I wonder where this might lead...

[ScottA]

So then you are in agreement with Kezar? I know his theories are wrong, so there is no point in you trying to prove that your understanding is correct as well.

Kezar has his own ideas, can't say I agree with most of them. So, No.

But, I am not "trying to prove" anything. You are just wrong, so I thought I would give you the truth. Strange how some take to the truth.

 

[Jay Ross]

As for your "with a possible fleeting presence of Christ" iffy position on the timing of the return of Christ: The scriptures do not indicate "Christ's permanent return to the earth" (as you say), but rather that "I go to the Father", "and if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also."

John 14:1-4: - 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know."
NKJV

The above is your proof text that you quoted from in your veiled attempt to prove what I had posted was in error. It does not provide the evidence that I was in Error, ScottA, but it does demonstrate that you do grasp at straws to try and prove your "prophet" status, but to no avail.

Please go to the corner and continue chewing your cud. We may call you if we want you to enlighten us.

 

[Giuliano]

You're welcome, but I'm concerned about where you stand with mysticism, which I believe offers a counterfeit to the power and gifts that the Holy Spirit works in and through believers. What do you think about this? (Not meaning to be too nosy.)

That may depend on how we define "mysticism." If you knew me better, you might call me a mystic. I have been skeptical about my own mystical experiences. Many people are not; but then again many Christians are not skeptical about their religion. Just think about it. Protestants and Catholics killing each other by the millions. Both sides were convinced they were right and being led by God.

Or take the Spanish Inquisition. What's scary about that to me is that there is a kind of logic to it. If you believed you could save someone from burning in hell eternally by torturing him until he agreed with your religious beliefs, you might call it "loving" to torture him. So he suffered for a while by torture -- but it saved him from eternal damnation.

Take the many denominations too. Can they all be right? Of course not. Maybe one is, maybe none is. Most people haven't had visions or revelations of their own. Most of the time, people have vague feelings about things and attribute it to the Holy Spirit.

I've been in churches too that gave me the creeps at times. The people in them thought the Holy Spirit was moving. In one church (I'd rather not name the denomination), I saw a demon hovering in the air. No one else saw it, of course. I prayed, and it went away. Then it came back. I did it again; and when it returned again, I realized people wanted it there.

My bottom line is always about love. Is this church or is this practice helping people become more loving in their daily lives?

You're interested in the LDS, so let me discuss Joseph Smith's alleged "first" vision when two figures appeared to him. (This is the usual story, there were different versions.) They identified themselves as God the Father and Jesus. Would you believe such a vision if you had it? I would not. Smith did however. That by itself could be deemed harmless perhaps; but we see how he set himself up as a prophet. Then things took a bad turn. I don't think I need to tell you about the violence Smith advocated or about the dishonest bank he set up. The "tree" was bearing "bad" fruit. Yet he persisted, and his followers remained loyal.

People often tend to have visions that support the beliefs they had beforehand. Swedenborg did, that's for sure. Some Catholics saw and heard what they expected when they had visions of Mary. I'm not saying they were all fooled; but I think some were. Again, you need to check the fruit of the tree.

I don't see much difference between mysticism and what so many think is the Holy Spirit. People can go astray either way. I look to see if pride or greed is at work. To be sure, my "best" mystical experiences were those where I learned I was wrong about something or where I had a flaw pointed out to me gently for my own good.

Remember too that Jesus said he had sheep in other folds; and some of those sheep may not call themselves Christians but they still obey his commandments. Paul also said the Gospel had been preached already to every creature. God can work in hidden ways.

 

[Giuliano]

Yeah, like the "in God we trust" on money with a pyramid and all-seeing eye in the capstone ;) (to clarify, that's their god, not our Jesus/God).

The evil ones love calling their god, "God"...extra points when spoken, cause there's no capitalization or lack thereof in verbal communication - sweet sweet confusion!

It may depend on whether you see Jesus as only a foundation stone -- or if you see him also as the capstone, the finishing stone. Biblical scholars debate that sometimes; but I see him as both.

