The Ekklesia; called out ones; the Church

[Episkopos]

This thread mirrors the Church
A thing of sheer truth and beauty to begin with until ...... The 'wheat' is gradually stifled by the introduction of more and more 'tares', whereby we are constrained to "let both grow together until the true harvester, who is the only one able to exercise perfect discretion, roots out the tares without harming the tender shoots of wheat".
"Even so come Lord Jesus"

bless you Mike. :) Good wisdom. I find it difficult to stand in truth and yet leave room for people to grow into it....without allowing weeds to have a chance to grow. It's a delicate balance if you know what I mean. We don't want to hurt the weak...but we also want to encourage strength. So the truth has to be said but in love.

But the flesh is always there to take everything the wrong way...the selfish way. The way of self instead of the way of Christ.

But it's all part of the process here in this world. :)

 

[DNB]

Hi DNB, Just a quick comment regarding your selection of verses. Give me a professing Christian who doesn't assert rank, title, authoritarianism, elitism, or impose coercion and officiousness on me, or claim a divine right to hold me in subjection, and I will hear them and respect them...otherwise forget it. They are impostors who ignore the words of Jesus and Scripture:

Mat 20:25-28
(25) But Jesus called them unto him, and said, You know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
(26) But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
(27) And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
(28) Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

1Pe 5:1-3
(1) The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed:
(2) Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
(3) Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

You need to understand Scripture in its entirety. You are amazed that people abuse power? In our society we don't need police, judges, teachers and politicians, and you're going to discredit and abolish the whole office because of the existence of power-trippers? You are unaware that there are bad seeds in every vocation and position, ...they don't determine and define, the efficacy and duty of the office.
You have resorted to emphasizing my typo?

 

[DNB]

Agreed. The organic churches often take a lack of authority too far. Many just despise authority. But it is the character of the authority I believe that is important. God has to be behind it. Otherwise it's just an autocracy.

The reputation of pastors has been so soiled because of the artificial way in which pastors are selected. They are not spiritual selections. And given the platform with microphone and sermonizing...there is no room for the gifts of God to function.

So then the leader must look for actual growth in people...not just preach at them.
Where the Spirit is....there is freedom. :) And the balance is that where the Spirit is...there is ALSO authority.

Thank you, a very critical point that should always be addressed, in regard to such an issue as authority (I was remiss in that aspect). Paul mentions these concerns several times in his epistles.
For, we are all familiar how any form of authority always seems to attract the misguided and power-trippers, and may I say that in such a case, invariably the incompetent (the irony). We all must be aware that, absolute power, does corrupt absolutely.
Therefore, leadership must be diligently and wisely assigned, and continuously monitored.

1 Timothy 3:4-6
3:4. He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity 5. (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), 6. and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation incurred by the devil.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Why would you say that? Paul said....when you meet! We are to follow the biblical instructions. Or...did the church start with us?

To be apostolic in doctrine we need to follow the apostolic instructions...as in the teachings of the apostles. And that is one of the 4 things the early church did as per Acts.

Paul wrote that to that transitional church at that time.
Paul wrote other instructions in the pastoral epistles for the local churches after the apostles were present.

 

[Episkopos]

Paul wrote that to that transitional church at that time.
Paul wrote other instructions in the pastoral epistles for the local churches after the apostles were present.

Where does this come from? Do tell!

 

[Philip James]

God begins a church by calling a man..empowering him and training him.

Hello Episkipos,

Hmm, i have to disagree. God began His Church, by calling, training and empowering the apostles..
These in turn trained, tested and empowered others who were called to serve as elders in the Church.
No one has the authority to begin his own church and declare himself an episkipos.

So then one overseer over a household...which when these come together form the eldership of a city-wide church. And from there an overseer is elected to represent that city...as we see in the early church from early on.

And if one feels called to serve the Church, they must submit to the authority of that metropolitan, for training, testing and approval (ordination).

If one refuses to do this and instead creates another assembly, it may be a church, but it is not the one established by Christ through His apostles...

They went out from us, but they were not really of our number; if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.


Peace be with you!

 

[Episkopos]

No one has the authority to begin his own church and declare himself an episkipos.

Not men...or succession of men as you believe...but by the Holy Spirit.

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

My authority likewise comes from the Lord above...not men here below. All things will be revealed in due time.

 

[Episkopos]

If one refuses to do this and instead creates another assembly, it may be a church, but it is not the one established by Christ through His apostles...

