Why are the 7 Churches in Revelation each greeted differently...
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Waiting on him
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Revelation 1:11 KJV
[11] Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Tecarta Bible
[11] Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.
Tecarta Bible
Yes, that is right but there is more: Reading isn't enough -- they must also hear and keep the sayings. Do not crave knowledge for the sake of knowledge like Eve. She knew about word from God and didn't keep it. She wasn't faithful with the little things and wanted the bigger ones now, now, now. She fell into being deceived. Revelation can be a trap if the big motive is craving knowledge. Some have gone mad spiritually trying to figure it out.
James 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
What does the angel preaching the gospel mean? Men may preach the gospel using the words of men. But does everyone hear? I mean really hear more than the words used by men but the heavenly message too? If they heard the heavenly message, they heard the "everlasting gospel" preached by the angel. I also believe the angel who spoke the shepherds about Jesus were preaching the everlasting gospel. The shepherds heard and then took action going to Bethlehem. The same angel preached the gospel to the whole earth too even though men hadn't preached it over the whole earth. Paul also provides a clue saying the gospel had been preached to every creature.
Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
That does not say to every man. It includes animals too. Back to Revelation:
Revelation 5:11 And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
God cares about all life. The covenant made with Noah was made with animals too.
Genesis 9:12 And God said, This is the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that is with you, for perpetual generations:
Jesus removed some of the burdens put on the animals by that covenant. They no longer served any purpose in being used as sacrifices for one thing.
Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
So what do the seven angels mean? I think people are different. We have different needs; and God will supply those needs if we allow Him. We could try to figure out what all the message mean; but perhaps we should listen to see if one message seems louder than the others. Does anything ring a bell? If so, perhaps that's a clue to which church you are in and what direction you need to follow.
I think it must be heard spiritually, not figured out from the written words using the human mind. Reading is the starting point, but we must then "hear" too and then "overcome" in the area we need to.
Revelation 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
If the Holy Spirit points out (without condemnation) something we need to fix, we can be sure it is from God. Anytime we feel condemned, it's not from God. It's from the great accuser.
Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
The Holy Spirit guides gently to correct us. It is a blessing if we can see our flaws and fix them; and the Holy Spirit acts that way. The Devil may be right about something when he accuses us; but never mind that -- just repent if you see he's right.
I think it dangerous to try to read Revelation if we are afraid of the future and think we need to know what's going to happen. We can become like the religious people John the Baptist mocked, "Who told you to flee from the wrath to come?" The spirit of fear is not from God --it is an obstacle. Those men who he mocked wound up receiving what they feared. Jerusalem was laid waste, and they lost their positions. Read Revelation without fear lest you wind up saying as Job did: "For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me."
Take no thought for the morrow. Don't fret about the future. Rather do what you know you should -- be obedient in the things you know as in "Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown." If that seems little, be faithful in the little things and wait to to be rewarded with bigger things. I say that because we've seen so many people who didn't "seek first the kingdom" and wait for all the other things to be added. They wanted the bigger things now and failed to seek the kingdom. Who are these people? Oh, the people who read Revelation and then predict the end of the world by such and such a date. They often preach a message of fear too. Such people can become like fortunetellers interested more in predicting the future than obeying God now. Trust God too to inform you if there is something you need to know about the future so you know how to act now. I know, yes I know, that many read "the Spirit of Truth" to mean the Spirit was going to tell the Apostles or us about everything God knows about, revealing even the hidden things of God -- but read it again.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
I read "all truth" to mean all the truth we need to know. God provides what we need. That manifestation of the Spirit which hears many things and sees many things therefore knows many things that no individual person could know. If someone tells you about a problem he has, and suddenly (and it seems out of nowhere) you think you have a good idea about what he could do to fix his problem, that idea may have came from God. If he follows your advice and his problem is solved, you can be sure you heard from the Spirit of truth. If he follows your advice and things don't improve or they get worse, the idea came from somewhere else -- and it may take time and experience to discern which is which. Some people can be carried away by vanity and think every thought they have came from God -- do not fall into that trap as so many others permitted themselves to. Catch every thought and examine it -- is this godly or not? Don't be alarmed by wrong ideas -- just say, "No, I don't think that's right. and dismiss it." Don't even be alarmed by sinful ideas. Just say, "No, that's not something I want to do" -- and then find something good to do instead. If the Devil suggests you commit adultery, go kiss your wife. Do not resist the evil -- do the opposite, do the good.
2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
I don’t believe you have a discouraging bone in your body, Farouk.
Hi Giuliano,
You make excellent points!
I do encourage learning the Bible so we know what it says, even if our understanding seems shallow. Just to learn the text of the Scriptures is good, as the Holy Spirit will illuminate us later if not already.
