self defeating and absurd.

 

[Taken]

Ummmm......since you FAILED to answer the question I will answer it for you dodgeball!!! YES, you are any man!!! Therefor I will not let YOU (any man) beguile me with enticing words. I will Beware That you do not spoil me through philosophy and vain deceit and twisting of words after the tradition of men from the Reformation.

I am NOT giving you...
Enticing words, Philosophies, Deceit, or Opinions.

I believe "your church Clerics have already accomplished ...giving you enticing words, philosophies, Deceit and their Opinions"...and "you as a faithful Catholic Believe and Repeat."

I'm not Pushing a Doctrine of enticing words, philosophies, deceit or Opinions.
That is a Catholics Gig.

My position IS what you are pushing...
I don't Agree with.

My position IS what you are pushing...
IS Not Scripturally Supported.

I will listen to The Church"

Exactly!
First of all, Jesus Taught His Church is Possessively "HIS Church".
It IS "HIS Church"!

Your Church, is "THE Church", Translated by your own Clerics as "THE Catholic Church".

"The Churches", that Follow "the Doctrine" of JESUS' CHURCH, Are "the Churches" Scripture Taught for the Apostles to Begin "Establishing"

(not a man like you)

Correct. A man like me, has NOT taught you or given you a Doctrine of enticing words, philosophies of men, and Opinions to Establish a NEW Doctrine for you to adopt, Believe and repeat.

* That is your Catholic Church.
* That is your Choice to Believe "Catholic Clerics" enticing words, philosophies, opinions, explanations.
* As it is my Choice to Request Scriptural Verification.
* As it has repeatedly been a Catholics Failure to Give Scriptural Verification.
* As it is my Choice to Reject Teaching that IS NOT Scripturally Verifiable.

(Just Like Scripture says What IS the precise Measure to Verify claims).

Acts 17: gives you a foundation of what is Nobel...

Acts: 17
[11] ... noble ...received the word with all readiness of mind, ... AND... searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I get it...you hear from your church...you believe what your Church Clerics Teach...

But are you Nobel? Do you search the Scriptures, whether those things you are Told ARE So?

If so, and you have Found such Scriptures...
Why is it you Can NOT identify ONE Scripture that reveals what you were taught, Believe, Repeat...are True?

?

 

[Taken]

That is your unproven opinion.

And that is your Opinion!

Revealed truths, as developed over time, are not opinions.

Truths Revealed in Scripture, are Standing.
It is "Understanding" of the Standing Truth that become developed over time.
And "Understanding" of Scripture is:
Either According TO Gods Understanding...
OR Opinions of men.

Then you should have no problem finding a Protestant church that contradicted the reformers Marian teachings before the mid 18th century, when your NEW diabolical opinions started. That's a challenge you run from.

LOL- I don't care what Anyone Challenges, or Disagrees with "because the Challenged can NOT verify."

Yet you deny Oral Teaching

Well ya, I have been forewarned...to Beware...there ARE / Were False Teachers and Will Be False Teachers!!!
Didn't you get the memo?

by changing it's meaning,

Now what is this Accusation all about?
Don't Make an Accusation and flutter off ...

* Identify What ORAL Scriptural Teaching Specific are you claiming I have Denied?
* Identify What this supposed meaning IS , and what exactly I supposedly changed it to.

[QUOTE ...choke the Word of God by restricting it to was was written alone.[/QUOTE]

LOL- ok now you are introducing a NEW concept...
Here you say the Word of God IS NOT restricted to the Written Word ONLY.
* Well I have Already addressed that.
I said Nothing about "choking out the Word of God," as you accuse...but showing your Accusation False, I specifically said Oral Teaching "of the Word of God" has a long history, to which I made NO objection.

Yet you deny WHO determined what was proven to be inspired writings.

Another False Accusation. Clearly I said and Scripture reveals...it was Jesus teaching, Jesus Speaking, Scribes writing, and even Apostles writing...
(Those are Jews).

There was NO one "Proving" any writings were inspired writings.

Lest you are unaware...Many People Wrote letters, documents, manuscripts...
I'll give the Catholic Church credit for confiscating, buying, hoarding (for many years in secrecy )as many such writings as they could get their hands on.

However it was often a random find by some lay person, relative, or archeologists who discovered the writings.

And no doubt Catholics Hired/Commissioned men to mull through hundreds+ of documents in hopes of finding a Document connected to Gods Word.

And to no great surprise many Documents were clearly Opinions of someone NOT with firsthand knowledge.

you dishonestly change the meaning of Tradition.

Here's a Key for you-
When all you have is Teaching- that Is NOT Verifible according to Jesus' Doctrine...
(All you have is a False Doctrine, YOU Elect to Believe.)

Since you can NOT prove your Doctrine IS in Accordance with Scripture... you backpeddle to a Long Standing Catholic "Tradition".