The church is Christ's and HE builds His own church...a church that is not according to the hierarchies established by men and their colleges. So you are trusting in men.

I follow Christ OUTSIDE the camp.

I invite you to do a study on Jesus and John the Baptist who stood outside the religious camp of their day. The religious leaders of that time wondered where Jesus got His authority from...since they...as you...wondered how God could ignore the succession of high priests in the temple.

They saw Jesus and John as false.

But they had things exactly backwards as you also do.

 

[Philip James]

Not men...or succession of men as you believe...but by the Holy Spirit.

Why would one think that it is not the Holy Spirit that operates through the succession of men called to serve as elders for the Church?

Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

My authority likewise comes from the Lord above...not men here below. All things will be revealed in due time.

Your authority? Are you greater than Paul? Have you done this:

I went up in accord with a revelation, and I presented to them the gospel that I preach to the Gentiles - but privately to those of repute - so that I might not be running, or have run, in vain.

Have you submitted yourself and your teaching to the (legitiamte) elders of the Church?
Are you humble enough to accept their correction?

Or do you rather, ursurp the authority of the metropolitan of the Church where you live and presume to be yourself chosen for that office...

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Philip James]

church is Christ's and HE builds His own church

Indeed He does, and you reject its authority at your peril.

Peace be with you!

 

[Episkopos]

Why would one think that it is not the Holy Spirit that operates through the succession of men called to serve as elders for the Church?

people vote other people into office. God appoints people directly. No need to vote. Actually voting is out of bounds.

Your authority? Are you greater than Paul? Have you done this:

I went up in accord with a revelation, and I presented to them the gospel that I preach to the Gentiles - but privately to those of repute - so that I might not be running, or have run, in vain.

Have you submitted yourself and your teaching to the (legitiamte) elders of the Church?
Are you humble enough to accept their correction?

Or do you rather, ursurp the authority of the metropolitan of the Church where you live and presume to be yourself chosen for that office...

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!

The council of Jerusalem is no longer in place. But indeed I have placed myself before the church leaders of the city I'm in...Montreal to pray with them for our city. I was prompted by the Spirit to submit myself to their scrutiny...not as a pastor but as a kingdom worker. (since I am not part of the religious institution)

I was accepted as such by these so that they changed the name of the meeting from..pastor's meeting...to...pastor AND workers meeting. :)

So yes...I have submitted myself to other leaders for proof of message and character. I met with these men for a few years. They were of many different denominations. There may have even been a priest or two over the years.

And I thank you for your concern.

 

[Episkopos]

Indeed He does, and you reject its authority at your peril.

Peace be with you!

That's MY point. :) I didn't call myself into the faith...but Jesus called me personally to follow Him.

 

[Philip James]

people vote other people into office. God appoints people directly. No need to vote. Actually voting is out of bounds.

Elders in the Church are appointed through the laying on of hands of those whith the authority to make such an ordination.
Is God the one who calls men to serve the Church? Certainly. And these submit themselves to the Church for training testing and ordination.
If they are unwilling to do so, should we listen to their voices?

The council of Jerusalem is no longer in place.

Your rejection of the authority of the legitimate bishops of the Church, has no bearing on their legitimacy.

But indeed I have placed myself before the church leaders of the city I'm in...Montreal

If you are truly being called to help shephard the Church in Montreal,
Bishop Lepine is the one you should speak to, to receive ordination.

So yes...I have submitted myself to other leaders for proof of message and character. I met with these men for a few years. They were of many different denominations. There may have even been a priest or two over the years.

'other leaders' who have no authority in the Church, cannot ordain anyone to an office of authority in the Church.

And I thank you for your concern.

Im glad you see my intent is concern for you (and others) who have come to view the Church as 'the camp' that we must leave....

Peace be with you!

 

[Episkopos]

Elders in the Church are appointed through the laying on of hands of those whith the authority to make such an ordination.
Is God the one who calls men to serve the Church? Certainly. And these submit themselves to the Church for training testing and ordination.
If they are unwilling to do so, should we listen to their voices?



Your rejection of the authority of the legitimate bishops of the Church, has no bearing on their legitimacy.



If you are truly being called to help shephard the Church in Montreal,
Bishop Lepine is the one you should speak to, to receive ordination.



'other leaders' who have no authority in the Church, cannot ordain anyone to an office of authority in the Church.



Im glad you see my intent is concern for you (and others) who have come to view the Church as 'the camp' that we must leave....

Peace be with you!