God has many eyes that roam the earth. . . .

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I think you misunderstand what the thread was based on. It is not about occultism per se, being taught in schools. It that the curriculums were designed by occultists to bring about a specific new age result in preparation for the occult expectation of the cosmic Christ.
New age people are in agreement with edoteric societies such as Freemasonry and they find common ground in global governance. This isn't a new thing. It began in the late 19th century in the US when Rockefeller financed a new educational system making it compulsory, and introducing European ideas that originated with Jesuit philosophy in Austria.
The new age occultists, bent on religious unity through ecumenism and the UN, had certain goals which they wanted to implement through education.
Removal of parental authority.
Destruction of patriotism.
Remove all erroneous ideas in the young gained from parents...(Compylsory pre school education at age 3 in Britain)

So not openly occult ideas being taught... But the idea of global citizenry and inclusiveness of everyone, with penalties for those who choose to remain separate. Home schooling is really the last bastion of free individualism... But even that is under attack.

This is pretty much how things have happened in the schools. I had commented in the Freemasonry thread that I believe some form of mysticism will serve as basis for the antichrist's one-world religion. The devil has managed to insert an element of this occult belief system in every major religion--Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism. How convenient!

New Age philosophy is the latest round of mysticism and is being thrust into the schools in many different ways. One of the old self-esteem programs that I researched in the early 90s was steeped in New Age thinking. The name of this curriculum was "Pumsy," and it was used in many elementary schools across the U.S. at one point. Pumsy is a dragon puppet. In this curriculum, the teacher has the children literally chant this phrase: "I am me, and I am enough." Really? Without God, we're enough?? I have read that New Agers chant "Be still and know that I am God," meaning that they think THEY are God.

Also, in the "Pumsy" curriculum the children are instructed to lie down and clear their "muddy mind." Back in the day, I read an article by a psychologist who was concerned that the steps the teacher led the children through was a form of hypnosis. I believe that hypnosis opens a person to demonic influence. I base this thinking on personal experience when I was working on a college degree in psychology before I was saved.

I believe that the end result of any form of mysticism is the belief that the person is somehow God or divine in some way. So, the original temptation to "be like God" is at work here. As I said in the other thread, as Christians, we "partake of the divine nature," but we never become God in any way.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

That may depend on how we define "mysticism." If you knew me better, you might call me a mystic. I have been skeptical about my own mystical experiences. Many people are not; but then again many Christians are not skeptical about their religion. Just think about it. Protestants and Catholics killing each other by the millions. Both sides were convinced they were right and being led by God.

Or take the Spanish Inquisition. What's scary about that to me is that there is a kind of logic to it. If you believed you could save someone from burning in hell eternally by torturing him until he agreed with your religious beliefs, you might call it "loving" to torture him. So he suffered for a while by torture -- but it saved him from eternal damnation.

Take the many denominations too. Can they all be right? Of course not. Maybe one is, maybe none is. Most people haven't had visions or revelations of their own. Most of the time, people have vague feelings about things and attribute it to the Holy Spirit.

I've been in churches too that gave me the creeps at times. The people in them thought the Holy Spirit was moving. In one church (I'd rather not name the denomination), I saw a demon hovering in the air. No one else saw it, of course. I prayed, and it went away. Then it came back. I did it again; and when it returned again, I realized people wanted it there.

My bottom line is always about love. Is this church or is this practice helping people become more loving in their daily lives?

You're interested in the LDS, so let me discuss Joseph Smith's alleged "first" vision when two figures appeared to him. (This is the usual story, there were different versions.) They identified themselves as God the Father and Jesus. Would you believe such a vision if you had it? I would not. Smith did however. That by itself could be deemed harmless perhaps; but we see how he set himself up as a prophet. Then things took a bad turn. I don't think I need to tell you about the violence Smith advocated or about the dishonest bank he set up. The "tree" was bearing "bad" fruit. Yet he persisted, and his followers remained loyal.

