Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

[bbyrd009]

Hi bbyrd,

How far are you thru the bible? You apparently haven't gotten to the part where Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins.

Have you made it to 2 Cor. 2:10 or 2 Cor. 5:18-20? When you have let me know so I can point you in the direction of what the 1st century Christians practiced which is opposite of what you believe.....2,000 years later.

Should I believe what you write or what the men who walked and talked with the Apostles wrote?

Curious Mary

ty mary ill check it out

 

[BreadOfLife]

It indeed is arrogance to assume to know sometimes past... Particularly in the face of that person's own testimony. And here we see an example of it....

I’m not “assuming” or presuming anything about her past.

I am stating flatly and factually – that the Catholic Church did NOT forbid her from reading the Scriptures. That was sheer laziness on HER part. So your phony indignation is just that – phony . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I am glad you belong to a good CHURCH................. BreadOfLife,,,,
But the one I grew up was NOT!

You were not there to see how it was back then................... and a lot more different goofy things !!!!!!
You do not believe me on this .......... So I will not bring up all the other goofy things..........

I wasn’t around 243 years ago when the Declaration of Independence was signed, either but I know it happened.

I don’t need to have grown up with you to know that the Church did NOT forbid you from reading Scripture.

I also didn’t have to be there to know that IF you indeed went to Mass 6 times a week, as you say – they you were HEARING the Word of God being read THREE times at each Mass – 6 times a week during the Liturgy of the word. That is a total of EIGHTEEN Bible readings a week.

Face it – you left because somebody sold you on a “feel-good”, easy-believism message that sounded better than enduring in faith.
You certainly didn’t leave from a lack of Scripture . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

That's weak. You are quick to call everyone else "ignorant"--now the truth comes out. Psychological projection.

What’s “weak”?

The fact that the Catholic Church DIDN’T forbid Grams from reading Scripture – or that I exposed her laziness??

Curious . . .

 

[Berserk]

Nondenom: "Regarding confession, not a single person 'went' to confession. Not a single apostle 'heard' confession."

You ignore the command of Jesus' brother to go to confession in the sense of confessing sins to each other with a view to being forgiven and thus spiritually (as well as physically) healed.
"...anyone who has committed sins will be forgiven. Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed (James 5:15-16)."

You also ignore the apostolic prerogative to forgive sins, sins that would never be forgiven via human agency without confession of those sins:
"He breathed on them and said to them: "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained (John 20:22-23)."

You also ignore the authority to forgive sins vested in the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven bestowed on Peter:
"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and what ever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven (Matthew 16:19)."

Nondenom: "Lastly regarding 'ecfs being so close to the apostles they would teach what was fresh in their minds...' I disagree. In 2 Tim Paul names names of people he knew. People he spoke with and ministered with. 2 Tim 4:10
10 for Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me and gone to Thessalonica; NASB"

On what grounds do you allege the heretical status of the first century Christian works, 1 Clement and the community-produced church manual called the Didache (The Teaching of the 12 Apostles)? Beware of your tendency to pontificate from ignorance. Too many Fundamentalists speak as if the Holy Spirit deserted His church after the age of the apostles and returned to guide His church only in Luther's time. I remind you that Luther dismissed the Epistle of James as "an epistle of straw!"

 

[brakelite]

I’m not “assuming” or presuming anything about her past.

I am stating flatly and factually – that the Catholic Church did NOT forbid her from reading the Scriptures. That was sheer laziness on HER part. So your phony indignation is just that – phony . . .

So do you have any specific date when the church stopped forbidding people from reading scripture for themselves? And when the Bible was removed from the list of forbidden books?

 

[Yehren]

Well, you know how ignorant old barbarians are... and you being such a sharp fellow.

 

[Grams]

OK.......... ALL!

The church I went to was Polish .............!!!!!
So the mass was in Latin and on Sunday ,,,,,,,,,,,,, the mass was in Latin, but..............
He the priest,,,,, spoke in Polish.......
So how much do you suppose us children learned if we did not understand or speak
the language ???????????????????????????????

back in the old day's you did not question an elder " Priest or Nun ",,,,,,,,,,,,, you were a child ,,,,,
so you listen and never spoke out of turn..........

 

[Yehren]

As a child, I knew the Latin used in the services. How could you not?

Mom used to get on my case when the priest said "Ita, missa est."

My "Deo gratias" sounded a little too enthusiastic for her.

 

[Grams]

When your a child and you keep hearing the same stuff day after day,,,,,,,
That you do not understand ,,,, what do you suppose a child does ???
Just ,,,, my class sat and whispered to each other or just day dreamed.......

What would a person or child do........ ? Having to do this six day's a week ??????????

 

[ScottA]

OK.......... ALL!

The church I went to was Polish .............!!!!!
So the mass was in Latin and on Sunday ,,,,,,,,,,,,, the mass was in Latin, but..............
He the priest,,,,, spoke in Polish.......
So how much do you suppose us children learned if we did not understand or speak
the language ???????????????????????????????

back in the old day's you did not question an elder " Priest or Nun ",,,,,,,,,,,,, you were a child ,,,,,
so you listen and never spoke out of turn..........

Not having one interpret tongues is a violation of scripture. Clanging cymbals.

 

[Grams]

Things were so different back in the 1940's .....

A child was told what to do........... and that is that !!! No questions .............

 

[amadeus]

He's quite right. The Church does not tell people to not read Bibles.

