Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

[BreadOfLife]

That is not what you are reading. You read but do not understand.

Paul was not speaking of hierarchy, but of chronology, the order in which Christ gave gifts to men.

As for the church and its authority...it is one body, even a body of many members, but one. Is one part of a body greater than another? Does a bride have more than one Lord? You do not know what you are talking about, nor what He has done, not even in the most basic of terms.

And I have given you several Scriptural proofs of a hierarchical Church - yet you continue to reject the truth of Scripture. The fact that there are Episkopoi (Bishops), Presbyteroi (Preists) and Diakonoi (Deacons) being appointed in the NT is proof of this.

Jesus spoke wisely of people like YOU when He told the suffering Rich Man:
Luke 16:31
“If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”

NO amount of Scriptural evidence will ever convince an arrogant man like you who concocts his own doctrines and rejects the Authority of Christ and His Church.

 

[Nondenom40]

It’s a simple linguistic challenge. I’m showing you how little you understand about languages.

As for Matt. 16:18 – Peter IS the Rock being spoken of. As I educated you earlier -= Paul confirms this by calling him “Cephas” in his letters. Cephas is a Greek transliteration (sorry for the big word) of the Aramaic “Kepha” – which means “ROCK”.
In the Scriptures – there are THREE who are called “ROCK”:
- Abraham (Isa. 51:1
- Christ (Isa. 28:16, Matt. 21:42)
- Peter (Matt. 16:18)
Do your homework . . .

As for Lexicon support for my position – I’ve already given this to you. You keep denying that I have because you argue with your eyes closed.

I told you that Strong’s Greek Lexicon lists the word Heirus as “Priest of the Temple”.
NOT the same as a Christian Priest (Presbyter). I ALSO challenged you to find a nonbiblical use of the term “Presbyter” – PRIOR to the 1st century. Have you done that yet??

You LOST this argument a LONG time ago . . .

Finally - there is no such thing as a “rational” conversation over at CARM.
Matt Slick and his anti-Catholic minions have made sure of that. I took on several of those blind drones for several months and was eventually banned.
You know what the “official” reason was?? “Preaching Catholic Heresy”
If it was truly an “open” forum – then they would be open to ALL opinions and doctrinal discussions.
They simply couldn’t handle the truth. They didn‘t like being constantly defeated so they threw me off.

Matt Slick has been destroyed by the likes of Jimmy Akin and Tim Staples. His CARM site is a pathetic psudeo-Christian farce . . .

No one is booted from carm for preaching catholicism. Catholics there have free reign to cite the ccc, papal documents, ecfs, council's and on and on and on. I'm quite sure you were booted because you can't tame your tongue. They obviously let you spew your hatred here which is apparent regardless of who you talk to. Not on carm.

 

[BreadOfLife]

No one is booted from carm for preaching catholicism. Catholics there have free reign to cite the ccc, papal documents, ecfs, council's and on and on and on. I'm quite sure you were booted because you can't tame your tongue. They obviously let you spew your hatred here which is apparent regardless of who you talk to. Not on carm.

That is absolutely FALSE.

CARM is a well-known , rabid anti-Catholic website. Matt Slick, who runs CARM is one of the louder anti-Catholic voices on the air.

I know of SEVERAL other Catholic posters who have been suspended and eventually banned for defending the Catholic position against the filthy lies spread over there.

Truth is NOT a core value over at CARM – it’s a liability.

 

[Enoch111]

CARM is a well-known, rabid anti-Catholic website.

CARM generally tries to present Bible truth, and Bible truth is also anti-Catholic. So do you think it is more important to support Catholic beliefs or Bible truth?

 

[ScottA]

And I have given you several Scriptural proofs of a hierarchical Church - yet you continue to reject the truth of Scripture. The fact that there are Episkopoi (Bishops), Presbyteroi (Preists) and Diakonoi (Deacons) being appointed in the NT is proof of this.

Jesus spoke wisely of people like YOU when He told the suffering Rich Man:
Luke 16:31
“If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”

NO amount of Scriptural evidence will ever convince an arrogant man like you who concocts his own doctrines and rejects the Authority of Christ and His Church.

The "arrogant man" is you.

You are as the leaders in Israel, the Priests, and the Lawyers, repeating history and living by the letter of the law but not perceiving the Spirit. And as such, you have just announced that no amount of evidence will convince you. So be it.

 

[Nondenom40]

That is absolutely FALSE.

CARM is a well-known , rabid anti-Catholic website. Matt Slick, who runs CARM is one of the louder anti-Catholic voices on the air.

I know of SEVERAL other Catholic posters who have been suspended and eventually banned for defending the Catholic position against the filthy lies spread over there.

Truth is NOT a core value over at CARM – it’s a liability.

Not true in the least. People (not just catholics) are given infractions/suspended/banned for behavior, language i.e. not following the rules. There don't seem to be any here which is i'm sure why you are very comfortable blabbing your hate speech to every poster that disagrees with you. Matt's apologetic against catholicism is biblically based. Find a tract, or paper he has written that has any of the hate you display here on a daily basis.

