Modern Prophets

[marks]

marks,

Thanks for directing me to your previous post.

I'm not convinced NT prophecy is predictive for the following reasons, based on 1 Cor 14:

• 'the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort' (14:3). Nothing is mentioned here about strengthening through prediction.
• 'the one who prophesies edifies the church' (14:4). So prophetic utterances happened in the church gatherings for the church's edification.
  
• 'what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?' (14:6). This seems to indicate prophecy is delivered as a 'revelation' or 'word' from God, but the emphasis is not on telling the future, but on building up of the church.
• 'in the church I would rather speak five intelligible words to instruct others than ten thousand words in a tongue' (14:19). So prophecy is considered instruction by Paul.
• 'if an unbeliever or an enquirer comes in while everyone is prophesying, they are convicted of sin and are brought under judgment by all, as the secrets of their hearts are laid bare. So they will fall down and worship God, exclaiming, 'God is really among you!"' (14:24-25). Thus, prophesy convicts the sinner and exposes the secrets of people's hearts.

• Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh carefully what is said. And if a revelation comes to someone who is sitting down, the first speaker should stop. For you can all prophesy in turn so that everyone may be instructed and encouraged' (14:29-31). Therefore, the nature of prophecy is such that a person can stop in the midst of the 'revelation' so that another prophetic utterance can be given. However, these prophecies must be 'weighed carefully' in the church gathering. There is no meaning to 'weigh carefully' unless it happens while people of the church are there to receive the judgment. Sadly, there is not accompanying instruction as to how church people are to carefully weigh a prophecy. I could expect that it included: (1) Nothing that contradicts the NT, and (2) Any statement about a revelation of what is happening in a person's life must be true.

• C H Spurgeon told of a time at one of his meetings when
  
  Incident [from] the sermon at Exeter Hall, in which he suddenly broke off from his subject, and, pointing in a certain direction, said, “Young man, those gloves you are wearing have not been paid for; you have stolen them from you,’ employer.” At the close of the service, a young man, looking very pale and greatly agitated, came to the room which was used as a vestry, and begged for a private interview with Mr.Spurgeon. On being admitted, he placed a pair of gloves upon the table, and tearfully said, “It’s the first time I have robbed my master, and I will never do it again. You won’t expose me, sir, will you? It would kill my mother if she heard that I had become a thief.” The preacher had drawn the bow at a venture, but the arrow struck the target for which God intended it, and the startled hearer was, in that singular way, probably saved from committing a greater crime’ (C H Spurgeon Autobiography, vol 3, ch 60, p. 59)

• 'Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues. But everything should be done in a fitting and orderly way' (14:39-40).

The chaos that I see and hear in contemporary Pentecostal/Charismatic churches would be controlled if they followed Paul's instructions to the Corinthians.

Oz

Good post!

:)

I liked everything you said! The place where I've seen what I think is valid use of the gift of prophecy is in a more interpersonal way than "prophecy to the nations" or something like that.

Whether encouragement or instruction or even I think prediction, I've been more convinced of what I've seen for myself in small groups. Which also, in my experience, tends to be more, natural, if you will. No theatrics. Just someone sharing their heart which in that instance is the Spirit's heart.

Much love!

 

[Pearl]

I may be living in an alternate universe, but I do not see collapse at all.
Education now is better than ever, medicine now cures more illnesses and understands things that scientist literally only dreamed of. Sequencing human DNA to the extent you can have your personal DNA profiled, stunning, staggering.
Families. The dynamic of women no longer being the property of their husbands, but can live professional lives and have a real career, that is amazing. Abuse is now in the open, with refuges and public acknowledgement abuse is no longer tolerated.
Commerce is now around the world with trade flowing to and from every country their is. Banking is now so sensitive when a collapse affects the global system, everyone can adjust and keep things going, stunning. Media. We now have the internet, which means us, ordinary citizens can get stories and pictures from around the world and issues that matter can now be discussed, literally on line.

Now look a few generations ago, starving on the streets, no social care or support, people not able to read or write, in jobs that exploited them and not empowered them. Food grown locally but very bland and limited, and people moved very little outside their local area. War and going to war was a constant problem, and your children stood little prospect of doing any better than ones own experience.

Now judgements, the black death, wiping out 30 to 60% of populations, famines that decimated whole communities, of 6 children you had 2 would make it to adulthood, and as a woman you would die in childbirth, and as a man, in war or some accident.

I wonder what people regard as prophecy and hard times. We live in a golden age, an age similar to heaven, where all our needs are met, and we can choose our options. What a privilege.

