Regeneration before or after saving faith

[Paul Christensen]

Why? If you are irresistibly caused to come or passed by, why would you do anything? In that case, God does it all. I need not ask for anything.

But the Holy Spirit says through James that if you don't ask, you won't receive. And the Holy Spirit said through Paul, "Be not anxious for anything but by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God" (Philippians 4:6-7).

Also it is the same Holy Spirit who said through John, "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). This means that the invitation to believe in Christ is given to all, as supported by what Jesus Himself said: "Come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28).

It is significant that the only place where the word "predestined" is used is this verse: "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters" (Romans 8:29).
And, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).
Neither of these verses speak of anyone being deliberately predestined to either heaven or hell, because it would make the open invitation by God to believe the gospel and come to Christ a lie, and God does not lie. "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Numbers 23:19).

 

[Paul Christensen]

God uses many verses to speak of this...so great salvation.
There are times I can split hairs, there are times I can see it the way an artist puts a a painting together. God is the author and finisher of faith... We are saved by, or through faith in scripture...never BECAUSE of faith.

True. The verse says that we are saved...through faith, not because of it. We are saved through our acceptance and personal commitment to the finished work of Christ on Calvary.

 

[Dcopymope]

I do not skip over anything and neither does any Calvinist need to.

.......You can say you didn't......doesn't change the fact that you did.

 

[Giuliano]

That is not what the passage refers to. It speaks of the unseen work of the Spirit...it cannot be seen, but you see the results of His regenerating work.

I assume you have read the Bible, but apparently you have trouble remembering what you read.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I repeat once more that Ezekiel could move like this. If you cannot move like that, then you may have been born of water but not of the Spirit yet.

Was John born of the Spirit? I'd say so. He heard the sound of a trumpet and got called up into Heaven. Yes, his physical body remained on the earth.

 

[SovereignGrace]

But the Holy Spirit says through James that if you don't ask, you won't receive. And the Holy Spirit said through Paul, "Be not anxious for anything but by prayer and supplication, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God" (Philippians 4:6-7).

Also it is the same Holy Spirit who said through John, "God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life" (John 3:16). This means that the invitation to believe in Christ is given to all, as supported by what Jesus Himself said: "Come unto me all who are weary and heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matthew 11:28).

It is significant that the only place where the word "predestined" is used is this verse: "For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters" (Romans 8:29).
And, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them" (Ephesians 2:10).
Neither of these verses speak of anyone being deliberately predestined to either heaven or hell, because it would make the open invitation by God to believe the gospel and come to Christ a lie, and God does not lie. "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" (Numbers 23:19).

James was writing to believers. Paul also wrote to believers. They are urging believers to call upon the Lord through prayer.

Again, the word 'world' does not mean everybody whoever lived my friend. In Psalms 5 we can read(I was actually reading through Psalms this evening :) )The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity. You destroy those who speak falsehood; The LORD abhors the man of bloodshed and deceit.[Psalms 5:5-6] So, obviously God does hate certain ppl, so He does not love everybody w/o exception while at the same time hate certain ppl. That makes God wishy-washy. The vessels of mercy and wrath tells us this truth, too, in Romans 9.

Sure this speaks to God predestining ppl to heaven. Those He foreknew, He also did predestine to be conformed to the image of His Son. That is called sanctification. You cannot say that God does not predestine anyone to anyone to be saved, and then turn around and say that He predestines them to sanctification, as sanctification is one part of salvation. And those He predestined, He also called. Those He called, He also justified. And those He justified, He also glorified. There is a clear linkage here. Those predestined are also glorified. And this involves being predestined unto salvation.

As far as believing the gospel, even the ability to believe is a gift of God. “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.”[John 6:29] And also For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake,[Philippians 1:29] :)

 

[SovereignGrace]

True. The verse says that we are saved...through faith, not because of it. We are saved through our acceptance and personal commitment to the finished work of Christ on Calvary.

