Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

[Yehren]

I'm a little tired of this. I have friends with whom I don't agree on these things, and we manage to avoid insulting and accusing each other. Being Catholic, I don't believe someone is necessarily going to Hell for not being right theologically.

Remember the Good Samaritan. The point of that parable was only incidentally "it's important to help those in need", with the direct point being "it's better to be a heretic who loves his fellow man, than a theologically-correct believer who does not."

Let's take a clue from His words and act accordingly.

 

[ScottA]

You cited what men told you about God.

That is a lie.

 

[ScottA]

I'm a little tired of this. I have friends with whom I don't agree on these things, and we manage to avoid insulting and accusing each other. Being Catholic, I don't believe someone is necessarily going to Hell for not being right theologically.

Remember the Good Samaritan. The point of that parable was only incidentally "it's important to help those in need", with the direct point being "it's better to be a heretic who loves his fellow man, than a theologically-correct believer who does not."

Let's take a clue from His words and act accordingly.

Yeah, you should really stop lying.

 

[ScottA]

TRANSLATION:
"I'm making up this nonsense as I go - so don't make me explain myself."

Consider yourself publicly-exposed, Scott.

Your translation of my words is as wrong as your translation of God's word. Go figure.

 

[Giuliano]

Like I said - YOU sound just like the lying Democrats during this impeachment nonsense.

The only way you can even attempt to make a case is by taking my words out of context. Fortunately, most of the readers here aren't as intellectually-challenged as you are.
That, coupled with your complete dishonesty makes your posts about as impotent as a Nevada Boxing commissioner . . .

Again, take it up with epostle. He's the person who got it out of context when he thought I said what you said. I didn't call him names or say he was "intellectually challenged."

I don't think most members here read this dreary thread. It is rather boring.

 

[Giuliano]

I'm a little tired of this. I have friends with whom I don't agree on these things, and we manage to avoid insulting and accusing each other. Being Catholic, I don't believe someone is necessarily going to Hell for not being right theologically.

Remember the Good Samaritan. The point of that parable was only incidentally "it's important to help those in need", with the direct point being "it's better to be a heretic who loves his fellow man, than a theologically-correct believer who does not."

Let's take a clue from His words and act accordingly.

It is rather tedious, isn't it?

 

[Yehren]

It is rather tedious, isn't it?

Yep. And it's not encouraging Christian behavior. I'm not pointing a finger at anyone, BTW. If I've been less than accepting of other Christians here, my apologies.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Again, take it up with epostle. He's the person who got it out of context when he thought I said what you said. I didn't call him names or say he was "intellectually challenged."

I don't think most members here read this dreary thread. It is rather boring.

@epostle didn't have the same context that I gave you.
Nice try - but you'r as dishonest as they come . . .

 

[epostle]

Understanding Anti-Catholics: a podcast by Scott Hahn

Understanding Anti-Catholics | St. Paul Center

 

[amadeus]

I say there's two kinds: Real ones and phony ones.

Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

I would not allow a Catholic bishop or priests to lay hands on me anymore than I would invite some far out Protestant clergy to. If Christianity is a hospital, I want medical staff that knows they are doing. It the clergy are obviously sick themselves, why would I believe they know how to heal me? I'd be afraid to get a demon if some of these "physicians" laid hands on me.

Few people understand that laying on of hands is too important to be taken lightly:

"Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure." I Tim 5:22

Is this what the writer here calls a principle to be left behind [not forgotten] when a believe is ready to move on toward perfection. To me it means to really ever approach perfection we need to having some understanding first of those 6 listed principles. Does this speak of a transition to deeper things, moving from the 1st principles of the oracles of God, milk to meat?

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of 1) repentance from dead works, and of 2) faith toward God,
Of the 3) doctrine of baptisms, and of 4) laying on of hands, and of 5) resurrection of the dead, and of 6) eternal judgment.
And this will we do, if God permit." Heb 6:1-3

Here then again:

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe." Heb 5:12-13

My old pastor would not lightly actually touch anyone with hands in prayer. Yes, he touched people that way, but only when he was certain that God and the person wanted him to do it. Too many preachers are too quick with the hands.

 

[brakelite]

Few people understand that laying on of hands is too important to be taken lightly:

"Lay hands suddenly on no man, neither be partaker of other men's sins: keep thyself pure." I Tim 5:22

Is this what the writer here calls a principle to be left behind [not forgotten] when a believe is ready to move on toward perfection. To me it means to really ever approach perfection we need to having some understanding first of those 6 listed principles. Does this speak of a transition to deeper things, moving from the 1st principles of the oracles of God, milk to meat?

"Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of 1) repentance from dead works, and of 2) faith toward God,
Of the 3) doctrine of baptisms, and of 4) laying on of hands, and of 5) resurrection of the dead, and of 6) eternal judgment.
And this will we do, if God permit." Heb 6:1-3

Here then again:

"For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.
For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe." Heb 5:12-13

My old pastor would not lightly actually touch anyone with hands in prayer. Yes, he touched people that way, but only when he was certain that God and the person wanted him to do it. Too many preachers are too quick with the hands.