Ok, well we obviously see things differently.

 

[marks]

C H Spurgeon told of a time at one of his meetings when

Incident [from] the sermon at Exeter Hall, in which he suddenly broke off from his subject, and, pointing in a certain direction, said, “Young man, those gloves you are wearing have not been paid for; you have stolen them from you,’ employer.” At the close of the service, a young man, looking very pale and greatly agitated, came to the room which was used as a vestry, and begged for a private interview with Mr.Spurgeon. On being admitted, he placed a pair of gloves upon the table, and tearfully said, “It’s the first time I have robbed my master, and I will never do it again. You won’t expose me, sir, will you? It would kill my mother if she heard that I had become a thief.” The preacher had drawn the bow at a venture, but the arrow struck the target for which God intended it, and the startled hearer was, in that singular way, probably saved from committing a greater crime’ (C H Spurgeon Autobiography, vol 3, ch 60, p. 59)

I would think of this more as a word of knowledge given to Spurgeon to bring the young man into the light.

Much love!

 

[marks]

HIH,

My understanding is that the 'transition' came about on the Day of Pentecost (see Acts 2:17-21).

However the supernatural events of Day of Pentecost regarding tongues and prophesy are quite different to 1 Cor 12-14.

Oz

The Spirit was with men, was upon men, but until Pentecost, excepting the 11, the Spirit was not in them. And that is a very dramatic change indeed!

Much love!

 

[marks]

I may be living in an alternate universe, but I do not see collapse at all.
Education now is better than ever, medicine now cures more illnesses and understands things that scientist literally only dreamed of. Sequencing human DNA to the extent you can have your personal DNA profiled, stunning, staggering.
Families. The dynamic of women no longer being the property of their husbands, but can live professional lives and have a real career, that is amazing. Abuse is now in the open, with refuges and public acknowledgement abuse is no longer tolerated.
Commerce is now around the world with trade flowing to and from every country their is. Banking is now so sensitive when a collapse affects the global system, everyone can adjust and keep things going, stunning. Media. We now have the internet, which means us, ordinary citizens can get stories and pictures from around the world and issues that matter can now be discussed, literally on line.

Now look a few generations ago, starving on the streets, no social care or support, people not able to read or write, in jobs that exploited them and not empowered them. Food grown locally but very bland and limited, and people moved very little outside their local area. War and going to war was a constant problem, and your children stood little prospect of doing any better than ones own experience.

Now judgements, the black death, wiping out 30 to 60% of populations, famines that decimated whole communities, of 6 children you had 2 would make it to adulthood, and as a woman you would die in childbirth, and as a man, in war or some accident.

I wonder what people regard as prophecy and hard times. We live in a golden age, an age similar to heaven, where all our needs are met, and we can choose our options. What a privilege.

In some parts of the world.

 

[Hidden In Him]

It is not unusual for Scripture to be fulfilled in 2 senses. Take Matt 24 (NIV) where the fulfillment takes place in 2 stages: (1) The destruction of the Temple, and (2) Jesus' second coming.

As per my previous post, I think you are separating out Joel 2:28-29 from Joel 2:30-31 and by doing so are disconnecting them unduly from the intended meaning: That they will prophecy judgments upon the earth, including them speaking forth prophecies that He will show wonders in the earth - blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke, and that the sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood - and then the True and Living God performing them in confirmation of what was prophesied, to manifest who are His, and that the message of repentance they carry is truly from God.

But let's move on to the next quote then.

However the supernatural events of Day of Pentecost regarding tongues and prophesy are quite different to 1 Cor 12-14.

Excellent examples of predictive prophecy in the planting of the early church. How is it that that emphasis is missing from 1 Cor 12-14?

I wanted to get into this with another member a month or so ago, but got unceremoniously brushed off, LoL. But let me ask: How do you interpret 1 Corinthians 13:9-12?

I think I know your answer already because I've read something by you on this before, and fully agreed with your interpretation. But I need to reestablish it here because how you interpret one part of it has bearing on the question at hand.

God bless, and thanks for discussing this with me in advance.

 

[marks]

from the intended meaning: That they will prophecy judgments upon the earth, including them speaking forth prophecies that He will show wonders in the earth - blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke, and that the sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood - and then the True and Living God will perform them in confirmation of what was prophesied, to manifest who His own are, and that the message they carry is truly from Him.

I was guessing that you thought this way. But it's good to not have to guess.

Much love!