The camp is the religious organization that comes from men. God ordains men directly from heaven. There is only one Mediator...Jesus Christ.

So your ideas are all based on men...not God. You don't actually believe that God is alive and working to do HIS will....not the will of men. I have a much higher calling than from a man. I am called of God.

Don't limit God with your traditions. That's how people missed the visitation of Jesus back in the day.

 

[Philip James]

The camp is the religious organization that comes from men.

And what of the religious organization built by God?

God ordains men directly from heaven.

Perhaps, but elders in the Church are ordained through the laying on of hands by those with the authority to do so.
I find it curious that earlier in the thread you proposed a metropolitan system, yet reject that very system thaf has been operating for 2000 years.

There is only one Mediator...Jesus Christ.

Agreed.

So your ideas are all based on men...not God.

My ideas? Why would I trust my own ideas?
Lean not unto your own understanding

If my 'ideas' are contrary to the 2000 year living witness of the Church, then I am the one in error..

You don't actually believe that God is alive and working to do HIS will....not the will of men.

On the contrary, I believe God is alive and working to guide, guard and correct His Church, as He has done for 2000 years.

I have a much higher calling than from a man. I am called of God.

Were you called of God, you would submit youself to the service of the Church. Until you do so, you are just blowing hot air.

Peace

 

[Stumpmaster]

You need to understand Scripture in its entirety. You are amazed that people abuse power? In our society we don't need police, judges, teachers and politicians, and you're going to discredit and abolish the whole office because of the existence of power-trippers? You are unaware that there are bad seeds in every vocation and position, ...they don't determine and define, the efficacy and duty of the office.
You have resorted to emphasizing my typo?

Your typo was emphasised to good effect, but you have created a straw man with the rest of your erroneous assumptions, DNB.

I don't advocate the abolition of structure and leadership among God's people. I am functional in leadership myself, but too much emphasis on the office over the function is not good. The very translation of the Greek word episkopē into an English phrase that includes the word office is questionable. No mention of the word "office" with its uninspired institutional connotations in this translation below:

1 Timothy 3:1 Qualifications for Overseers
1 This is a trustworthy saying: If anyone aspires to be an overseer, he desires a noble task.
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,…
Berean Study Bible

 

[DNB]

Your typo was emphasised to good effect, but you have created a straw man with the rest of your erroneous assumptions, DNB.

I don't advocate the abolition of structure and leadership among God's people. I am functional in leadership myself, but too much emphasis on the office over the function is not good. The very translation of the Greek word episkopē into an English phrase that includes the word office is questionable. No mention of the word "office" with its uninspired institutional connotations in this translation below:

1 Timothy 3:1 Qualifications for Overseers
1 This is a trustworthy saying: If anyone aspires to be an overseer, he desires a noble task.
2 An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,…
Berean Study Bible

I brought up an extremely valid point, that structure is required or things can get disorderly (big or small gatherings), which was nuanced by marksman and Episkopos, to give it a more comprehensive overview. I wasn't being dogmatic on any given point, but just offering principles that should apply when considering running any type of organization (big or small).

You appear to be talking about nothing more than, abuse of power, or don't confuse the office with the function, ...which, in the case of the latter point, I actually don't see the difference between the two, for the sake of this argument. All the same, ironically, straw man arguments?

Stumpmaster, i have absolutely no idea where your contention lies, plus I entirely fail to see what effect that you pointing out my typo created?
Not that I care either way, but the point is, you're sounding completely off on this matter, in more ways than one, that it's very hard to understand from where you're coming from right now?

 

[Episkopos]

And what of the religious organization built by God?


Perhaps, but elders in the Church are ordained through the laying on of hands by those with the authority to do so.
I find it curious that earlier in the thread you proposed a metropolitan system, yet reject that very system thaf has been operating for 2000 years.


Agreed.



My ideas? Why would I trust my own ideas?
Lean not unto your own understanding

If my 'ideas' are contrary to the 2000 year living witness of the Church, then I am the one in error..



On the contrary, I believe God is alive and working to guide, guard and correct His Church, as He has done for 2000 years.



Were you called of God, you would submit youself to the service of the Church. Until you do so, you are just blowing hot air.

Peace

Thus says the LORD: “Cursed is the man who trusts in man And makes flesh his strength, Whose heart departs from the LORD.....“Blessed is the man who trusts in the LORD, And whose hope is the LORD.