Dude- I don't care HOW LONG the Catholic Clerics have been TRADITIONALLY teaching a False Doctrine....
Repeating a Lie for 2 minutes or 2,000 years...doesn't impress me to say oh, gee, doesn't matter IF it IS True, only matters if it has been Accepted as a long time Tradition, as True! (Failing to acknowledge, many lay people Could not even Read TO verify!!!)

Your opiniated and false accusations toward a challenger are the KEY, to reveal you have No Scriptural Evidence of what you claim. You have NOT one iota of Evidence Jesus' Doctrine or His Apostles Thereafter taught or remotely hinted at any such things.

So again, the Bottom line is-
Where is Jesus' Doctrine....and the Apostles Teaching .... of your Catholic Doctrine;??
* THAT Mary was Naturally Born Without Sin?
* THAT Mary Bodily rose up to Heaven?

Waiting...

 

[Marymog]

I am NOT giving you...
Enticing words, Philosophies, Deceit, or Opinions.

I believe "your church Clerics have already accomplished ...giving you enticing words, philosophies, Deceit and their Opinions"...and "you as a faithful Catholic Believe and Repeat."

I'm not Pushing a Doctrine of enticing words, philosophies, deceit or Opinions.
That is a Catholics Gig.

My position IS what you are pushing...
I don't Agree with.

My position IS what you are pushing...
IS Not Scripturally Supported.

I will listen to The Church"
Exactly!
First of all, Jesus Taught His Church is Possessively "HIS Church".
It IS "HIS Church"!

Your Church, is "THE Church", Translated by your own Clerics as "THE Catholic Church".

"The Churches", that Follow "the Doctrine" of JESUS' CHURCH, Are "the Churches" Scripture Taught for the Apostles to Begin "Establishing"

(not a man like you)
Correct. A man like me, has NOT taught you or given you a Doctrine of enticing words, philosophies of men, and Opinions to Establish a NEW Doctrine for you to adopt, Believe and repeat.

* That is your Catholic Church.
* That is your Choice to Believe "Catholic Clerics" enticing words, philosophies, opinions, explanations.
* As it is my Choice to Request Scriptural Verification.
* As it has repeatedly been a Catholics Failure to Give Scriptural Verification.
* As it is my Choice to Reject Teaching that IS NOT Scripturally Verifiable.

(Just Like Scripture says What IS the precise Measure to Verify claims).

Acts 17: gives you a foundation of what is Nobel...

Acts: 17
[11] ... noble ...received the word with all readiness of mind, ... AND... searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.

I get it...you hear from your church...you believe what your Church Clerics Teach...

But are you Nobel? Do you search the Scriptures, whether those things you are Told ARE So?

If so, and you have Found such Scriptures...
Why is it you Can NOT identify ONE Scripture that reveals what you were taught, Believe, Repeat...are True?

Good morning taken,

I find it fascinating that you deny doing what The Church does.....you then use this forum to do what The Church does!!! You quote Scripture using it as verification to support your opinions, doctrines, practices, beliefs, philosophies etc. That is, in a nutshell, what The Church (really ANY church) does.

I KNOW you will never see this in yourself and it makes me sad because it makes it difficult to have a serious conversation with you.

@Heart2Soul suggested we start edifying one another instead. To edify means to be instructive or informative in a way that improves the mind or character. I believe have attempted to do that in this post. I hope you do not see my post as personal an attack on you. It is just what I have observed and hope you can use the information to improve.

Respectfully Mary

 

[mjrhealth]

Ummmm......since you FAILED to answer the question I will answer it for you dodgeball!!! YES, you are any man!!! Therefor I will not let YOU (any man) beguile me with enticing words. I will Beware That you do not spoil me through philosophy and vain deceit and twisting of words after the tradition of men from the Reformation.

I will listen to The Church (not a man like you) just like Scripture says to do!!

Problem is teh religious listen to their church and not Christ.

 

[Illuminator]

I KNOW you will never see this in yourself and it makes me sad because it makes it difficult to have a serious conversation with you.

It's not just difficult, it's impossible.



Taken's core belief is sola scriptura, or a "Bible Alone" premises that has proven to be divisive, unworkable, unbiblical, unhistorical, indefensible and man made. Anything outside of this core belief is rejected. Taken demands we abide by a rule made of sand; nothing else is acceptable.

• Early reformers teachings, not acceptable.
• ECF, not acceptable.
• Development of doctrine, not acceptable.

Doctrines agreed upon by all develop. The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325, and the full doctrine of the Trinity in 381.The dogma of the Two Natures of Christ (God and Man) was proclaimed in 451. These decisions of General Councils of the Church were in response to challenging heresies (who used "Bible Alone"). Why should Taken accept these authoritative verdicts, but reject similar proclamations on Mary?

Cognitive dissonance is the same response every time, making serious discussion impossible.