And even faith is a gift of God my friend. God does not do His part + you do your part = saved. That equation is not found in the bible. Either salvation is 100% God's doing or it is not. If it is a collaborative effort, then salvation is not of the Lord. That would be salvation acquired by man's effort + God's effort. Again, that equation is not found in the bible.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

.......You can say you didn't......doesn't change the fact that you did.

Do not be childish, I was not intending to write a commentary on the whole book of Isaiah

 

[Dcopymope]

Do not be childish, I was not intending to write a commentary on the whole book of Isaiah

......No one is asking for commentary on scripture, just honesty when interpreting it...for once. If that's childish, then what does that make your personal interpretation, that only works when scripture is taken out of context?

 

[SovereignGrace]

I would like to see that conversation. I think you are twisting what actually happened.

It was on another site. I witnessed it, too. Dr. Leighton Flowers said knowing the Christ was a personal achievement.

 

[Candidus]

God does not view infants as being innocent, but dead in Adam. Proof? You got it!


Then Samuel said to Saul, “The LORD sent me to anoint you as king over His people, over Israel; now therefore, listen to the words of the LORD. Thus says the LORD of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.’”[1 Samuel 3:1-3]

Right here God has commanded Saul, through Samuel, to completely wipe the Amalekites from the face of the earth. Even those babies that are breastfeeding, he was commanded to kill. God would not command a baby to be killed if He deemed it innocent in His sight.

How youse guise and how God views babies are completely different. Babies are under His wrath as well.[John 3:36, Romans 3:23, Romans 6:23, Ephesians 2:3, &c.]

Where did I claim that they were "innocent"? And you showed zero proof that they are guilty of sin! It is not a Biblical answer to claim that there are no infants in heaven because they need feeding and care. Circular Calvinism is no proof of that. The passage you give says nothing about God sending infants to Hell... does it!

According to you, John 3:36 condemns every child to an eternal Hell if they cannot understand, believe in the Son and obey Him. What kind of "god" damns people to Hell for what he made them incapable of doing? A sad "theology" indeed!
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." Romans 3:23. Did Paul write this to infants who cannot read or understand his words? So much for Context!
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. But this is not speaking of physical death., but spiritual death. The gift of Eternal Life does not stop physical death. This does nothing for your argument.
Ephesians 2:3 speaks of people who "formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging in the desires of the flesh and of the mind..." What proof do you have that children have "indulged" is such lusts of the flesh and mind? Are not adults "children of wrath"? Or does such bad theology demand that adults are not considered in this passage?

David's son died at seven days. 2 Samuel 12:22 has David saying, "But now that he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me." Yes, David believed that he would be united with his son when he died. Was David's hope that he would be eternally separated from God to be with his infant son that you say cannot be in heaven?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Where did I claim that they were "innocent"? And you showed zero proof that they are guilty of sin! It is not a Biblical answer to claim that there are no infants in heaven because they need feeding and care. Circular Calvinism is no proof of that. The passage you give says nothing about God sending infants to Hell... does it!

According to you, John 3:36 condemns every child to an eternal Hell if they cannot understand, believe in the Son and obey Him. What kind of "god" damns people to Hell for what he made them incapable of doing? A sad "theology" indeed!
"For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God..." Romans 3:23. Did Paul write this to infants who cannot read or understand his words? So much for Context!
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 6:23. But this is not speaking of physical death., but spiritual death. The gift of Eternal Life does not stop physical death. This does nothing for your argument.
Ephesians 2:3 speaks of people who "formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging in the desires of the flesh and of the mind..." What proof do you have that children have "indulged" is such lusts of the flesh and mind? Are not adults "children of wrath"? Or does such bad theology demand that adults are not considered in this passage?

David's son died at seven days. 2 Samuel 12:22 has David saying, "But now that he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me." Yes, David believed that he would be united with his son when he died. Was David's hope that he would be eternally separated from God to be with his infant son that you say cannot be in heaven?