People often tend to have visions that support the beliefs they had beforehand. Swedenborg did, that's for sure. Some Catholics saw and heard what they expected when they had visions of Mary. I'm not saying they were all fooled; but I think some were. Again, you need to check the fruit of the tree.

I don't see much difference between mysticism and what so many think is the Holy Spirit. People can go astray either way. I look to see if pride or greed is at work. To be sure, my "best" mystical experiences were those where I learned I was wrong about something or where I had a flaw pointed out to me gently for my own good.

Remember too that Jesus said he had sheep in other folds; and some of those sheep may not call themselves Christians but they still obey his commandments. Paul also said the Gospel had been preached already to every creature. God can work in hidden ways.

Hi, Giuliano, I was just posting my last comment when I saw that you had posted. I'm going to respond to your post, but I wanted to let you know that I saw it.

 

[Giuliano]

I think you misunderstand what the thread was based on. It is not about occultism per se, being taught in schools. It that the curriculums were designed by occultists to bring about a specific new age result in preparation for the occult expectation of the cosmic Christ.

I don't know what that means in real terms.

New age people are in agreement with edoteric societies such as Freemasonry and they find common ground in global governance. This isn't a new thing. It began in the late 19th century in the US when Rockefeller financed a new educational system making it compulsory, and introducing European ideas that originated with Jesuit philosophy in Austria.

Freemasonry is pretty much a dead movement. It fulfilled its purpose, and bits have hung on, but it's over. Rockefeller, Jesuits? I don't know about.

The new age occultists, bent on religious unity through ecumenism and the UN, had certain goals which they wanted to implement through education.
Removal of parental authority.

I'm in favor of restricting parental authority in some areas myself. I don't think parents should have absolute control over their children. For example, I don't think parents have the right to mutilate the genitals of young girls. There are areas in the world too where I've read fathers can kill their children if they feel like -- and get away with it. Parents do not have the right to prostitute their children.

Destruction of patriotism.

How far can we push the idea of patriotism? Were the Europeans right when they put their own interests above people on other continents and made them colonies, sometimes enslaving them?

Is the Chinese government right to forcing churches to display Communist slogans and take down religious symbols? Right to put Muslims into concentration camps? All that is being done in the name of patriotism.

Can we justify India's oppression today of Muslims and Christians because its government is embarking on a new Hindu nationalism? There was a chilling story yesterday in the Christian Post.

Hindu radicals livestream brutal attack on Christians to 'make area free of Christianity'

Indian authorities jailed church leaders and their families after Hindu extremists disrupted a worship service, beat individuals, and livestreamed the events on Facebook in efforts to make the area “free of Christianity.”

According to persecution watchdog International Christian Concern, the attack took place on Sept. 8 in the Domchanch villa of Koderma District in Jharkhand state.

Dozens of assailants from the youth militant group Bajrang Dal reportedly intruded on the church service and began verbally abusing congregants before tearing up Bibles, breaking church supplies, and stealing the offering box.

Following the attack, the group’s organizer, Yadav, went live on Facebook, showing off the Christians who were forced out of their house church and onto the streets. In the video, Yadav is seen pestering women about why they attended the service and claiming that Christianity has destroyed the entire district, according to ICC.

I recommend everyone read the whole article. The UN is silent. The Trump administration is silent. Trump says he's in favor of religious freedom? Why is he so chummy then with Modi? One more excerpt:

In a recent interview with The Christian Post, Pastor Samuel, an indigenous missionary working on the ground in India, revealed that Hindu extremists often won’t kill Christians, but they will terrorize and intimidate them, or maim or mutilate them “so they cannot live a normal life.”

“Christians are being targeted by the government; it’s seeking to halt the growth of Christianity and wipe out the church,” Samuel said.

In one instance, Hindu extremists raped the 4-year-old daughter of a pastor in central India because he refused to stop sharing the Gospel, according to Pastor Samuel.

“It’s increasing day by day,” he said. “It’s so unsafe, even for children.”