 

[Marymog]

Problem is teh religious listen to their church and not Christ.

Lol....thank you

 

[Heart2Soul]

Good morning taken,

I find it fascinating that you deny doing what The Church does.....you then use this forum to do what The Church does!!! You quote Scripture using it as verification to support your opinions, doctrines, practices, beliefs, philosophies etc. That is, in a nutshell, what The Church (really ANY church) does.

I KNOW you will never see this in yourself and it makes me sad because it makes it difficult to have a serious conversation with you.

@Heart2Soul suggested we start edifying one another instead. To edify means to be instructive or informative in a way that improves the mind or character. I believe have attempted to do that in this post. I hope you do not see my post as personal an attack on you. It is just what I have observed and hope you can use the information to improve.

Respectfully Mary

Thank you for the support!

 

[mjrhealth]

It's not just difficult, it's impossible.

View attachment 10436

Taken's core belief is sola scriptura, or a "Bible Alone" premises that has proven to be divisive, unworkable, unbiblical, unhistorical, indefensible and man made. Anything outside of this core belief is rejected. Taken demands we abide by a rule made of sand; nothing else is acceptable.

• Early reformers teachings, not acceptable.
• ECF, not acceptable.
• Development of doctrine, not acceptable.

Doctrines agreed upon by all develop. The Divinity or Godhood of Christ was only finalized in 325, and the full doctrine of the Trinity in 381.The dogma of the Two Natures of Christ (God and Man) was proclaimed in 451. These decisions of General Councils of the Church were in response to challenging heresies (who used "Bible Alone"). Why should Taken accept these authoritative verdicts, but reject similar proclamations on Mary?

Cognitive dissonance is the same response every time, making serious discussion impossible.

problem is teh people that put that up usually suffer exaclty the same symptoms.

 

[Taken]

Good morning taken,

I find it fascinating that you deny doing what The Church does.....you then use this forum to do what The Church does!!!

I am all for What Jesus taught as His Doctrine, and the same Doctrine His Apostles carried on.
When ANY Church organization Carries on Jesus' Doctrine...ANY person can go to the Scriptures and Verify that what That Church is
Carrying on, Preaching, Teaching IS in line According to Jesus' Doctrine.

When A Church creates its OWN Doctrine, any individual has his own Freewill TO Accept or Reject those created Doctrines.
You have chosen "your church", you have Chosen to Accept "your churches created Doctrines".
Keep in mind "those are your Choices"...not mine.
I do not find several of your critical Doctrines inline or carrying on Jesus' Doctrines.
The reasoning or excuses, for your Churches deviating from Jesus' Doctrines, but "claiming" their Doctrines ARE carrying on Jesus' Doctrine, is but Unverifible smoke and mirrors.
You can believe the reasoning/excuses, without Scriptural Verification...
But I do not...as I have the same option as you, to Choose what I Trust to Believe.
The fact is: I disagree with you...AND you disagree with me.
The Difference is: Catholics have (I presume Taught, since a great majority of Catholics parrot the exact same comments)...
Anti-Catholic, Wrong, personal finger jabs, etc.
The implication...anti-Catholic...really? Then what would that make you ...anti-Protestant?

Protestants and Catholics have a completely different paradigm ...
Words between the Two-groups;
do not have the Same meaning....
Allegiences regarding the Two-groups;
Are not the Same...
The WAY to Salvation;
Is not the Same...
The WAY to a Quickened spirit;
IS not the Same...
The Doctrines of the two groups;
Are not the Same ...
The Verification of the two groups ;
IS not the Same...

You quote Scripture using it as verification to support your opinions, doctrines, practices, beliefs, philosophies etc.

Yes. I Trust Jesus' Doctrine and Trust the Extent of Jesus' Doctrine is Sufficient to Change a man and opportune the man to Glorify God.

That is, in a nutshell, what The Church (really ANY church ) does.

No they do Not. Many Churches, introduce Doctrines Beyond Jesus' Doctrine, that actually HIGHLIGHT things Other than the Lord God Himself.

I KNOW you will never see this in yourself and it makes me sad because it makes it difficult to have a serious conversation with you.

What I recognize and Know, is We have a great difference in our paradigms...I accept the differences, I do not agree with you and you do not agree with me...
I can Verify my belief, using Scripture to Verify my beliefs...you can not.

@Heart2Soul suggested we start edifying one another instead. To edify means to be instructive or informative in a way that improves the mind or character. I believe have attempted to do that in this post. I hope you do not see my post as personal an attack on you. It is just what I have observed and hope you can use the information to improve.[/QUOTE]

Information exchange regarding two people on the same page IS edifying.
Information exchange regarding two people in two different Books more like Chrislam.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Illuminator]

Protestants and Catholics have a completely different paradigm ...

That is not true at all. Everything that is true in your paradigm was borrowed wholesale from the historic Church. We have plenty in common. It's your "us verses them" mentality that further divides the Body of Christ.