This was so when I was an active Catholic, but it was discouraged in the parish where I attended.[ Remember that I am an old man who attended all masses in Latin before the Bible was being read through every three years or so.] Our little town was more than 2/3 Catholic but I never knew of any Catholic other than the priest who read a Bible. My mother owned one but never read it while I lived in her home. I did not own my first Bible until I was out of active Christianity of any kind for more than 10 years [age32].

 

[epostle]

Parishes have not usually had Latin Masses now for over 55 years, but some people are still complaining about it.

 

[Yehren]

Parishes have not usually had Latin Masses now for over 55 years, but some people are still complaining about it.

I kinda liked the old Tridentine Mass.

 

[amadeus]

I kinda liked the old Tridentine Mass.

In those days I was a very sincere altar boy and would never miss mass without a very good reason. As the only one in the family who attended other than special holidays like Christmas, no one was pushing me to go... unless it was God.

 

[brakelite]

This was so when I was an active Catholic, but it was discouraged in the parish where I attended.[ Remember that I am an old man who attended all masses in Latin before the Bible was being read through every three years or so.] Our little town was more than 2/3 Catholic but I never knew of any Catholic other than the priest who read a Bible. My mother owned one but never read it while I lived in her home. I did not own my first Bible until I was out of active Christianity of any kind for more than 10 years [age32].

Like you, I also was a very earnest altar boy who took his service very seriously... And then, as a young 8 to 10yo, knew the Latin mass by heart, but only some of the English translation. The only Bible I every knew of was the big one in the pulpit that priest would quote from on occasion during the sermon. My family never had one. My very devout grandmother never had one. Nor any of her 8 Catholic sisters as far as I know. Nor would I suggest did her parents else she would have it on display. Nor did I ever see a Bible in either of the Catholic schools where I was taught religious instruction. I didn't even notice one in the school library. The first Bible I saw other than the one in the church was my grandmother's on my father's side, a devout Anglican. But this by then 12 year old was scared to touch it in case I got told off. The Bible to my mind was a Protestant thing. Protestants were dogs eating bellies out of frogs. At least that is what we chanted every time we passed another school... So long as there were more of us than them.
I was shocked when told that I needed a Bible after becoming a Christian. Now you can judge if you like. But none of my friends had Bibles either. And when I visited their home, there were always numerous Catholic magazines... Church news letters... The local Catholic paper, The Tablet... Missals... Which I know contained some scripture... But never a Bible in evidence anywhere, or spoken of by anyone. In the fifties and early sixties this was common Catholicism as I knew and experienced it... And I don't think that experience varied a great deal among my contemporaries. Nor it seems among the ex Catholics here.

 

[BreadOfLife]

So do you have any specific date when the church stopped forbidding people from reading scripture for themselves? And when the Bible was removed from the list of forbidden books?

Spoken like a guy who is totally ignorant of history.
Allow me to educate you . . .

Up until the end of the 19th century - most of the world was still functionally illiterate. Most scholars estimate that in the centuries preceding this - up to 85% of the world's population was unable to read or write.

Prior to the invention of the printing press in the 15th century - Bibles were HANDWRITTEN and took YEARS to copy. As such - they were very expensive and hard to come by. Churches would chain them to pulpits to prevent them from being stolen. Some rich educated people would have them translated by their private scribes. This led to many spurious version being floated around with many errors and outright heresies.

It was because of this that the Council of Toulouse forbade the owning of Bibles in the 13th century. They were trying to stop the spread of bad copies among the very few elite who could afford them. 85% of the people would have NO use for a Bible - even if they could afford one.

THOSE are the historical facts - so I suggest you do some homework next time . . .

 

[brakelite]

Up until the end of the 19th century - most of the world was still functionally illiterate. Most scholars estimate that in the centuries preceding this - up to 85% of the world's population was unable to read or write.

Except that in Europe THE LITERACY RATE WAS ABOVE 80% from the mid eighteenth century on, and in the US from the mid 19th. So how do those figures justify the Pope placing the Bible on a list of forbidden books late 1800s?

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Like you, I also was a very earnest altar boy who took his service very seriously... And then, as a young 8 to 10yo, knew the Latin mass by heart, but only some of the English translation. The only Bible I every knew of was the big one in the pulpit that priest would quote from on occasion during the sermon. My family never had one. My very devout grandmother never had one. Nor any of her 8 Catholic sisters as far as I know. Nor would I suggest did her parents else she would have it on display. Nor did I ever see a Bible in either of the Catholic schools where I was taught religious instruction. I didn't even notice one in the school library. The first Bible I saw other than the one in the church was my grandmother's on my father's side, a devout Anglican. But this by then 12 year old was scared to touch it in case I got told off. The Bible to my mind was a Protestant thing. Protestants were dogs eating bellies out of frogs. At least that is what we chanted every time we passed another school... So long as there were more of us than them.
I was shocked when told that I needed a Bible after becoming a Christian. Now you can judge if you like. But none of my friends had Bibles either. And when I visited their home, there were always numerous Catholic magazines... Church news letters... The local Catholic paper, The Tablet... Missals... Which I know contained some scripture... But never a Bible in evidence anywhere, or spoken of by anyone. In the fifties and early sixties this was common Catholicism as I knew and experienced it... And I don't think that experience varied a great deal among my contemporaries. Nor it seems among the ex Catholics here.

I grew up in a city that was predominately Catholic, and I remember Mass being conducted in Latin. I don't remember any of the Catholics I knew ever talking about the Bible. I was a heathen. I could have used a good dose of the Bible back then.