ScottA
Well-Known Member
I am well, thank you.
But you laugh at His words, not mine: He said "all flesh", but you laugh and say, "No?"
Modern Prophets
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But you laugh at His words, not mine: He said "all flesh", but you laugh and say, "No?"
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Hey, Scott. My apologies if it came off as offensive. I was simply making a little light of that interpretation, because I have heard it before and it screams of bad logic. The context tells you what the phrase means; that He will pour out His Spirit upon believers of all ages, from the very old to the very young. To assume He literally meant all flesh throughout the world, you would have the text saying He will pour out His Spirit upon Satanists, upon serial killers, upon rapists, upon dogs, chickens and cows, upon roadkill in the street... I know it sounds like I'm being facetious or even insulting, but I'm simply saying that to take the expression literally is to make an out-of-context mistake.
I'm reading Proverbs now in my lunchtime reading.
:)
Your comments remind me of my thoughts yesterday after I was on my way home, thinking about what I had written . . .
And realizing what I really wanted to say is of course this all comes in knowing God Himself. To know God is to know His love. This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God. Our Creator.
Yes, Proberbs 3, this is how we go about having a life. Order our minds in this way. Set yourself to do things in this way. Ecclesiastes was very instrumental for me, to reform my mind with the correct sense of importance. Having just finished Psalms, my take-away this time was in discovering much more of what it was for Jesus to share in the human experience of life.
The more of the Bible we can get into our hearts and minds, to give us victory over sin, and to form in us the mind of Christ, More Bible = More Life for the child of God.
For me the most important seeking is the seek God. He promised that if we seek we find, if we draw near to Him He draws near to us and His promises are true!
Just to know Him, to know Jesus, here with me now!
Much love!
Amen! When you can come to understand His heart, His mind, His hidden wisdom, His ways then you achieved Proverbs 3!
Not so much different as you may think.
Yes, different.
To be candid . . .
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
This would be me, and this would be you.
I've long understood that while I do evangelize at times, I'm primarly to the body. Interestingly, my neighbors are mostly Christians, my co-workers are Christians, quite a number of the store clerks where I shop are Christians, I'm just surrounded by them!
There is only one Way, His Way, and only in His way will His will be fulfilled.
It's up to me to speak the understanding I have, I believe it is from Him, but it's up to you to compare my words with Scripture. I'm to point you to the Bible with correct understanding, that it will correctly inform your life.
But back to prophecy. My desire is to teach prophetically, as this will yield the greatest harvest, in my life. It's not to me to say whether I do or not, that place is given to Another. Desire that you may prophecy, to build up the church.
Earnestly desire the greatest gifts. BUT . . . I show you a more excellent way, the way of love. Loving God, and loving others, and not caring about yourself. And then God will work His love through you in His Way.
Much love!
That really IS a good chapter! I just read through it again a few times, thank you for linking it . . . twice . . . so when I didn't look the first time . . . I did the second time . . . and was blessed!
:)
Much love!
Hi HIH,
Well written, and good study comparing Paul's words to Moses in Numbers. Yes, I'd would agree with this analysis, that in all likelyhood Paul had that passage in mind as he wrote. That God wanted us to see this connection.
Now, how exactly does enigma mean dreams and interpretations? Definitely something mysterious!
I have a slightly different line of thought on this passage . . . big surprise I'm sure!! :)
We, even the apostles, even Paul, we all see through a glass in enigmas, but then we shall see face to face.
You are leaving out one part . . . through a glass, that is, as in a mirror, in enigmas.
11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
As you've noted, the context around this portion is that we can seek after the gifts we want, but here is a more excellent way, to love. Love is the heart, and without love it's all meaningless.
This is what love looks like, love is what lasts, these other things, they are all incomplete, it's love. These other things, they will pass away, but it's love that will last.
Put away childishness, and understand, do we think we are Moses, talking face to face with God? We're not.
For now we see . . . in a mirror . . . in enigmas . . . then face to face.
Where else do we read about seeing a in a glass?
2 Corinthians 3
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.
Beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord.
We see through a glass darkly, but then face to face. Now we don't see Jesus face to face, we're not Moses. But we do see Him in our reflection, and though we don't even see ourselves clearly, to the extent that we can see Him this transforms us.
But we don't even see ourselves clearly. We look at ourselves and we're just an enigma. So let's forget about all this striving about gifts, and just try to love each other. Then chapter 14, here are ways to think about the gifts, and to use them, so that you are focused on loving others, and not getting puffed up yourself.
I think that "seeing through a glass darkly" is about seeing ourselves without understanding.
But I'm interested in what you can show me concerning "enigmas" being specific towards dreams and visions. Again, I like what you posted on this crossreference!
Much love!
Did you catch the part where it says how He created everything and added purpose to it and how it was to operate?
19 The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
20 By his knowledge the depths are broken up, and the clouds drop down the dew.
This all isn't arbitrary. God has a Way, and according to that Way, what Jeremiah calls the eternal path, everything follows a certain order.
And therefore, we hide His Word in our hearts, so we have His wisdom, and His understanding, and His knowledge, so that we can follow His order. And of course all these are found in Christ.
This is the beauty to me with these passages, that they order our minds, and if we pattern our minds according to the Scriptures, this is the mind of Christ.