Words between the Two-groups;
do not have the Same meaning....

Yes, words like doctrine.
There is no Magisterial definition of doctrine.

Doctrine reflects the collective wisdom and holiness of the whole Church.
We only have true Faith to the extent we have accepted Revelation. Faith and revelation are two sides of the same coin, two sides of the relationship between God and Man. Furthermore, God has revealed the Faith we should have in acceptance of His Revelation. The Magisterium has taught truths about both Revelation and Faith.

Furthermore, Catholic doctrine is objectively true, which means that it is true for all people at all times and places. It cannot be “true for me” but not “true for you,” except in a psychological or sociological sense. Yes, it might not be true to all people (all people might not accept it as true), but it is true for all people. Catholic doctrine is as true about reality as 2 + 2 = 4 is true about reality. Someone who disagrees with it is as mistaken as someone who thinks 2 + 2 = 5. (Which is to say nothing about blameworthiness for being mistaken.)

So I suggest a more complete definition of doctrine is: the Magisterium’s authoritative clarification of Revelation and Faith that must be accepted as objectively true in order to be Catholic. As far as I can tell, this definition seems to fit the use of the word doctrine in Magisterial documents. But we need to keep in mind that the definition I have just given is not a Magisterial definition of doctrine. There is no Magisterial definition of doctrine.

With the recent “Amazon Synod” and the canonization of John Henry Newman and with the “synodal way” to begin in Germany on December 1, there has been in the Catholic world more discussion than usual on the “development of doctrine.” We should realize this: while the expression of doctrine can change, the substance or content of doctrine cannot change. In your paradigm, doctrines can change according to the Protestant Principle of Private Judgement. In the Catholic paradigm, a doctrine must have an unchanging element as passed down from the Apostles, or it's not a doctrine. You mean something totally different when you use the word doctrine. Sola scriptura was a radical departure from what was passed down, as a principle it has no unchanging elements of truth from the Apostles. By changing the meaning of doctrine, you make room for a doctrinized man made tradition that isn't found anywhere in the Bible. You mock what you refuse to understand because that is what you have been trained to do. Then you fall for fad theology that contradicts 1800 years of all of Christianity, at the same time put up more walls between Protestants and Catholics.

 

[Marymog]

I am all for What Jesus taught as His Doctrine, and the same Doctrine His Apostles carried on.
When ANY Church organization Carries on Jesus' Doctrine...ANY person can go to the Scriptures and Verify that what That Church is
Carrying on, Preaching, Teaching IS in line According to Jesus' Doctrine.

When A Church creates its OWN Doctrine, any individual has his own Freewill TO Accept or Reject those created Doctrines.
You have chosen "your church", you have Chosen to Accept "your churches created Doctrines".
Keep in mind "those are your Choices"...not mine.
I do not find several of your critical Doctrines inline or carrying on Jesus' Doctrines.
The reasoning or excuses, for your Churches deviating from Jesus' Doctrines, but "claiming" their Doctrines ARE carrying on Jesus' Doctrine, is but Unverifible smoke and mirrors.
You can believe the reasoning/excuses, without Scriptural Verification...
But I do not...as I have the same option as you, to Choose what I Trust to Believe.
The fact is: I disagree with you...AND you disagree with me.
The Difference is: Catholics have (I presume Taught, since a great majority of Catholics parrot the exact same comments)...
Anti-Catholic, Wrong, personal finger jabs, etc.
The implication...anti-Catholic...really? Then what would that make you ...anti-Protestant?

Protestants and Catholics have a completely different paradigm ...
Words between the Two-groups;
do not have the Same meaning....
Allegiences regarding the Two-groups;
Are not the Same...
The WAY to Salvation;
Is not the Same...
The WAY to a Quickened spirit;
IS not the Same...
The Doctrines of the two groups;
Are not the Same ...
The Verification of the two groups ;
IS not the Same...



Yes. I Trust Jesus' Doctrine and Trust the Extent of Jesus' Doctrine is Sufficient to Change a man and opportune the man to Glorify God.



No they do Not. Many Churches, introduce Doctrines Beyond Jesus' Doctrine, that actually HIGHLIGHT things Other than the Lord God Himself.



What I recognize and Know, is We have a great difference in our paradigms...I accept the differences, I do not agree with you and you do not agree with me...
I can Verify my belief, using Scripture to Verify my beliefs...you can not.

@Heart2Soul suggested we start edifying one another instead. To edify means to be instructive or informative in a way that improves the mind or character. I believe have attempted to do that in this post. I hope you do not see my post as personal an attack on you. It is just what I have observed and hope you can use the information to improve.

Information exchange regarding two people on the same page IS edifying.
Information exchange regarding two people in two different Books more like Chrislam.

Glory to God,
Taken[/QUOTE]
Like I said: I KNOW you will never see this in yourself and it makes me sad because it makes it difficult to have a serious conversation with you.