If anything, I'd say the rise of nationalism in many countries poses a serious threat to world peace; and the UN is doing very little about it.
Patriotism can be a good thing; but it can also be used by scoundrels to gain power by stirring up divisions and conflicts.

Remove all erroneous ideas in the young gained from parents...(Compylsory pre school education at age 3 in Britain)

I'd want to know what ideas they mean.

So not openly occult ideas being taught...

What openly occult ideas?

But the idea of global citizenry and inclusiveness of everyone, with penalties for those who choose to remain separate. Home schooling is really the last bastion of free individualism... But even that is under attack.

We do all share the same world. It's an illusion to think one or two countries can operate solely in their own interests to increase their own money and power and have the world a peaceful place. Think of where the world's refugees are coming from. What caused those problems? Lots of times, problems are caused by selfish countries pursuing their own interests and creating dire situations without caring about it.

Why do Saudi Arabia and Iran face a possible war? Neither care about the people in other countries as they care about controlling the people in their own borders. They don't care how many Yemenis die. Also Iran doesn't care how many Palestinians die, so they keep sending them arms and money. It's in their "national interest" to sacrifice Yemenis and Palestinians while pretending to be their friends. And again, the UN can't solve things.

It looks to me as if the world is lining up for World War III. things look a lot like the way they did before World War I, and the UN is weak and ineffective. I cannot subscribe to the theory then that the UN is about to usher in some new world order. What we really need is a UN that knows how to get countries to mind their own business and to respect other countries' to govern themselves.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

That may depend on how we define "mysticism." If you knew me better, you might call me a mystic. I have been skeptical about my own mystical experiences. Many people are not; but then again many Christians are not skeptical about their religion. Just think about it. Protestants and Catholics killing each other by the millions. Both sides were convinced they were right and being led by God.

I would define mysticism as man's attempts to experience what mystics call a "mystical union" or "ecstatic union" with God using some form of "spiritual disciplines" or practices NOT taught in the Bible. If these practices were a way to experience union with God, the apostles would have practiced and taught these spiritual disciplines to the early church, but we see no evidence of this in the Bible. What IS taught in the Bible is the gifts of the Holy Spirit. I'll address this in a minute.

Paul uses the term "mystery" to describe the union of Christ and the Church, but this is seen as a "mystical" experience by mystics. I see these as being very different. Our union with Jesus Christ is a mystery just as a husband and wife becoming one flesh is a mystery, but we do not enter a mystical union with Him whereby we are melded into Him and lose our distinction as humans. IOW, we don't become Jesus Christ or God.

The "disciplines" used by mystics include practices such as contemplative prayer (also called breath prayers or centering prayer) in which the person chants a word or short phrase over and over, which is similar to chanting in Eastern meditation. Sadly, breath prayers are taught by Rick Warren in A Purpose-Driven Life. In this book Warren also extensively quotes from the so-called Christian mystics.

As I shared in my other post above yours, every major religion has a mystical sect. How can it be that Christianity is lumped in with other religions, sharing a common "mystical" experience, which mystics will tell you is the best way to get close to God.

I've been in churches too that gave me the creeps at times. The people in them thought the Holy Spirit was moving. In one church (I'd rather not name the denomination), I saw a demon hovering in the air. No one else saw it, of course. I prayed, and it went away. Then it came back. I did it again; and when it returned again, I realized people wanted it there.

Like you, I've gotten the creeps in some churches. The devil is always trying to counterfeit the move of the Holy Spirit! So, not all that you see in churches is a genuine move of the HOLY Spirit. It could be a move of another kind of spirit. This is why we need spiritual discernment.

Having said this, it's important not to throw out the baby with bathwater. I do believe that the Holy Spirit still moves in powerful ways in the Church (meaning believers) through the spiritual gifts, which I strongly believe did NOT cease with the apostles as cessationism teaches. That's a whole other can of worms for a different thread. But I believe that cessationism has left a vacuum in the Church which has been filled with mystical beliefs and practices because the power of Holy Spirit has been quenched. So, people are desiring to see God's power, so they seek it through mystical experiences, but I believe that what they find is counterfeit power.