 

[marks]

But then why did Peter quote them together if only verses 17 and 18 were going to be fulfilled in his time? The fact that he quotes both parts together suggests there was a correlation between both parts being fulfilled, yes?

I suggest this quotation "bookends" the church age, so called. From the time the Spirit is given to all, until the time for this age to end. It wasn't an event being prophesied so much as a time. Deliniated by these events.

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

It wasn't an event being prophesied so much as a time.

But it was an event. The Spirit actually was poured out, and they actually did start prophesying. The implication is that their sons and daughters likewise started prophesying during New Testament times as well, or Peter's quotation of this passage would have been found to be in error. And he quoted Joel 2:28 all the way through v.31, which implies that the entire passage was being fulfilled together. Peter never delineated that it would come in two separate stages. His hearers would have understood he was communicating that the entire passage would be fulfilled together, presumably in their time. And since it wasn't completely fulfilled in their time, it suggests the entire passage as a whole is going to be fulfilled in our time - the end-times proper - which still lay ahead of us.

 

[Willie T]

Many people think that biblical prophecy is primarily for the prediction of the future, but that’s not correct. Prediction of the future is a significant part of it, but primarily, biblical prophecy is marked by the concern of the prophet for the moral nature of the people. And it’s in that context then that prediction comes. If the people will respond to God’s directions, then the future will be hopeful. If they will not respond, then the future will not be hopeful. So the purpose of biblical prophecy is to call people back to faithful living for God.
(IIIM)

 

[marks]

But it was an event. The Spirit actually was poured out, and they actually did start prophesying. The implication is that their sons and daughters likewise started prophesying during New Testament times as well, or Peter's quotation of this passage would have been found to be in error. And he quoted Joel 2:28 all the way through v.31, which implies that the entire passage was being fulfilled together. Peter never delineated that it would come in two separate stages. His hearers would have understood he was communicating that the entire passage would be fulfilled together, presumably in their time. And since it wasn't completely fulfilled in their time, it suggests the entire passage as a whole is going to be fulfilled in our time - the end-times proper - which still lay ahead of us.

A second pouring out.

Except . . . this part was fulfilled.

Part was fulfilled, and the other part is remaining to be fulfilled. Why the assumption that the first part will be fulfilled again?

How do you know what Peter's hearers thought? You are merely projecting - not what you would think in the same situation - what you think you might think if you were one of them. But you are not one of them. They have a culture and an history and a context that you do not share, and to rob them of that while you insert yourself into their shoes, thinking you know what they would have thought, is not sound Biblical interpretation in my opinion.

They may well have understood just fine that Peter was announcing the beginning and ending of something.

The Spirit has been poured out. He was going on to preach that if the people repented, then Jesus would return, and it's at Jesus' return these things will be seen.

Did the Spirit get "unpoured out" so that He will be poured out again?

What does a second Pentecost pouring out of the Spirit signify? Lack of Holy Spirit? Is the Spirit Who has been pour out into all flesh deficient? I don't think so. What is deficient, I think, is our faith. And our understanding.

But rather, the Spirit was poured out, and the sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the Day of the Lord. Do you see the timing here?

Much love!

 

[Hidden In Him]

A second pouring out.

Except . . . this part was fulfilled.

Part was fulfilled, and the other part is remaining to be fulfilled.

This is the Cessationist position. I thought you said you were not one.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Many people think that biblical prophecy is primarily for the prediction of the future, but that’s not correct. Prediction of the future is a significant part of it, but primarily, biblical prophecy is marked by the concern of the prophet for the moral nature of the people. And it’s in that context then that prediction comes. If the people will respond to God’s directions, then the future will be hopeful. If they will not respond, then the future will not be hopeful.

Absolutely, but prophecy is not limited to matters concerning the church only. The Lord used prophets to speak to the nations as well, and that they needed to turn from sin lest they incur His wrath and judgment.

Some take the position that "prophets to the nations" have somehow ceased, which I find to be the oddest thing in the world. Why on earth would the Lord show great concern for the nations and their repentance during Old Testament times, but now leave them simply blowing in the wind because He no longer uses any "prophets to the nations"?

 

[Heart2Soul]

A second pouring out.

Except . . . this part was fulfilled.

Part was fulfilled, and the other part is remaining to be fulfilled. Why the assumption that the first part will be fulfilled again?

How do you know what Peter's hearers thought? You are merely projecting - not what you would think in the same situation - what you think you might think if you were one of them. But you are not one of them. They have a culture and an history and a context that you do not share, and to rob them of that while you insert yourself into their shoes, thinking you know what they would have thought, is not sound Biblical interpretation in my opinion.