You, once again, have proven that.

 

[Taken]

That is not true at all.

Lest see if THAT -(difference between Two Groups /ProtestantCatholics / is True or not)

words-
I call "The Church"- Christ's Church.
Catholics call "The Church"- Catholics Church.

Allegiences-
My Spiritual Allegience Is to- Christ the Lord God.
A Catholics Allegience Is to- Pope, Catholic Church

Salvation-
My Salvation has already been given me-
A Catholics salvation is given on condition, of THEY work to Keep it.

Quickened spirit-
My Quickened spirit was given me at my request.
A Catholics Quickened spirit is given (without their knowledge), at the request of another.

Doctrines-
Jesus' Scriptural Doctrine is sufficient for me.
Catholics establish their own Doctrines, whether or not those Doctrines are ON based on Scripture or verifiable IN Scripture.

Verification-
I can verify Jesus' Doctrine in Scripture.
Catholics can verify their Doctrines in Catholic Printed books that are Not Scripture.

Very Different!

Everything that is true in your paradigm was borrowed wholesale from the historic Church.

Before Jesus was sent TO Earth,
There was NO Church.
Jesus Established...His Church.
The Historic Church- IS Christ Jesus' Church.

We have plenty in common. It's your "us verses them" mentality that further divides the Body of Christ.

The DIVISION is what People Do.
People DIVIDE themselves BY what they are Willing TO Trust TO Believe.

The DIVISION among men...is Exactly one of the highlights...Jesus came "TO CAUSE"!

Yes, words like doctrine.
There is no Magisterial definition of doctrine.

Doctrine of Jesus is Expressly defined and revealed IN Scripture.

Doctrine reflects the collective wisdom and holiness of the whole Church.

The Knowledge of Jesus' Doctrine is Expressly revealed IN Scripture.

The WISDOM of Jesus' Doctrine is Revealed BY Christ TO individuals.

We only have true Faith to the extent we have accepted Revelation.

It hangs on WHO is revealing WHAT.
I place my Trust on the WHO being, Christ the Lord God...and faithful men "HE" appointed.

(You may not have Noticed, but there is No revelation that God has appointed Popes, or that even you have Any say in Who is Appointed Pope...yet, you have elected To Make yourself submissive to your Pope, even calling him "your holy father".)

Ya, No. I divide myself Away from your Church, your Doctrines and your holy father.

I have a "righteous" Earthly father "appointed" by God...Abraham.
I have a "Holy" Father who IS WHO He Is:
The Lord God Almighty.

Faith and revelation are two sides of the same coin, two sides of the relationship between God and Man. Furthermore, God has revealed the Faith we should have in acceptance of His Revelation. The Magisterium has taught truths about both Revelation and Faith.

Faith is a Gift, exclusively a Gift that IS Gods, and ONLY, given BY God.

Revelation IS Knowledge. Available for all interested to hear, read.

Understanding the "Meaning" of "HIS" knowledge, "IS a Gift" from the Lord God, TO Believing Individuals.

Men can Discuss their Individual "understanding"...
( However...it is NOT a Big Secret...
The Source of their "Understanding"...
An individual's SOURCE is Blatantly Obvious ...
* Mindful Logical conclusions.
* Commentaries of another's conclusions.
* a Clerics Conclusion
* a Churches Written Conclusions
And "THE Understanding" of Gods own Knowledge? ...utterly missing...Yet is the ONLY WAY, a Believing man CAN receive Gods OWN Understand OF His Knowledge!

Furthermore, Catholic doctrine is objectively true, which means that it is true for all people at all times and places. It cannot be “true for me” but not “true for you,” except in a psychological or sociological sense. Yes, it might not be true to all people (all people might not accept it as true), but it is true for all people. Catholic doctrine is as true about reality as 2 + 2 = 4 is true about reality. Someone who disagrees with it is as mistaken as someone who thinks 2 + 2 = 5. (Which is to say nothing about blameworthiness for being mistaken.)

All that is irrelevant psychobabble.
Individuals Decide what Source "to Trust.
Individuals Decide what is "their" Truth.

So I suggest a more complete definition of doctrine is: the Magisterium’s authoritative clarification of Revelation and Faith that must be accepted as objectively true in order to be Catholic. As far as I can tell, this definition seems to fit the use of the word doctrine in Magisterial documents. But we need to keep in mind that the definition I have just given is not a Magisterial definition of doctrine. There is no Magisterial definition of doctrine.

Magisterial- whatever that meaning is to you, can claim whatever "authority" they choose.

You can Freely Accept, and Agree with, and Declare Allegience To: their Announced Authority, their Teachings, Their knowledge, Their Meanings, Their Explanations, Their Understandings.
And I can freely Not Accept, Not Agree, Not declare Allegience To what "you" have chosen.