Not long after having received Christ, I joined the assembly of God church in my local town. The pastor sent some young folk to my house for fellowship, which I appreciated. After chatting for a while, they offered to pray for me. Great, thanks I said. Them they all, about 5 of them, gathered round and put their hands on me. I immediately felt a sudden revulsion and wanted nothing more to do with it. I allowed them to continue but was actually praying in my spirit and resisting their prayers... Which were for me to speak in tongues... Of course. I didn't, and they left.
There is great significance in laying hands on people and praying... You become a partaker of the spirit in the person praying. Of you don't know that person... You don't trust him... Have nothing to do with it
I did end up praying in tongues... But not as a result of anyones prayer... And not the tongue I kept hearing in meetings I attended. I have since ceased from using it... Although it is still present with me.

 

[Giuliano]

Not long after having received Christ, I joined the assembly of God church in my local town. The pastor sent some young folk to my house for fellowship, which I appreciated. After chatting for a while, they offered to pray for me. Great, thanks I said. Them they all, about 5 of them, gathered round and put their hands on me. I immediately felt a sudden revulsion and wanted nothing more to do with it. I allowed them to continue but was actually praying in my spirit and resisting their prayers... Which were for me to speak in tongues... Of course. I didn't, and they left.
There is great significance in laying hands on people and praying... You become a partaker of the spirit in the person praying. Of you don't know that person... You don't trust him... Have nothing to do with it
I did end up praying in tongues... But not as a result of anyones prayer... And not the tongue I kept hearing in meetings I attended. I have since ceased from using it... Although it is still present with me.

Doesn't sound good to me. I think it could have done some people harm. I think it depends on the heart of the person. If you had had an impure motive in the heart for wanting them to pray for you, you might not have felt revulsion.

 

[Marymog]

The point of that parable was only incidentally "it's important to help those in need", with the direct point being "it's better to be a heretic who loves his fellow man, than a theologically-correct believer who does not."

Hi Yehren,

I get the gist of what you are saying. Here is another way to look at it.

That parable speaks of physically helping someone in need in that moment in time. Speaking the truth about Scripture is helping a person spiritually for eternity.

Sooooo wouldn't it be true when I teach the truth of Scripture I am helping those in need for eternity? Not just for that one moment in time.

Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

Your translation of my words is as wrong as your translation of God's word. Go figure.

I don’t translate God’s word.

I simply parrot the teachings of Christ’s 2000-year-old Church, which was led by the Holy Spirit to the truth of the Word of God. That was a guarantee from Christ himself (John 16:12-15).

On the other hand - YOUR words are your own . . .

 

[ScottA]

I don’t translate God’s word.

I simply parrot the teachings of Christ’s 2000-year-old Church, which was led by the Holy Spirit to the truth of the Word of God. That was a guarantee from Christ himself (John 16:12-15).

On the other hand - YOUR words are your own . . .

You can't even say what you just said without interpreting in error.

On the other hand, I didn't use my own words, but explained God's word in the manner of the Holy Spirit, rather than that of the flesh and of men whom you follow. It's that simple. "The flesh profits nothing."

 

[Yehren]

I get the gist of what you are saying. Here is another way to look at it.

That parable speaks of physically helping someone in need in that moment in time. Speaking the truth about Scripture is helping a person spiritually for eternity.

Sooooo wouldn't it be true when I teach the truth of Scripture I am helping those in need for eternity? Not just for that one moment in time.

That's what the Great Commission is all about. But remember what Jesus said about those who don't share our faith. They can also be saved, if they do as He has commanded us. He says that when He separates the sheep from the goats, some will be puzzled as to why they are saved, because they didn't know that when they were having mercy on others and helping the unfortunate,they were assuring their salvation.

Matthew 25:[37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.


[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This is why being a member of the "right" denomination won't save you. You must do the will of the Father to be saved.

And in Matthew 25, Jesus clearly tells us what His will is. Therefore, we should not be eager to "convert" Protestants, who may already be saved by acting on their faith. Such things foster strife among His people. Welcome them in to the Church, if they come, but remember the Good Samaritan and know that the Holy Spirit is also moving among our Protestant brothers and sisters.

 

[brakelite]

That's what the Great Commission is all about. But remember what Jesus said about those who don't share our faith. They can also be saved, if they do as He has commanded us. He says that when He separates the sheep from the goats, some will be puzzled as to why they are saved, because they didn't know that when they were having mercy on others and helping the unfortunate,they were assuring their salvation.

Matthew 25:[37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.


[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This is why being a member of the "right" denomination won't save you. You must do the will of the Father to be saved.

And in Matthew 25, Jesus clearly tells us what His will is. Therefore, we should not be eager to "convert" Protestants, who may already be saved by acting on their faith. Such things foster strife among His people. Welcome them in to the Church, if they come, but remember the Good Samaritan and know that the Holy Spirit is also moving among our Protestant brothers and sisters.