 

[BreadOfLife]

The "arrogant man" is you.

You are as the leaders in Israel, the Priests, and the Lawyers, repeating history and living by the letter of the law but not perceiving the Spirit. And as such, you have just announced that no amount of evidence will convince you. So be it.

Ummmmm, I’m not the one denying Biblical truth. YOU are.

YOU want us to believe that Christ left a chaotic, leaderless Church – when just the OPPOSITE is true (Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 21:15-19, Acts 1:1-26, Acts 15:1-29, 1 Tim. 3:1-7, 1 Pet. 5:1-4).

YOUR confused perversion of Christ’s Church never existed – not even among your own Protestant rebels from the 16th century on . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

CARM generally tries to present Bible truth, and Bible truth is also anti-Catholic. So do you think it is more important to support Catholic beliefs or Bible truth?

CARM is not interested in ANYTHING other than Matt Slick's version of the Gospel. Truth is as foreign to that site as it appears to be with you.

As for Catholic beliefs and Biblical truth – the Catholic Church is the reason you have the Bible in the first place .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Not true in the least. People (not just catholics) are given infractions/suspended/banned for behavior, language i.e. not following the rules. There don't seem to be any here which is i'm sure why you are very comfortable blabbing your hate speech to every poster that disagrees with you. Matt's apologetic against catholicism is biblically based. Find a tract, or paper he has written that has any of the hate you display here on a daily basis.

I can’t make a CARM disciple like YOU believe me – but there have been MANY along with me who have been suspended and eventually banned simply for presenting evidence to support the Catholic position.

The vulgar name-calling and verbal abuse by anti-Catholics on that site would have them thrown off of ANY other forum.
Slick allows this garbage because he is cut from the same cloth.

I don‘t care if you don’t believe me.
I never expected an anti-Catholic to believe the truth anyway . . .

 

[Nondenom40]

I can’t make a CARM disciple like YOU believe me – but there have been MANY along with me who have been suspended and eventually banned simply for presenting evidence to support the Catholic position.

The vulgar name-calling and verbal abuse by anti-Catholics on that site would have them thrown off of ANY other forum.
Slick allows this garbage because he is cut from the same cloth.

I don‘t care if you don’t believe me.
I never expected an anti-Catholic like YOU to believe me anyway . . .

I don't believe you because its simply not true. Personal attacks are not allowed (as they seem to be here), even divisive or off topic posts are not allowed (which they seem to be here). Youre yapping about something that simply does not happen at carm. You were booted for the very kind of hate you spew here. They allow it here, they don't at carm. You love wallowing in the mire here where you can sling mud at anyone and everyone without a second look from the mods. Not over there. There you'd actually have to tone it down about 100 notches and you'd be challenged to make a sensible argument. Oh they still deny and evade like crazy but they can't sling the mud as you do.

 

[Yehren]

Finally - there is no such thing as a “rational” conversation over at CARM.
Matt Slick and his anti-Catholic minions have made sure of that. I took on several of those blind drones for several months and was eventually banned.
You know what the “official” reason was?? “Preaching Catholic Heresy”
If it was truly an “open” forum – then they would be open to ALL opinions and doctrinal discussions.
They simply couldn’t handle the truth. They didn‘t like being constantly defeated so they threw me off.

Matt Slick has been destroyed by the likes of Jimmy Akin and Tim Staples. His CARM site is a pathetic psudeo-Christian farce . . .

Sorry to hear that. Decades ago, I was a regular at CARM, and Matt and I got along fine. Didn't agree on much, but he seemed like a pretty good guy. Hope he's doing O.K. now.

 

[Yehren]

And as i said earlier, i couldn't care less what a modern dictionary says. What do lexicons say?

Dictionaries are lexicons. I already showed you.

Definition of lexicon

1 : a book containing an alphabetical arrangement of the words in a language and their definitions : dictionary a French lexicon

2a : the vocabulary of a language, an individual speaker or group of speakers, or a subject computer terms that have been added to the lexicon

b : the total stock of morphemes in a language

3 : repertoire, inventory added the DVD to his video lexicon
Definition of LEXICON

If you don't use words the same way as other English-speakers, you're going to be constantly misunderstood and confused. And in the old days, at CARM, Matt Slick was very reasonable about Catholics discussing their faith.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I don't believe you because its simply not true. Personal attacks are not allowed (as they seem to be here), even divisive or off topic posts are not allowed (which they seem to be here). Youre yapping about something that simply does not happen at carm. You were booted for the very kind of hate you spew here. They allow it here, they don't at carm. You love wallowing in the mire here where you can sling mud at anyone and everyone without a second look from the mods. Not over there. There you'd actually have to tone it down about 100 notches and you'd be challenged to make a sensible argument. Oh they still deny and evade like crazy but they can't sling the mud as you do.

Like I said – I never expected an anti-Catholic to believe the truth.

As for what they allow over at CARM – they may not allow personal attacks on each other – but it’s OPEN SEASON on Catholics. I challenge anybody here to visit that site and witness it for yourself.