I do not care if they are calling their Teaching ... Doctrine or by some other name...

With the recent “Amazon Synod” and the canonization of John Henry Newman and with the “synodal way” to begin in Germany on December 1, there has been in the Catholic world more discussion than usual on the “development of doctrine.” We should realize this: while the expression of doctrine can change, the substance or content of doctrine cannot change.

I have no interest in John Henry Newman, or what interest your Church has in him.

Doctrine / Substance cannot change?
I would agree Christ Jesus' Doctrine Does NOT Change.

But then it is NOT changing Christ's Doctrine per'se, that is in Question...

The Point is Teaching A Doctrine...
That Was Never A Doctrine of Christ Jesus...
And Teaching ...AS IF... It were included in Christ Jesus' Doctrine

In your paradigm, doctrines can change according to the Protestant Principle of Private Judgement.

And you conclude ... me Trusting The Lord Gods Knowledge and His Understanding...
As Private Judgement?

Okay...Not an issue with me. It is a private relationship between the Lord God and myself.
It was my judgment to Exclusively Trust the Lord God.
You can trust Whom you choose.

In the Catholic paradigm, a doctrine must have an unchanging element as passed down from the Apostles, or it's not a doctrine.

An unchanging "Element"...?
Then...why can you Not Show Scriptural Verification of the Apostals Teaching:
A Catholics Teaching concerning Mary?

You mean something totally different when you use the word doctrine.

No.
If it is Jesus' TEACHING, it is His Doctrine.

If it is a man's Teaching, it is a man's Doctrine.

I do not care about how a Catholic slices or dices Teaching, calling it what they will.
If your Church is Teaching...calling it Doctrine, or by some other word...
The "members of your church" have already "agreed", when they "agreed" to become a members of Your church...to yield to the authority of Your pope and Trust to believe what he dictates is "a Truth" to be adhered to By all of that churches members.

Sola scriptura was a radical departure from what was passed down,

A "radical" Departure...from "Scripture" being passed down?

as a principle it has no unchanging elements of truth from the Apostles.

"No Unchanging Principles"-?

That is hokey psychobabble.
Radical change in the words...but from those words...a Principle is unchanged!

Dude...seems you are advocating "changing" the words "a supposed ( "BY declaration" ), radical Scripture "to" fit a A (devised) "principle".

I would agree that seems to be exactly what the Catholic Church has Done.
Declare the Scripture "to be radically departed" from Scripture...and so to Fix "that"...what? Declare Different Beliefs, called Doctrines or whatever descriptive words the Church Chooses?

Continued

 

[Taken]

continued;

Illuminated said:

By changing the meaning of doctrine, you make room for a doctrinized man made tradition that isn't found anywhere in the Bible.

Now that is Funny.
Teaching is Teaching. Teaching is in its very essence designed to Impress a Belief by the Teacher/ the materials used as a Basis For the Belief....forward To the Listener/Student.

When the Teacher declares the Scripture has Been "Radically Departed" ... inferring Radically Changed ... then the implication is...the Scripture Can NOT be a Reliable Source for the Basis FOR the Teacher to rely on, or the Student/Listener to Rely on.

Again- I do not care what your Catholic Church teaches by what description to "call" THEIR Fix, to "Their" proclaimed "radical departure"...if it is your Churches Teaching...it is Teaching, and an expectation of Members to Agree with the Teaching...called by whatever name.

You mock what you refuse to understand because that is what you have been trained to do. Then you fall for fad theology that contradicts 1800 years of all of Christianity, at the same time put up more walls between Protestants and Catholics.

You are attempting to MOCK me on a False premise YOU have Set.
You have ZERO knowledge of my "training".
You simply accuse, on a Fantasy you pick out of thin air.
At the same time complaining of being Mocked.
Catholics have Declared their own beliefs regarding Mary.
I have asked questions regarding their belief.
I have asked for a Scriptural written Source that Verifies their Belief.
Some Catholics have responded:
Identifying a Scriptural Reference: (not a quote)...
I look up the actual Scripture...it says Nothing whatsoever to Verify their claim.
Other Catholics have quoted, their popes, bishops, commentators, catechism, as their Sources.
Ya, well NO, I don't fall for their sources, regardless of how many Decades their sources have decided the Scriptures have been "radically departed" and (a FEW, select, and Behind closed doors) "historical Catholics" were "Johnny on the Spot", to FIX those so called "radical departures"....and Publically Announce "to their church members" "THEIR FIX, (for such so called "radical departures".

Dude- Inanutshell...of essence, you purport nothing new.

* In the Garden God said...Trust Him.
... the Serpent said...eh Trust him, not God.
* In Scripture God said...Trust Scripture
... Men calling themselves Catholic say, Scripture is RADICALY departed...Trust "them".

You have made your own choice on what source to Trust.
I have made my own choice on what source to Trust.