You're interested in the LDS, so let me discuss Joseph Smith's alleged "first" vision when two figures appeared to him. (This is the usual story, there were different versions.) They identified themselves as God the Father and Jesus. Would you believe such a vision if you had it? I would not. Smith did however. That by itself could be deemed harmless perhaps; but we see how he set himself up as a prophet. Then things took a bad turn. I don't think I need to tell you about the violence Smith advocated or about the dishonest bank he set up. The "tree" was bearing "bad" fruit. Yet he persisted, and his followers remained loyal.

I certainly would NOT believe such a vision if the "Father" and "Jesus" are saying anything contrary to what They said in the Bible! Which is exactly what happened to Joseph Smith. I'm curious as to why you didn't explain in the "Mormonism" thread what you're saying in this post. It would be a valuable contribution to that thread. Instead, you criticized me for quoting a former Mormon. ;)

I don't see much difference between mysticism and what so many think is the Holy Spirit. People can go astray either way. I look to see if pride or greed is at work. To be sure, my "best" mystical experiences were those where I learned I was wrong about something or where I had a flaw pointed out to me gently for my own good.

Remember too that Jesus said he had sheep in other folds; and some of those sheep may not call themselves Christians but they still obey his commandments. Paul also said the Gospel had been preached already to every creature. God can work in hidden ways.

As I've said before, there's a HUGE difference between the practices used by mystics and the gifts of the Holy Spirit taught in the Bible and used by believers. These mystical practices are NOT promoted anywhere in the Bible. Nowhere in the Bible are we instructed to chant in order to experience an "ecstatic union" with God like the Eastern mystics do.

And what is the basis for this "mystical union"? It's not Jesus Christ! He is essentially bypassed in the mystical process, and yet, He says in His word that He IS the way to the Father--to experience God Himself. We cannot go any other way--not through some "spiritual disciplines" that are not taught in the Bible. Our very real union with God is through His Holy Spirit indwelling us.

As you can see, I feel very strongly about this issue because I see mysticism as a major tool the devil is using to bring about the great falling away from biblical truth. THIS is the apostasy talked about in the Bible, not what Joseph Smith alleged.

I urge you and anyone else dabbling in mysticism to seriously consider what I'm saying. I believe that mystical practices are very dangerous and lead a person the wrong direction into the enemy's camp, not into a closer relationship with God!
.

 

[Prayer Warrior]

I'm in favor of restricting parental authority in some areas myself. I don't think parents should have absolute control over their children. For example, I don't think parents have the right to mutilate the genitals of young girls. There are areas in the world too where I've read fathers can kill their children if they feel like -- and get away with it. Parents do not have the right to prostitute their children.

Breaklite mentioned "removal of parental authority," not restriction of that authority. Of course, parents don't have the right to murder or prostitute their children! But public schools have been USURPING parental authority for many years.

We do all share the same world. It's an illusion to think one or two countries can operate solely in their own interests to increase their own money and power and have the world a peaceful place. Think of where the world's refugees are coming from. What caused those problems? Lots of times, problems are caused by selfish countries pursuing their own interests and creating dire situations without caring about it.

Are you promoting one-world globalism? Are you in favor of a one-world government and one-world religion?
.

 

[Soverign Grace]

To continue....
View attachment 7306 View attachment 7307 View attachment 7308 View attachment 7309

I've never heard of her Brakelite - is theosophy their Luciferian religion?

I just read that John Wayne was a mason.

 

[brakelite]

Hi brakelite, quick question for you regarding your comment on "global citizenry": around here in the northeastern U.S., a phrase has made its way into the public mindset of "think globally, act locally". Have you heard this phrase around Australia where you are?

No.

 

[Soverign Grace]

Think about it. The "good old days" were an illusion in a way. Men could beat their wives and get away with it. Children could be molested, and nobody talked about it.