You Matt Slick disciples are a funny lot . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

And in the old days, at CARM, Matt Slick was very reasonable about Catholics discussing their faith.

NOT anymore . . .

Ever since Tim Staples and Jimmy Akin crushed him in 2 separate debates - he shows NO mercy to Catholics.

 

[ScottA]

Ummmmm, I’m not the one denying Biblical truth. YOU are.

YOU want us to believe that Christ left a chaotic, leaderless Church – when just the OPPOSITE is true (Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 21:15-19, Acts 1:1-26, Acts 15:1-29, 1 Tim. 3:1-7, 1 Pet. 5:1-4).

YOUR confused perversion of Christ’s Church never existed – not even among your own Protestant rebels from the 16th century on . . .

You don't even know who you are talking to--I have no "Protestant rebels."

But no, I don't want you "to believe Christ left a chaotic, leaderless Church" or "just the OPPOSITE", but rather the truth. Those scriptures are true, it is your understanding of them that is not.

Nonetheless, the mess that has actually ensued is perfectly according to His plan--just not as you see or describe it: He did not leave us as orphans, but he did leave us with a sword...which you now call chaos and Protestant heresy. And now your response is to meet that sword of contention with law and authority...and you don't even see that it is the same error of your predecessors in Israel. Their's was a stumbling stone, and yours a sword of contention.

But these are now the times of the gentiles...and now it is you, you who hold the seat of power, who have been stripped bare, you servants who have been blind...just as it is written of you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You don't even know who you are talking to--I have no "Protestant rebels."

But no, I don't want you "to believe Christ left a chaotic, leaderless Church" or "just the OPPOSITE", but rather the truth. Those scriptures are true, it is your understanding of them that is not.

Nonetheless, the mess that has actually ensued is perfectly according to His plan--just not as you see or describe it: He did not leave us as orphans, but he did leave us with a sword...which you now call chaos and Protestant heresy. And now your response is to meet that sword of contention with law and authority...and you don't even see that it is the same error of your predecessors in Israel. Their's was a stumbling stone, and yours a sword of contention.

But these are now the times of the gentiles...and now it is you, you who hold the seat of power, who have been stripped bare, you servants who have been blind...just as it is written of you.

You are correct in saying that you’re no Protestant. Protestants are Christians.
After discussing many topics with you – it is apparent that you’re not interested in Christianity al ALL - only your own warped doctrines.

And as for your vision of what the Church is supposed to be – make NO mistake. It is utter chaos.

God is not the author of confusion and anarchy. He left a Church with leadership (Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 21:15-19, Acts 15:1-29) and Apostolic Succession (Acts 1:20).

YOU chose to reject His plan . . .

 

[Yehren]

NOT anymore . . .

Ever since Tim Staples and Jimmy Akin crushed him in 2 separate debates - he shows NO mercy to Catholics.

Maybe I'll stop by and say "Hi." Sounds like he could use a friendly word. I have good memories of his board and his general demeanor.

 

[ScottA]

You are correct in saying that you’re no Protestant. Protestants are Christians.
After discussing many topics with you – it is apparent that you’re not interested in Christianity al ALL - only your own warped doctrines.

And as for your vision of what the Church is supposed to be – make NO mistake. It is utter chaos.

God is not the author of confusion and anarchy. He left a Church with leadership (Matt. 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 21:15-19, Acts 15:1-29) and Apostolic Succession (Acts 1:20).

YOU chose to reject His plan . . .

Irony of ironies.

You accusing others of "rejection"--you who are a member of "the official church of rejecting God's plan", who chose to revere Peter over the spirit of the Father as presented by Christ--that's precious!

And where God is not the author of confusion...He is the author of confounded language, which you have seriously failed at; and He is not the author of this mess of chaos either--man is, but He did allow it, which He has done for the dividing of the sheep from the goats.

Can't say I didn't warn you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Irony of ironies.

You accusing others of "rejection"--you who are a member of "the official church of rejecting God's plan", who chose to revere Peter over the spirit of the Father as presented by Christ--that's precious!

And where God is not the author of confusion...He is the author of confounded language, which you have seriously failed at; and He is not the author of this mess of chaos either--man is, but He did allow it, which He has done for the dividing of the sheep from the goats.

Can't say I didn't warn you.

Nobody “worships” Peter OR his successors.
The Pope is the “Servant of the servants of God” – which is something a man of your arrogance will never understand.

You are correct about one thing though. The chaotic mess of a leaderless Church is something that God is NOT the Author of. That’s why His Church has always had a hierarchy – as HE prescribed.

As for the Sheep being divided from the Goats –it doesn’t require an “confusion”. It happens when mere men like yourself begin to believe that they are greater than God . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Maybe I'll stop by and say "Hi." Sounds like he could use a friendly word. I have good memories of his board and his general demeanor.

I don‘t know how long ago that was – but the radio debates I am referring to were well over ten years ago - as were his rabid anti-Catholic lies.

My experiences on his site were shortly after that time frame.