I don't get ALL the credit for DIVISION, between you and me...as you propose (and implying Division is a bad thing).

Your choices by default is accredited to your own Dividing.

It is the Source of our Divisions that is in RADICALLY different.

I Trust Scripture "IS" Totally Sufficient To Teach any man the Complete Truthful Knowledge necessary for Any man, to become MADE Wholly Whole (body,soul,spirit...Once and Forever) According TO the Word of God.

I do NOT Elect to Trust "your sources".

I find your "sources" as utterly displeasing, as you have found my source "Scripture", displeasing...and called by you..."Radically departed".

Disagreeing, Division, Mocking...lands on both sides...
clearly, you should be careful about pointing the finger about the cause of division, as if DIVISION is a bad thing...
Jesus IS the Cause of DIVISION!
People Divide themselves!
So IF you are a person...you have Divided yourself...that credit belongs to You!

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

Information exchange regarding two people on the same page IS edifying.
Information exchange regarding two people in two different Books more like Chrislam.

Glory to God,
Taken

Like I said: I KNOW you will never see this in yourself and it makes me sad because it makes it difficult to have a serious conversation with you.

You, once again, have proven that.[/QUOTE]

Thank you.
I agree.
I recognize when an other and I are on the same page...it is simple for each to open their respective Bibles, Turn to the Same page and have a discussion on the Same Verse.

I also recognize that is not possible, when One Book is a Bible and an other is not Using A Book called the Bible.

If you should like to have a conversation on Mary's supposed SINLESS Natural birth, or Mary having supposedly Having risen to Heaven Bodily ...

Identify your Book and page, which is your source .

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Illuminator]

Lest see if THAT -(difference between Two Groups /ProtestantCatholics / is True or not)

words-
I call "The Church"- Christ's Church.
Catholics call "The Church"- Catholics Church.

Wrong. We count our separated brethren as brothers and sisters in Christ. Separate communities are still part of the Church. I've posted CCC817-820 a hundred times, you despise it.

Allegiences-
My Spiritual Allegience Is to- Christ the Lord God.
A Catholics Allegience Is to- Pope, Catholic Church

A false dichotomy and a total misunderstanding of Catholics relationship with the Pope. There is no allegiance to a mere man.

Salvation-
My Salvation has already been given me-
A Catholics salvation is given on condition, of THEY work to Keep it.

A blatant lie that won't go away.

Quickened spirit-
My Quickened spirit was given me at my request.
A Catholics Quickened spirit is given (without their knowledge), at the request of another.

Another lie.

Doctrines-
Jesus' Scriptural Doctrine is sufficient for me.
Catholics establish their own Doctrines, whether or not those Doctrines are ON based on Scripture or verifiable IN Scripture.

All Catholic doctrines are derived directly or indirectly from Scripture. You are too hostile to accept explanations based on reason. Faith and reason are compatible. Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).

Verification-
I can verify Jesus' Doctrine in Scripture.
Catholics can verify their Doctrines in Catholic Printed books that are Not Scripture.

Everybody does that, but not everybody falls for man made traditions that are in rebellion to your their own reformers, like your anti-reformist diabolical opinions about Jesus' mother.

Before Jesus was sent TO Earth,
There was NO Church.
Jesus Established...His Church.
The Historic Church- IS Christ Jesus' Church.

There is no evidence of sola scriptura or sola fide in the first 16 centuries of Christianity, and you cannot prove otherwise.

The DIVISION is what People Do.
People DIVIDE themselves BY what they are Willing TO Trust TO Believe.

The DIVISION among men...is Exactly one of the highlights...Jesus came "TO CAUSE"!

John 17:20-23 ) Jesus said that the unity of Christians would be objective evidence to the world that He had been sent by God. How can the world see an invisible "unity" that exists only in the hearts of believers? What does the ever-increasing fragmentation of Protestantism say to the world? The Catholic Church wants to heal wounds to unity through better understanding. You work for the opposite with misrepresentations and lies.

Doctrine of Jesus is Expressly defined and revealed IN Scripture.

Yes, absolutely, but nowhere does Scripture support "Scripture Alone". If 2 Timothy 3 proves the sole sufficiency of Scripture, then, by analogy, Ephesians 4 would likewise prove the sufficiency of pastors and teachers for the attainment of Christian perfection. In Ephesians 4:11–15, the Christian believer is equipped, built up, brought into unity and mature manhood, and even preserved from doctrinal confusion by means of the teaching function of the Church. This is a far stronger statement of the perfecting of the saints than 2 Timothy 3, yet it does not even mention Scripture.

The Knowledge of Jesus' Doctrine is Expressly revealed IN Scripture.

"Sufficient" does not mean "exclusive".

The WISDOM of Jesus' Doctrine is Revealed BY Christ TO individuals.

That is your doctrine that is not in the Bible. The WISDOM of Jesus' Doctrine is Revealed BY Christ through His Church. Individualism undermines the unity that Christ wills for His Church.