To read for the sake of knowledge alone, I'd have to say that it depends on how you think of this knowledge? Because I want all the knowledge I can receive about my Creator, and in the Bible, that's my primary way of knowing Him.
My personal relationship with Him is clarified and discerned by the Written Word of God.
I hear many talk about word, the "word of God" meaning "whatever I think is God speaking", that is, each other, primarily.
And I am convinced that God speaks to us personally. But I also know that without a roadmap, we risk going off into the weeds.
Several places in Scripture speak of knowledge of God renewing our minds, and even John says that when we see Him, we will be like Him, for we will see Him as He is.
Understanding the reality of God transforms us.
The most reliable source of information about God is the Bible.
But like you said, if we aren't actually transformed, then what should that tell us?
Much love!
When I first read the commandment to love God, I told myself, I don't know how to do that. I don't know that much about God. How can I love what I don't know? It was a mystery to me until the eyes were opened by:
1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
I did understand how to love other people -- but was I doing it earnestly enough? Perhaps not. How could I expect to know the Pure Love of God if I resisted love in my relationships with others? I saw too that God loves all His children. If I loved God, I couldn't treat any of His children in a way that injured them -- that would grieve God. I began to see good in others -- even in some people we might call sinners. The potential for good was in them but they didn't feel safe loving others. I began to understand why Jesus liked to be around "publicans and sinners." He could see the hidden good in them. He could see how they were in the image of God -- but hiding it. Evil men have evil eyes, often imagining evil where it doesn't exist. This "evil eye" helps create evil in others if we treat them with contempt,since it encourages them to doubt that love can really exist.
And often, if we can only find the good in others, despite the brave front they put up, we find that they are longing for love but doubtful it could possibly be true.
I love the story about Zacchaeus because Jesus spotted something in him that other people didn't see. Other people saw him as short and inferior. To prove he was superior, he thought he wanted to get rich as a way of getting even; but really what he wanted was acceptance and love -- that inner child. So Jesus asked him for a favor. "Will you do something for me?" He got Zacchaeus to do something decent. I think that's what Zacchaeus wanted all along, and here was someone asking to be pleasant and kind. When he did it, he started enjoying it. His inner child came out of its shell. He was starting to enter the kingdom by allowing his inner child to emerge. He got so carried away by it, he kept on having fun by giving away much of his wealth. What did he need that for? He'd been rich -- it didn't make him happy. And all that because Jesus could "see" the inner child in Zacchaeus.
Jesus told another rich man, when asked, to go sell everything he had. That man wasn't happy when he came to Jesus. He knew he was miserable. Jesus gave him the best advice possible. That man could have been as happy as Zacchaeus if he had taken the advice; but he went away sad. He came sad and left sad. He kept all the commandments but without love. It is good to keep God's commandments even if we don't feel loving; but it is not enough -- we need to go on to keeping them because we like it, we love others and enjoy making others happy if we can. It is one thing to obey God hoping we get something in return -- like eternal life -- but it is better to do good without caring what we get back. For one thing, we aren't keeping a tally on who owes us what favors and then possibly getting upset over it or worrying about it. God will provide what we need in any case.
I gave money to a woman once who needed it to help pay her moving expenses. She wanted to make it a loan. I had my doubts about that. If she couldn't pay me back or decided not to, it would spoil our friendship. I didn't want that. When she said she'd feel bad if she didn't pay me back, I asked her if she would help someone else in the future when she had the money. I didn't need the money back -- why not have her give it to someone else who really needed it? She said she would. I don't know if she did, that's her business not mine. She doesn't owe me so why would I ask her about it? I don't see her much anymore; but when we do meet, we are still dear friends. I hope for her sake she did give the money to someone else because I think it would have made her happy.
For me, everything in the Bible must be seen through the lens of love. Everything can be summed up in the two great commandments. If I can't see how love is expressed in a passage, I assume I don't understand it. Jesus said all the Law and Prophets were about those two commandments. I think so. Keeping the laws of Moses by the letter might have some benefits, but it's not enough. If someone keeps them without seeing an expression of love, he's missing something. The Real Law is eternal, the Law of Love. The laws of Moses were given as explanations for people who did not understand correctly that God is Love.
Let me draw your attention to a word in those two commandments here:
Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Just how alike are they? I still don't know. It's hard to know how I could keep one without keeping the other. I don't know where to draw a line dividing the two. If you can do one, you have to be doing the other. When I thought about John wrote about being a liar if we say love God but hate others, it made even more sense to me. God remains a mystery to me. The more I come to know, the more I become aware that there is much more I don't know. The more the mystery of God deepens. I also perceived that seeking knowledge and wisdom for their own account could be troublesome. Wanting to know some things if God says no was a potential source of trouble. Solomon said:
Ecclesiastes 1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
I reached a point where I knew I had gained some insights, but after a point it served no purpose. I also asked questions and was told clearly they were out of limits. That was fine, too. I was curious, but it was not my business. I also knew it could be better if I didn't know. People can abuse the knowledge they're given, so I assumed God thought it might not be safe to trust me with some things. I might be tempted beyond what I could bear.
