My Lord And Savior Is Not A "SISSIFIED NEEDY JESUS", But HE is a GOD of WRATH!!

[Waiting on him]

What on earth are you talking about?

Exactly.

 

[reformed1689]

Exactly.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

“Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?"
Notice what the rebellious Jew who doesn't like God's plan to bring salvation to the gentiles "

That's not the meaning of the text at all. The context is discussing all mankind; Jews, ROMANS 9:6-13, and Gentiles Romans 9:14-18, thus both are being discussed in the same context and illustration so it applies to all. Moses learned this truth in Exodus 33:17-23, when he said he wished to see more of His glory, to know him and his ways better. God immediately told him he has mercy on whom he wills and is gracious to whom he wills, and in that context many Gentiles just had experienced God not having any mercy on them by his will and purpose which meant not a chance for salvation.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

They also go silent when you give them something that blows their falsehoods out of the water.

Yes they do. Instead of heeding the refutation they give little drive by posts in response meant to demean.

Brother, it is obvious they either don't study Scripture, or they cannot see. It is noted one of them wants to be a miracle worker, a seer, wants to see visions, yet is clueless about the Gospel. In other words it is all about him.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

The Teaching comes from Jesus and the Apostles , it is troubling that you say you cannot believe it.

Agreed, it is troubling.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Believe something because you are ordered to believe it? (Your future is a frightening thing to contemplate.)

No, we freely and joyfully look forward to Kingdom growth and consummation.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Thank you for taking the time to post all that ( which got stuck behind the "quotes" but I still got it all.

Not really just a Calvinist question ..but here it is....

As you probably know by now...I have strong leanings toward what they call -Universalism, (although I hate that word and do not fit into their box. )

I cannot see that God, who set-up Adam and Eve , and placed the 'Serpent' in the middle .... that after doing that ...and knowing they would fall. ( I get that from the verse " The Lamb slain from BEFORE the creation of the world"
Which tells is God always 'had a Plan A '. Jesus.

So, what I can't seem to see that God, after starting this ball rolling, would then allow 90% of all humanity to end up in hell.
I was saved back in 1964 and I have never understood... " God wins, He saved 10% of the world! " Which looks to me like the Serpent wins!!

It's always bothered me.

But probably I am derailing this thread in throwing this in...

Helen, you read post 227.
Did you agree with it?
If you could go over it point by point, then offer scripture where you do not agree that will help make progress with these ideas.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Preacher, your behavior to me is abusive, and you claiming Christ while you do it is... suffice it to say I find it to be very rotten fruit...

Sorry, nothing I stated was "abusive" nor is being sound "very rotten fruit." We are praying, not that you will find the true Christ, but that you're just a lost sheep, and he finds you. That's what the uncreated, eternal Christ does.

Thanks for taking back your "likes" of other persons demeaning comments after I pointed it out. Much appreciated, and I mean that.

 

[Renniks]

Funny how they always miss it, and every attempt to interpret is to get themselves off the hook. "Here, let me make this not applicable to me and neutralize it! Phew, I feel better now!"

Must be strange to believe everything in Scripture is about you.
Why would you think Paul was talking to a reader in the year 2020? Look at chapter three of Romans for a parallel passage.
Paul explains why the gentiles were getting saved, ( by faith) and not the Jews, so it makes perfect sense that he would use a Jewish objector to make his point. Same thing as in chapter 3
" Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!

Also, every place Paul quotes from confirms that God makes his plans according to what man does.
The Potter is not locked into one course of action. And the Clay is Israel.
This is easy to determine by just looking up the old testament verses Paul quotes.

 

[Renniks]

They also go silent when you give them something that blows their falsehoods out of the water.

Still waiting.

 

[reformed1689]

Must be strange to believe everything in Scripture is about you.

Who has argued this?

Why would you think Paul was talking to a reader in the year 2020?

Again, who has argued this?

Also, every place Paul quotes from confirms that God makes his plans according to what man does.

No, God does not make plans according to man. Nowhere is that found in Scripture.

Still waiting.

On what?

 

[Renniks]

Again, who has argued this?

The preacher guy.

 

[reformed1689]

The preacher guy.

No he didn't. Quote it.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Must be strange to believe everything in Scripture is about you.