I like the fact that you, and epostle and maybe Philip, don't know about Mary or BoL, are willing to look upon protestants, at least those who are in the faith, as brothers and sisters. I also see those Catholics who are living up to what light they have, as being my brother and sisters. They belong to God.
My doubts however very much focus on what your church officially teaches. U could quote readily offer quotes, but I think you likely know them anyway. Vatican II reaffirmed the policy held for 1500 years... That the Catholic church centre in Rome is not the brother or sister church of anyone, but the mother, and ecumenism is the movement to bring everyone back under the authority of Rome. This was dobe by force of arms in times past, and prophecy reveals such will be the same in the future. Individual Catholics I have never had an issue with except in what we believe... The hierarchy... The institution, now that is a different animal altogether. I agree with the reformers... That the institution is the Antichrist, and I can show that from scripture. Which is why God calls His people out.

 

[Yehren]

I like the fact that you, and epostle and maybe Philip, don't know about Mary or BoL, are willing to look upon protestants, at least those who are in the faith, as brothers and sisters.

It's basic Catholic doctrine:
The Church recognizes that in many ways she is linked with those who, being baptized, are honored with the name of Christian, though they do not profess the faith in its entirety or do not preserve unity of communion with the successor of Peter. (14*) For there are many who honor Sacred Scripture, taking it as a norm of belief and a pattern of life, and who show a sincere zeal. They lovingly believe in God the Father Almighty and in Christ, the Son of God and Saviour. (15*) They are consecrated by baptism, in which they are united with Christ. They also recognize and accept other sacraments within their own Churches or ecclesiastical communities. Many of them rejoice in the episcopate, celebrate the Holy Eucharist and cultivate devotion toward the Virgin Mother of God.(16*) They also share with us in prayer and other spiritual benefits. Likewise we can say that in some real way they are joined with us in the Holy Spirit, for to them too He gives His gifts and graces whereby He is operative among them with His sanctifying power. Some indeed He has strengthened to the extent of the shedding of their blood.
From Lumen Gentium
DOGMATIC CONSTITUTION ON THE CHURCH
LUMEN GENTIUM
SOLEMNLY PROMULGATED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON NOVEMBER 21, 1964

I also see those Catholics who are living up to what light they have, as being my brother and sisters. They belong to God.
My doubts however very much focus on what your church officially teaches.

See above.

Granted, both Catholics and non-Catholics have tried to bring everyone into their denominations. This was dobe by force of arms in times past, and prophecy reveals such will be the same in the future.

If you consider the Church to be the AntiChrist, you have been led by the wrong master. He delights in conflict among Christians. Don't help him.

 

[Marymog]

That's what the Great Commission is all about. But remember what Jesus said about those who don't share our faith. They can also be saved, if they do as He has commanded us. He says that when He separates the sheep from the goats, some will be puzzled as to why they are saved, because they didn't know that when they were having mercy on others and helping the unfortunate, they were assuring their salvation.

Matthew 25:[37] Then shall the just answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, and fed thee; thirsty, and gave thee drink? [38] And when did we see thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and covered thee? [39] Or when did we see thee sick or in prison, and came to thee? [40] And the king answering, shall say to them: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it to one of these my least brethren, you did it to me.

[41] Then he shall say to them also that shall be on his left hand: Depart from me, you cursed, into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels. [42] For I was hungry, and you gave me not to eat: I was thirsty, and you gave me not to drink. [43] I was a stranger, and you took me not in: naked, and you covered me not: sick and in prison, and you did not visit me. [44] Then they also shall answer him, saying: Lord, when did we see thee hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister to thee? [45] Then he shall answer them, saying: Amen I say to you, as long as you did it not to one of these least, neither did you do it to me.


[46] And these shall go into everlasting punishment: but the just, into life everlasting.

Matthew 12:50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father, that is in heaven, he is my brother, and sister, and mother.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This is why being a member of the "right" denomination won't save you. You must do the will of the Father to be saved.

And in Matthew 25, Jesus clearly tells us what His will is. Therefore, we should not be eager to "convert" Protestants, who may already be saved by acting on their faith. Such things foster strife among His people. Welcome them in to the Church, if they come, but remember the Good Samaritan and know that the Holy Spirit is also moving among our Protestant brothers and sisters.

Thank you.

I agree with you. We must do the will of the Father to be saved.

I am not eager to convert anyone. I am only eager to make aware to others the Truth of Scripture. By doing so I am helping them for eternity. The good Samaritan only helped them for a moment in time. That is the point I was trying to make.

Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

You can't even say what you just said without interpreting in error.

On the other hand, I didn't use my own words, but explained God's word in the manner of the Holy Spirit, rather than that of the flesh and of men whom you follow. It's that simple. "The flesh profits nothing."

Soooooooo, when the Church interprets Scripture – it’s the “words of men”.
BUT – when YOU interpret Scripture – it’s the Holy Spirit speaking through YOU.

I don’t know what’s worse – your Scriptural perversions or your complete and utter arrogance . . .