Solomon ends:
12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Could the people at Berea have come to the truth by reading the Scriptures? I say no. They'd already read them. Along comes Paul and Silas with ideas they'd never heard of. They sounded good -- but were they true? The Bereans didn't know and they knew they didn't know. So they searched the Scriptures. If what Paul and Silas said contradicted something in the Scriptures they did understand, then they would reject the message. They were not searching to find the truth -- they were searching to see if what Paul and Silas said couldn't be true. They didn't find any contradictions so it surely could be true even though they hadn't derived it for themselves by reading the Scriptures. There is wisdom I think in what the fictional Sherlock Holmes said, "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
From what you wrote, I believe you cansee that people often read the Bible trying to prove what they want it to say, and thus how they can be led into all sorts of foolishness. If we see that, we can avoid imitating their mistake. They go down a path described by Paul, "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." What I find sad is that people often follow religious leaders with this sort of learning. Paul describes them well. They impress people with their self-serving so-called knowledge that tends to benefit them if you follow them.
My favorite line is how they creep into houses to take advantage of women -- and we see that today too with ministers secretly seducing women in their congregations -- or even worse, abusing children. How could such people wishing to think themselves righteous without accepting any correction ever come to the truth?
Let me draw your attention to a word in those two commandments here:
Matthew 22:35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Just how alike are they? I still don't know. It's hard to know how I could keep one without keeping the other. I don't know where to draw a line dividing the two. If you can do one, you have to be doing the other. When I thought about John wrote about being a liar if we say love God but hate others, it made even more sense to me. God remains a mystery to me. The more I come to know, the more I become aware that there is much more I don't know. The more the mystery of God deepens. I also perceived that seeking knowledge and wisdom for their own account could be troublesome. Wanting to know some things if God says no was a potential source of trouble. Solomon said:
Ecclesiastes 1:17 And I gave my heart to know wisdom, and to know madness and folly: I perceived that this also is vexation of spirit.
I reached a point where I knew I had gained some insights, but after a point it served no purpose. I also asked questions and was told clearly they were out of limits. That was fine, too. I was curious, but it was not my business. I also knew it could be better if I didn't know. People can abuse the knowledge they're given, so I assumed God thought it might not be safe to trust me with some things. I might be tempted beyond what I could bear.
Solomon ends:
12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
Think a little more about that. If it is true God can speak to men and women, I think that would be the most reliable source. The problem with that is how to discern if it is the Voice of God or something else. I've found the Bible more useful for telling me what can't be true when ideas crossed my mind than for telling me what was true. People read that Scripture is profitable for correction and reproof and think mostly that that means they should use the Bible to correct and reprove others. While Scripture can be used that way, it is tragic if we don't see that God can correct and reprove us when we read the Bible. "Is this idea right? can it be so?" Search the scriptures to see if they show you it can't be true. It may be hard to "prove" something is true; but if you can prove something wrong, you've eliminated that error. You're a little closer to the truth.
Could the people at Berea have come to the truth by reading the Scriptures? I say no. They'd already read them. Along comes Paul and Silas with ideas they'd never heard of. They sounded good -- but were they true? The Bereans didn't know and they knew they didn't know. So they searched the Scriptures. If what Paul and Silas said contradicted something in the Scriptures they did understand, then they would reject the message. They were not searching to find the truth -- they were searching to see if what Paul and Silas said couldn't be true. They didn't find any contradictions so it surely could be true even though they hadn't derived it for themselves by reading the Scriptures. There is wisdom I think in what the fictional Sherlock Holmes said, "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
From what you wrote, I believe you cansee that people often read the Bible trying to prove what they want it to say, and thus how they can be led into all sorts of foolishness. If we see that, we can avoid imitating their mistake. They go down a path described by Paul, "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." What I find sad is that people often follow religious leaders with this sort of learning. Paul describes them well. They impress people with their self-serving so-called knowledge that tends to benefit them if you follow them.
My favorite line is how they creep into houses to take advantage of women -- and we see that today too with ministers secretly seducing women in their congregations -- or even worse, abusing children. How could such people wishing to think themselves righteous without accepting any correction ever come to the truth?
That's a lot of what I had in mind also.
We read things, and form ideas, but the more we know the Bible, the more readily we can know when we're mistaken.