What is really strange is that was never stated and you're ever seeing things that aren't there. Can you show me where I stated it was about me?

Why would you think Paul was talking to a reader in the year 2020?

Why would you think any passage is for you today? The Scriptures are for us and especially this book Romans by the apostle Paul. All the letters of the NT are for us, and the OT is for us as well, note 1 Corinthians 10:11.

The word is applicable to us today. It talks to all generations, and if the shoe fits, wear it. There are Romans 9:20 people everywhere who have issue with God and his ways, specifically that he can have mercy on whom he wills, and it isn't everyone. That is the point of Romans 9: Note John Gill on this text showing the objection, and that it matters not what "ethnicity" the person is:

Thou wilt say then unto me,.... That is, thou wilt object to me; for this is another objection of the adversary, against the doctrine the apostle was advancing: and it is an objection of a mere natural man, of one given up to a reprobate mind, of an insolent hardened sinner; it discovers the enmity of the carnal mind to God; if is one of the high things that exalts itself against the knowledge of him; it is with a witness a stretching out of the hand against God, and strengthening a man's self against the Almighty; it is a running upon him, even upon the thick bosses of his bucklers; it carries in it the marks of ill nature, surliness, and rudeness, to the last degree:

why doth he yet find fault? The objector does not think fit to name the name of "God", or "the Lord", but calls him "he"; and a considerable emphasis lies upon the word "yet": what as if he should say, is he not content with the injustice he has already exercised, in passing by some, when he chose others; in leaving them to themselves, and hardening their hearts against him, and to go on in their own ways, which must unavoidably end in destruction; but after all this, is angry with them, finds fault with them, blames, accuses, and condemns them, for that which they cannot help; nay, for that which he himself wills? this is downright cruelty and tyranny. The objector seems to have a particular regard to the case of Pharaoh, the apostle had instanced in, when after God had declared that he had raised him up for this very purpose, to make known his power, and show forth his glory in all the world, still finds fault with him and says, "as yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?" Exo_9:17; and yet he himself had hardened his heart, and continued to harden his heart, that he might not let them go as yet; and when he had let them go, hardened his heart again to pursue after them, when he drowned him and his host in the Red sea; all which in this objection, is represented as unparalleled cruelty and unmercifulness; though it is not restrained to this particular case, but is designed to be applied to all other hardened persons; and to expose the unreasonableness of the divine proceedings, in hardening men at his pleasure; and then blaming them for acting as hardened ones, when he himself has made them so, and wills they should act in this manner:

for who hath resisted his will? This is said in support of the former, and means not God's will of command, which is always resisted more or less, by wicked men and devils; but his will of purpose, his counsels and decrees, which stand firm and sure, and can never be resisted, so as to be frustrated and made void. This the objector takes up, and improves against God; that since he hardens whom he will, and there is no resisting his will, the fault then can never lie in them who are hardened, and who act as such, but in God; and therefore it must be unreasonable in him to be angry with, blame, accuse, and condemn persons for being and doing that, which he himself wills them to be and do. Let the disputers of this world, the reasoners of the present age, come and see their own faces, and read the whole strength of their objections, in this wicked man's; and from whence we may be assured, that since the objections are the same, the doctrine must be the same that is objected to: and this we gain however by it, that the doctrines of particular and personal election and reprobation, were the doctrines of the apostle; since against no other, with any face, or under any pretence, could such an objection be formed: next follows the apostle's answer.

Look at chapter three of Romans for a parallel passage. Paul explains why the gentiles were getting saved, ( by faith) and not the Jews, so it makes perfect sense that he would use a Jewish objector to make his point. Same thing as in chapter 3 " Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?” 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result”? Their condemnation is just!

It doesn't matter the ethnicity, but I'll still entertain you.

Jews aren't complaining about Gentiles being saved here. That's not in the passage. What is in the passage? Paul is describing that God is just to judge the world. He is bringing in the theme that all are lost. The person complaining is Paul's way of bringing up arguments that he knew his readers would have, no matter their ethnicity. Which means what? There were both Jews and Gentiles in the church at Rome. They were complaining against God's Sovereignty to judge sinners at will, and that it all glorifies him.