Think about some of the horrifying news coming out now about things that happened decades ago. Stealing children to sell in adoption schemes in Chile and Spain. Nuns murdering babies in Ireland. I was talking to my sister last week about her trip to Nova Scotia. How indigenous people were treated there was horrible -- she heard about it first hand. Native Americans and blacks used to be treated like non-humans. Women were treated as less than fully human. Things are in flux, being worked out.

I guess I was pretty lucky I escaped some of the horrors in my youth - until I got older and had to deal with corrupt people; those things happened but at least there was wholesome entertainment being beamed into the living rooms of America - not Miley Cyrus gyrating half-clothed leading all of her Disney Hannah Montana fans astray. Drugs weren't as prevalent - killing 72,000 Americans in one year. Life had its difficulties but parents didn't have to worry as much. My parents let me walk home in the dark from my friends house late at night. It's a different world now. Evil is in your face. I recall in my neighborhood, most people attended church on Sundays. Our local Catholic church was packed to the brim. Not today. I don't know of any of my neighbors who attend church. I read that the Crystal Cathedral closed in CA.

 

[4Jesus]

No.

That's good; hopefully it stays that way, or at least for as long it can.

 

[brakelite]

I believe that the end result of any form of mysticism is the belief that the person is somehow God or divine in some way. So, the original temptation to "be like God" is at work here. As I said in the other thread, as Christians, we "partake of the divine nature," but we never become God in any way.

As I was reading the first 2/3 of your post, I was thinking this very thing, and was going to mention it, and oh, there it is. LOL. YOu can read through much new age material and that sentiment is repeated...you can be god.

 

[brakelite]

 

[Soverign Grace]

Getting back to the topic of New Age and the occult, this article explains various ways that public schools have promoted practices tied to New Age thinking and the occult. Freemasons are mentioned in this article.

The New Age, Occultism, and Our Children in Public Schools​

“Softening Up” For Occult Revival—Hermetic Magic & Hegel’s Dialectic Process

Why would our country, so richly blessed by God, embrace the occult? What caused this drastic change in values? How could it have happened so seemingly fast?!

Actually, the entire Western world had already been “softened up” by the 1960s when the rising rebellion against God erupted into public view. The century-old pursuit of social solidarity based on Georg Hegel’s occult philosophy and consensus process had been an effective tool for change.

Hegel’s 19th century pattern for “group thinking” denied God’s absolute truths and trained people to adapt to “continual change” and group consensus. By the year 2000, it had been embraced by schools, corporations, community organizations, mainline churches, and political structures throughout America. Through the global media, people around the world have caught Hegel’s vision of spiritual synthesis—an enticing blend of spiritual illusions and practices that appeal to our capricious human nature.

Hegel studied alchemy, Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism), and theosophy, which were all influenced by the heretical teachings of Gnosticism. He “read widely on Mesmerism, psychic phenomena, dowsing, precognition, and sorcery. He publicly associated himself with known occultists . . . and aligned himself, informally, with ‘Hermetic’ societies such as the Freemasons and the Rosicrucians” and embraced their symbolic systems of sacred circles, mystical triangles and astrological signs.1
​

To read the rest of this article, click here: https://www.lighthousetrailsresearch.com/blog/?p=17735

They not only have control of education, they control Hollywood. For the truly strong of stomach: http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Disturbing Truths/disturbing_truths.htm

https://thestrangerfiction.com

 

[brakelite]

 

[Soverign Grace]

View attachment 7326 View attachment 7327 View attachment 7328 View attachment 7329

Truly frightening words.

What do you see as a remedy - not going to public school?

 

[Soverign Grace]

I wanted to see something that might back up the things implied in this thread, that occultism is being taught in schools. I certainly agree that some things probably need fixed in our education system, but I doubt it has much to do with occultism.

Going back 35 years students in our public schools were taught to "go to a quiet place in your mind and look for someone there to lead you" - I recall one Christian mother who was on the ball said they were spirit guides. I can't imagine what is being taught today.

My friend's daughter is a school counselor and there are many kids coming in to her with problems - many gender issues and suicidal.

 

[brakelite]