It hangs on WHO is revealing WHAT.
I place my Trust on the WHO being, Christ the Lord God...and faithful men "HE" appointed.

What is the expiration date of Hebrews 13:17?

(You may not have Noticed, but there is No revelation that God has appointed Popes, or that even you have Any say in Who is Appointed Pope...yet, you have elected To Make yourself submissive to your Pope, even calling him "your holy father".)

(You may not have Noticed, but Jesus appointed Simon bar Jonah when He changed his name to ROCK, and "holy" and "father" are biblical adjectives describing mere humans all over the place in Scripture.

And "THE Understanding" of Gods own Knowledge? ...utterly missing...Yet is the ONLY WAY, a Believing man CAN receive Gods OWN Understand OF His Knowledge! All that is irrelevant psychobabble.
Individuals Decide what Source "to Trust.
Individuals Decide what is "their" Truth.Magisterial- whatever that meaning is to you, can claim whatever "authority" they choose.
You can Freely Accept, and Agree with, and Declare Allegience To: their Announced Authority, their Teachings, Their knowledge, Their Meanings, Their Explanations, Their Understandings.
And I can freely Not Accept, Not Agree, Not declare Allegience To what "you" have chosen.
I do not care if they are calling their Teaching ... Doctrine or by some other name...
I have no interest in John Henry Newman, or what interest your Church has in him.

Doctrine / Substance cannot change?
I would agree Christ Jesus' Doctrine Does NOT Change.

But then it is NOT changing Christ's Doctrine per'se, that is in Question...

The Point is Teaching A Doctrine...
That Was Never A Doctrine of Christ Jesus...
And Teaching ...AS IF... It were included in Christ Jesus' Doctrine

And you conclude ... me Trusting The Lord Gods Knowledge and His Understanding...
As Private Judgement?

Okay...Not an issue with me. It is a private relationship between the Lord God and myself.
It was my judgment to Exclusively Trust the Lord God.
You can trust Whom you choose.

Is your pastor aware that you have created your own private anti-Protestant church based on your "infallible" private revelation, or do you even have a pastor?

An unchanging "Element"...?
Then...why can you Not Show Scriptural Verification of the Apostals Teaching:
A Catholics Teaching concerning Mary?

We don't separate Mary from Jesus the way you do, and we don't ignore the OT Scriptural Verification the way you do. Plus, you are too hostile to accept Scriptural Verification. see The Blessed Virgin Mary: Biblical & Catholic Overview
And we don't assert anti-Biblical, anti-reformist diabolical opinions about Mary the way you do.

A "radical" Departure...from "Scripture" being passed down?

That's not what I said. Sola Scriptura is a radical, unheard of, novel departure from the Biblical rule of faith (Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium working together in harmony) Sola Scriptura, as the sole rule of faith, is nowhere to be found in Scripture and totally unheard of until the mentally ill Luther invented it because he lost a debate. You accept his man made tradition, but reject his teachings about Mary. I accept what has been handed down by faith, you accept whatever you choose.

 

[Taken]

Wrong. We count our separated brethren as brothers and sisters in Christ. Separate communities are still part of the Church.

LOL- I wasn't talking about men in Christ being in different localities.

I've posted CCC817-820 a hundred times, you despise it.

Haven't a clue what your code means and haven't read your supposed 100x posting.
Apparently posting something, caused you to be psychic, knowing who has read it and despises it.....even though I have said no such thing. LOL.

A false dichotomy and a total misunderstanding of Catholics relationship with the Pope. There is no allegiance to a mere man.

Agree your Pope is but a mere Human man....
Interesting you have but a mere man that is your "holy father", but you have no allegiance to him...eh, other Catholics have claimed differently.

A blatant lie that won't go away.
Another lie.

Nope, not lies, but Claims made by Catholics.
* Some claiming They Have received Salvation, but can lose it, IF their lifes works are not sufficient at the time of their physical Death.
* Some claiming they received the baptism of the Holy Spirit, their own Quickened spirit at the request of their parents, a ceremony performed by a Priest, to which they have no knowledge of the event.

If thoses are lies...and they were told to me by practicing Catholics...seems ya'll are not on the same page...and not to be believed.
Thanks for the tip.

All Catholic doctrines are derived directly or indirectly from Scripture.

No clue what you mean by indirectly from Scripture.
Is that like; the Name Mary and she was A Virgin from Scripture, and Catholic Clerics Decide indirectly what missing words should accommodate the two Scriptural words; Mary and Virgin?

You are too hostile to accept explanations based on reason.

See now you are just being a typical rabble rouser ...
I asked a couple of questions and you have made long posts about everything but answering the questions...

So why not address:
Scripture that supports:

* Mary was Naturally Born SINLESS.
* Mary was Bodily raised up to Heaven.