 

[Stumpmaster]

I brought up an extremely valid point, that structure is required or things can get disorderly (big or small gatherings), which was nuanced by marksman and Episkopos, to give it a more comprehensive overview. I wasn't being dogmatic on any given point, but just offering principles that should apply when considering running any type of organization (big or small).

You appear to be talking about nothing more than, abuse of power, or don't confuse the office with the function, ...which, in the case of the latter point, I actually don't see the difference between the two, for the sake of this argument. All the same, ironically, straw man arguments?

Stumpmaster, i have absolutely no idea where your contention lies, plus I entirely fail to see what effect that you pointing out my typo created?
Not that I care either way, but the point is, you're sounding completely off on this matter, in more ways than one, that it's very hard to understand from where you're coming from right now?

No doubt Diotrephes ran a tight, well organised assembly. Today many cults boast of their great worldwide organisation and promote their structural efficiency as hallmarks their being the true body of Christ, but they are as deceived as they are deceiving.

3 John 1:9-12 Both the heart and mouth must be watched. The temper and spirit of Diotrephes was full of pride and ambition. It is bad not to do good ourselves; but it is worse to hinder those who would do good. Those cautions and counsels are most likely to be accepted, which are seasoned with love. Follow that which is good, for he that doeth good, as delighting therein, is born of God. Evil-workers vainly pretend or boast acquaintance with God. Let us not follow that which is proud, selfish, and of bad design, though the example may be given by persons of rank and power; but let us be followers of God, and walk in love, after the example of our Lord.

3 John 1:9-12 Diotrephes and Demetrius
9 I have written something to the ekklesia; but Diotrephes, the one loving to be first among them, does not welcome us.
10 Because of this, if I might come, I will bring to remembrance his works which he is doing, speaking against us with evil words; and not being satisfied with these, neither he receives the brothers himself, and he forbids those purposing, and he casts them out from the ekklesia.
11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one doing good is of God; the one doing evil has not seen God.
12 Witness has been given to Demetrius by all, and by the truth itself; and we also bear witness, and you know that our testimony is true.

On the other hand we have Gaius who opened his heart and his home to Paul and the whole ekklesia as reported in Romans 16:23, and here commended by John.

3 John 1:5-8 Gaius Commended for His Hospitality
5 Beloved, you are doing faithfully whatever you might have done toward the brothers, and they are strangers,
6 who testified of your love before the ekklesia, whom you will do well having set forward worthily of God.
7 For they went forth on behalf of the name, accepting nothing from the Gentiles.
8 Therefore we ought to receive such men, so that we may be fellow workers in the truth.

 

[DNB]

No doubt Diotrephes ran a tight, well organised assembly. Today many cults boast of their great worldwide organisation and promote their structural efficiency as hallmarks their being the true body of Christ, but they are as deceived as they are deceiving.
3 John 1:9-12 Diotrephes and Demetrius
9 I have written something to the ekklesia; but Diotrephes, the one loving to be first among them, does not welcome us.
10 Because of this, if I might come, I will bring to remembrance his works which he is doing, speaking against us with evil words; and not being satisfied with these, neither he receives the brothers himself, and he forbids those purposing, and he casts them out from the ekklesia.
11 Beloved, do not imitate what is evil, but what is good. The one doing good is of God; the one doing evil has not seen God.
12 Witness has been given to Demetrius by all, and by the truth itself; and we also bear witness, and you know that our testimony is true.

On the other hand we have Gaius who opened his heart and his home to Paul and the whole ekklesia as reported in Romans 16:23, and here commended by John.

3 John 1:5-8 Gaius Commended for His Hospitality
5 Beloved, you are doing faithfully whatever you might have done toward the brothers, and they are strangers,
6 who testified of your love before the ekklesia, whom you will do well having set forward worthily of God.
7 For they went forth on behalf of the name, accepting nothing from the Gentiles.
8 Therefore we ought to receive such men, so that we may be fellow workers in the truth.

I agree with you SM, as far as there are those who implement a hierarchy in order to exalt themselves, in one manner or another.
But, that is so circumstantial and one-sided, that you sound like you just simply have an aversion to leadership?
You really sound one-sided?
My point is that, entirely discounting abuse, even in a small group, some sort of leadership is required as all cannot start discussing anything that they want, indiscriminately, without it requiring a moderator of some sort. Someone has to decide on the topic for the day, or settle a conflict of interest or opinion, or may a call on liturgy or whatever, ....
Simply that.
I have no idea what your apparent grievance is to that, without regressing into the elementary principle of, where there's power, there's a potential for tyranny and abuse?