They may well have understood just fine that Peter was announcing the beginning and ending of something.

The Spirit has been poured out. He was going on to preach that if the people repented, then Jesus would return, and it's at Jesus' return these things will be seen.

Did the Spirit get "unpoured out" so that He will be poured out again?

What does a second Pentecost pouring out of the Spirit signify? Lack of Holy Spirit? Is the Spirit Who has been pour out into all flesh deficient? I don't think so. What is deficient, I think, is our faith. And our understanding.

But rather, the Spirit was poured out, and the sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the Day of the Lord. Do you see the timing here?

Much love!

There is different anointings of the outpour of the Holy Spirit.....the rain, the oil, the fire and glory.

 

[Willie T]

Absolutely, but prophecy is not limited to matters concerning the church only. The Lord used prophets to speak to the nations as well, and that they needed to turn from sin lest they incur His wrath and judgment.

Some take the position that "prophets to the nations" have somehow ceased, which I find to be the oddest thing in the world. Why on earth would the Lord show great concern for the nations and their repentance during Old Testament times, but now leave them simply blowing in the wind because He no longer uses any "prophets to the nations"?

Yeah, it does seem this passage was meant for all time:

If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it (Jeremiah 18:7-10).

 

[marks]

This is the Cessationist position. I thought you said you were not one.

From Wikipedia:

Cessationism versus continuationism involves a Christian theological dispute as to whether spiritual gifts remain available to the church, or whether their operation ceased with the Apostolic Age of the church (or soon thereafter). The cessationist doctrine arose in the Protestant Reformation, initially in response to claims of Roman Catholic miracles. Modern discussions focus more on the use of charismatic gifts in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements.

Cessationism is a Protestant doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. Reformers such as John Calvin originated this view. More recent development has tended to focus on other spiritual gifts too, owing to the advent of Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement that have popularised a radical continuationism – the position that the spiritual gifts are meant for all Christians in every age.

Continuationism is a Christian theological belief that the spiritual gifts have continued to the present age, specifically those sometimes called[by whom?] "sign gifts",[1] such as tongues and prophecy. Continuationism as a distinct theological position arose in opposition to cessationism.[citation needed]

Cessationism versus continuationism - Wikipedia

Being "continuationist" is not the same as subscribing to "latter rain", that sort of thing. Different things.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Some take the position that "prophets to the nations" have somehow ceased, which I find to be the oddest thing in the world. Why on earth would the Lord show great concern for the nations and their repentance during Old Testament times, but now leave them simply blowing in the wind because He no longer uses any "prophets to the nations"?

Hasn't God shown greater care for the nations of the world in Christ?

Much love!

 

[marks]

There is different anointings of the outpour of the Holy Spirit.....the rain, the oil, the fire and glory.

You know me . . . do you have any particular passages in mind?

:)

 

[Willie T]

From Wikipedia:

Cessationism versus continuationism involves a Christian theological dispute as to whether spiritual gifts remain available to the church, or whether their operation ceased with the Apostolic Age of the church (or soon thereafter). The cessationist doctrine arose in the Protestant Reformation, initially in response to claims of Roman Catholic miracles. Modern discussions focus more on the use of charismatic gifts in the Pentecostal and Charismatic movements.

Cessationism is a Protestant doctrine that spiritual gifts such as speaking in tongues, prophecy and healing ceased with the Apostolic Age. Reformers such as John Calvin originated this view. More recent development has tended to focus on other spiritual gifts too, owing to the advent of Pentecostalism and the Charismatic movement that have popularised a radical continuationism – the position that the spiritual gifts are meant for all Christians in every age.

Continuationism is a Christian theological belief that the spiritual gifts have continued to the present age, specifically those sometimes called[by whom?] "sign gifts",[1] such as tongues and prophecy. Continuationism as a distinct theological position arose in opposition to cessationism.[citation needed]

Cessationism versus continuationism - Wikipedia

Being "continuationist" is not the same as subscribing to "latter rain", that sort of thing. Different things.

Much love!

Is "Latter Rain" supposed to be one of those heretical trigger-words that strikes foreboding in our hearts?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yeah, it does seem this passage was meant for all time:

If at any time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be uprooted, torn down and destroyed, and if that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned. And if at another time I announce that a nation or kingdom is to be built up and planted, and if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it (Jeremiah 18:7-10).

Wonderful passage.

I don't understand the position, quite frankly. I'm inclined to believe there must be something behind it, but I have yet to have anyone explain it to me.