You are posting with your emotions and not scripture. The bible is silent about the whereabouts of infants upon death. David was talking about going to be buried with his son. In Psalms he speaks of himself being born sinful. In fact, he even confesses he was conceived in sin, and was brought forth in iniquity[Psalms 51:5]. Then in Psalms 58:3-5 he speaks of how the wicked come forth from the womb sinful. He is not going to write that then contradict himself later and say that babies upon death are ushered straight into heaven. You are making a case for abortion to actually be a good thing. Just abort all babies and populate heaven. That would be more humane than letting them grow up to this mythical 'age of accountability', then dying later and going to hell.

Again, in 1 Samuel 15:1-3, God commands Saul, through Samuel, to completely wipe out the Amalekites. Even the infants and children were to be slaughtered. God does not view babies like we do. Babies are born dead in Adam.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

What passage it Titus? I must have missed that post.

Sorry that was a passage to counter a Catholic trying to shove faith plus works,

notice no one countered my little romans discussion, that and others taken in context.. just can not see it your way

 

[Eternally Grateful]

David's son died at seven days. 2 Samuel 12:22 has David saying, "But now that he has died; why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me." Yes, David believed that he would be united with his son when he died. Was David's hope that he would be eternally separated from God to be with his infant son that you say cannot be in heaven?

yet another passage we can add to sho why we can not come to the fatalistic view of God and scripture

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The OT verses were speaking of the physical descendants, the nations.
In Romans 9 Paul is not quoting either passage. Instead he is explaining why one Israelite gets saved , and one does not. Here he speaks of individual election.

He uses two words...one for physical descendants..[sperma]...one for spiritual children of promise..[teknon].
Look it up, and learn frpm the passage itself.

No Paul can not take a passage out of context. You quote a passage to remind people of what the author said

this was used to prove Israel was not chosen because of the will of man, but the will of god, before the child did one righteous act.

while yes, he also argued that people are not saved by birth, he made many arguments in this passage. We need to answer and respond to all of them..personal salvation is not the purpose of romans 9

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You are being offered some help, a bit of correction...take advantage of that.

What if I am offering som help, and some correction.

maybe you should take advantage of that


Although that would sound arrogant on my part, so I would rather just keep discussing the word?(hint)

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I would like to see that conversation. I think you are twisting what actually happened.

No twisting at all. That you'd defend him shows your errors to be his errors as well. Ever notice how both of you have such an aversion to giving God all the glory? Anytime we put up biblically laden responses giving God all the glory in salvation your retort back is to rob God of all the glory and give it to you? It is the entire objective of your response.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Why would I not believe a brother in Christ?

Um. Maybe because you don't even believe anything biblical we post? Your arguments to defend yourself are inconsistent.

People who knew Leighton as a younger heretic know he wasn't a Calvinist. His straw man attacks on it and ignorance of it are further proofs.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Boom!

It's not difficult to dismantle their hypotheses for the simple fact they do not really think biblically, logically or critically.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

I do not skip over anything and neither does any Calvinist need to.
No man seeks God in and of himself. Gods tells us that. We believe Him.
Psalm 14 King James Version (KJV)
14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

2 The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Those who eventually seek God do so as a result of Jesus seeking out His sheep by the Spirit.
Why is this hard for you to understand...look here;
ezk 34 17 times God says how He will search out His sheep seeking and saving them.
Thats exactly what Jesus does.

Yes.

Ever notice to them "all" always means "all," but not in this passage? The objective, consciously or not, is to glorify themselves as if they were in fact seeking God compared to others who are worse than them, so the passage isn't condemning them at all: it's for others. Luke 18:9-14 comes to mind.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Good question....
God ordains the ways and the means..look in Acts18;

read the whole chapter but look here;
9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

God told him He had much people, not all...God knew who were His;

God did not give Him the names, He used Pauls preaching and teaching and disputing...do you see it???

Paul probably recalled all of this while penning 2 Timothy 2:8-10.