It makes no difference what ethnicity the person is, it's still the same truth, and any ehtnicity can make the same argument that to judge is unfair without giving everyone mercy. That's what you and others do, so, you are the objector yourself as well as others since you complain it is not fair if everyone doesn't get a say.

Paul is showing in chapter 3 that the whole world is lost, and is showing that includes the Jews, who thought they were not lost, and would object about needing to be saved. That's why he says "so every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be guilty before God." Romans 3:19

Also, every place Paul quotes from confirms that God makes his plans according to what man does.

Hmmm. "Every place Paul quotes from...?" Shouldn't be too difficult for you to prove this. Text of Scripture?

The Potter is not locked into one course of action. And the Clay is Israel. This is easy to determine by just looking up the old testament verses Paul quotes.

The entire world is his clay. He calls all believers vessels, vessels that God uses howsoever He desires note 2 Timothy 2:18-26. The house is God's, the vessels are God's. Your failing to use 2 Timothy 2:15.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

The ironic thing here about the truth of Scripture and Romans 9 is this: Some of you (many actually) complain that it is unfair if God doesn't give every person ever a chance to vote themselves into heaven. They cry and complain, and call God a monster, and those of us who believe it juvenile names and demeaning remarks. That's what Romans 9:20 people do, and it happens on here, other forums, churches &c.

What you really ought to do, rather, is ask yourself why in the world God chose to save wicked sinners, any of them at all, in the first place.

Instead you've turned it on its head, arrogantly, pointing the finger in God's face calling him unfair (which is really "unjust") instead of being humbled that God chose to have mercy on some, and give them eternal life, by grace (undeserved, unearned favor).

 

[Preacher4Truth]

Who has argued this?

Again, who has argued this?

No, God does not make plans according to man. Nowhere is that found in Scripture.

On what?

Thanks for having my back against his lie.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

The preacher guy.

I would ask you to discontinue this false accusation. Cool?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Who says God isn't sovereign? But that word doesn't mean what you take it to mean. For example, it doesn't mean God irresistibly chooses some people for salvation. That is why we pray, because praying matters, it changes things, even if we can't understand how. If everything is already set in stone, which is what Calvinism teaches at its core, then nothing really matters. I know that the run of the mill Calvinists in the pew don't really believe that everything is predestined. But when I investigated it thoroughly I found that that was a logical conclusion, and some of the hyper Calvinists are willing to admit it.
There is no motivation to pray in that system. It's fatalism. Whatever will be will be.

Then the Christ and Apostle Paul are fatalists, too.

All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.[John 6:37]

Notice, He said all the Father gives Him, will come to Him. This is set in stone. And these He will never cast out.

This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.[John 6:39]

Again, He mentions all the Father has given Him, He will lose none of them, but raise them on the last day. This is glorification and the goats will never be glorified.

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.[John 6:44]

Again, He says no one can come to Him unless drawn by the Father. This is irresistible grace at work in the life of the unbeliever as He draws the rebel sinner to Himself through the Son. This is divine quickening at work.

And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”[John 6:65]

Again, we see irresistible grace at work. Unless drawn, they can not approach Him. So, you are calling the Christ a fatalist.

And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to becomeconformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.[Romans 8:28-30]

Paul clearly states those He foreknew, all are predestined, called, justified and glorified. That’s why it’s called the “Golden chain of redemption”. All these link together. He hasn’t foreknew everyone. That’s election. Those He foreknew(a Greek verb meaning God actually does something, not merely knowing their existence) are those He elected.

So, you are also calling Apostle Paul a fatalist, too.

 

[SovereignGrace]

If that was the truth, which it isn't, in your system, the only reason I can't accept it is because God has predestined me not to accept it. So having the whole discussion is totally pointless.
I'm well aware of what Dr Sproul taught.
It's fatalism. And it makes God more like the force in Star wars, with a light and a dark side... then the God of scripture. God is light, in him there is no darkness at all.
He doesn't will evil.

None of us are fatalists. Dr. Sproul did not teach fatalism. None have said God wills evil. But He does use it to fulfill His purposes. The most wicked account in the Bible, the crucifixion, God willed it.

 

[SovereignGrace]

God doesn't irresistibly predestine anyone.
You just misunderstand the scriptures.

So they predestine themselves? Gotcha. God can’t do what He wants.