Much love!
Oh no you don't...that's the beginner's level.......lol....He has His Hidden wisdom and the Mysteries of God....and the deep revelation of His Word that continues to be revealed in it's time....as you continue in His Word He will begin to show you the hidden wisdom in it.
Some people are so far ahead of me that it makes me look like a 1st grader....lol.
What I've found is that the true depths can be very simply expressed. Our hope, the end result that our faith is looking ahead to, is glory, brought about by Christ in us.
Christ in you, the hope of glory.
This will be wonderfully and amazingly personal for each of us. But yes, much revelation that continues to come as we meditate on His Word, and meet Him in our hearts, and His Word comes to life in our lives.
I think that because God is so personal, individual with each of us, we all have something to share with others.
For me, knowing my Creator, Who made me because He wants to share His love with me, this so outshines everything else. All the rest, the hidden wisdom, the wonderful truths,
Something that really has touched me in the Scriptures is how God shows how fully He understands me. He truly does!
I am confident that I will spend the rest of my life mesmerized by God's Word.
Much love!
ScottA
Well-Known Member
Apology not necessary, but with that logic you may as well say that God does not pour out his spirit upon sinners. But He does, meaning that logic is incorrect.
The context is "all", not by me saying so, but by God. But the point is, which is greater, the flesh or the spirit? And if spirit, then God, and if God then not just some big future event, but "the same yesterday, today, and forever." Thus, Pentecost was the lesser event, and the greater event is spiritual, not regarding things in the world, but in the kingdom.
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Great posts! Let me start here. The question over if the Greek word ἐσόπτρου should be translated "mirror" or "glass" is crucial to interpretation of the passage, as they communicate two different things. Some favor "mirror," believing the passage relates more to how prophecy helps us see ourselves. Some favor "glass," believing it relates more to how we see others, how we see matters going on in the world, and matters going on with the church at large. I favor the latter, but I acknowledge that the former is possible. I find it very interesting in light of the different perspectives we approach this subject from, and I certainly do think there is importance in what we see as "through a mirror," i.e. regarding ourselves. The Lord greatly encourages me in my own dreams, and they likewise don't just come to me automatically but take some "seeing through" until I finally discern the interpretation.
But now let me add this. It is more difficult to "see through a glass" into someone else's life than to "see through a mirror" into one's own. With your own dreams, you know your life well already, and everything going on in it. You know your heart, and the things that you have been concerned about lately, which you often come to find are what the Lord is trying to communicate to you about in a dream.
But seeing into other people's dreams is a different matter entirely. You have to dig and ask questions, because you often have no idea what their spiritual state is, what their concerns are at present, or even what they actually saw in their dream because they often think they have explained everything clearly when in fact they've left a ton of things out. So you have to pray and let the Lord reveal things that stand out, and when you see something He often leads you to start asking very pointed questions, such as "When you saw this" or "When you felt this" or "When this happened." You also have to ask where they are in their spiritual lives, and ask about other people in their lives who are implicated in the dream. A lot of times people will run off on me when I do that, because the minute I start asking pointed questions about specific issues or people in their lives, they understand the implications, get freaked out, and disappear on me. I've had this happen numerous times. I suppose some might simply be losing interest, but I've had several tell me in private that they were getting freaked out. So I know it happens.
But that's the issue with the two different translations. And while up till now I didn't really show much interest in the translation of "mirror," your explanation is now showing it to me in a different light. So thanks! :)
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Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
Well, on this I would need you to cite a scriptural precedent for me. Now we have the case of Balaam, but even he apparently had a relationship with God despite not being an Israelite. It was his relationship with the Lord that made him a prophet to begin with.
I have to confess Scott that you are one of a couple people on this forum whose theology I have never completely gotten a full handle on yet (Byrd would be another, and God help me with that but all things are possible, LoL). But I honestly don't know that I understand your position here.
So define for me exactly what you believe will be the fulfillment in practical terms of Joel 2:28.
Regardless how you interpret esoptron, I don't see where you get dreams and dream interpretation from the passage.
Regarding whether we should understand this as looking through a glass window, or looking into a polished metal, did they even have glass window in that time?
But it was common to have a polished metal to see yourself in. Just not nearly as clear as we have now with glass mirrors.
Much love!
Hidden In Him
Well-Known Member
They used things like muscovite and obsidian. You could see through it, but it was blurry and "dark":
Not sure if this image will post...
Then we come to the next part,
We shall know even as we are known. We shall know what? How are we known? I think this is referring again to ourselves.
I don't that that where God says we will know as we are known, this doesn't mean that we will know all things as completely as God knows us.
But if we are thinking in terms of, seeing in a mirror darkly, but then face to face, then we will know ourselves in the same way God knows us.
And that we therefore don't know ourselves well. And again the context is, what do you want? Do you want tongues? Miracles? Teaching? What you should really want is love.
Much love!
Unless people are really ready, it's not wise to be too eager to see the next stage in the Lord's plans, right?
I actually have a piece of this in my rock collection, about the size of half a dinner plate. Looks just like this, very hard white rock with layers of these sheets embedded in it.Not sure if this image will post...
Cool stuff!
:)
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