I think about . . .
Hebrews 5:14 "But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil."
We use what we learn, and we come to know what is good, and what is evil.
We put into practice what we know, and then we will come to know more.
Much love!
Most of "Christ living through me" happens out on the street when I have no Bible anywhere around. It is not Scripture verifying that puts instant peculiar ideas in my head and/or the urging of impulses to interact with a stranger... it is God's Spirit.
If things work out good when you get those ideas and impulses, I think you can be sure it's from God. I believe God likes to put ideas in our heads; and if we obey, all is well. But if we see where we can do good and don't do it, it is a sin. So says the good book.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
This kind of guidance may start off with small things. If we obey the Spirit in them, He may reward us with more opportunities to help others, perhaps to comfort them -- who knows what to expect? God. Sometimes that verse from James comes to me when I see a piece of trash on my neighbor's sidewalk. Should I walk by it with disgust, or should I pick it so others don't have to see it? What a small thing, eh? But I figure if I'm faithful in the little things, it's good for me. I have been rewarded too by being shown how to do bigger things. In one way, I could say I did these things; but in another way, God did them -- I was just the instrument used.
And know not to try to mix good and evil. A little yeast can leaven the whole loaf. I think the purpose of Israel's being told to observe the days of unleavened bread was meant to teach that. While they kept the physical commandment, they should reflect on what they were to learn. If they learned the lesson, they had learned how to hear the Voice of God -- and the observing of the physical commandment -- by the letter -- was no longer necessary. All the laws of Moses to a people who did not want to hear the Voice of God. They wanted Moses to talk to God and then tell them what to do. If that was the only way for God to get through, He would do it that way. It would stay that way until people on earth were willing to hear and receive Messiah speaking the Living Words -- Words of Spirit. God can adapt to us -- if it will do us good. That doesn't mean God is changing -- God is always loving and love yields if it can accomplish good.
Who are Jezebel's children? I read that and said, "What? I thought all Ahab's children were killed." I did some checking. His sons were. He had a daughter who married into the Davidic line.
2 Kings 8:16 And in the fifth year of Joram the son of Ahab king of Israel, Jehoshaphat being then king of Judah, Jehoram the son of Jehoshaphat king of Judah began to reign.
17 Thirty and two years old was he when he began to reign; and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem.
18 And he walked in the way of the kings of Israel, as did the house of Ahab: for the daughter of Ahab was his wife: and he did evil in the sight of the Lord.
19 Yet the Lord would not destroy Judah for David his servant's sake, as he promised him to give him alway a light, and to his children.
Joram is mentioned in the list Matthew gives, his wife is not. I can't "prove" Jezebel was this woman's mother, but I surely wondered since so many other "unpleasant" women married into the family. If so, Jesus himself could be called one of her children.
Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
I don't read that as angry or vengeful. I see Jesus being willing to take on some of the evil of Jezebel and also willing to die for it. Her other children should be willing to do the same thing for any sin that needed correcting. So what if her children die? They can live again -- and I believe they will since God is not willing that any should perish. The "old man" as some say has to die. That Jezebel spirit must die. Jezebel came from royal line of Sidon. Remember Jezebel was eaten by dogs. Now to Sidon and dogs in the Gospels.
Matthew 15:21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
Was this daughter afflicted with a spirit like Jezebel had? I think so. I think maybe the mother had spiritual problems too.
He said he wasn't sent to the Gentiles, only to Israel. He would not give bread (spiritual bread) to a dog. She didn't take offense but asked for mercy. I think this event altered the course of history. When this woman repented, it meant there were Gentiles ready to receive Messiah. God adapted since Love yields. Jesus' mission then included Gentiles. The "fallen woman" had returned and accepted proper spiritual authority -- unlike Jezebel who seduced Ahab into tolerating her doing bad things because he could get what he wanted. "Oh, you want that vineyard? I'll hatch up a plot so you can have it."
Was she a dog? She was in a way, at least to begin with. The fallen woman can change her ways however -- like the woman who anointed Jesus' feet. Being at his feet is a good place.
Isaiah 52:7 How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth!
It is where Heaven meets earth. The saint may be in heavenly places, but feet are connected to the earthly things. Abraham exercised spiritual authority over the Land of Promise by walking on it. He was like a lightning rod. When God appeared to Moses, where Moses stood became holy ground. Wherever the saint's feet go, the world come under the Authority of God. Dominion over the earth was given to man. Through man (and the Son of Man), the world will come to know God -- and Heaven will help the man who wants the world to know God and rejoice about it.
Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
What gives God pleasure? Some might be tempted to think of God as the kind of worldly father who wants to boss everyone around; but no, God takes pleasure in seeing His children being happy. God created us, I believe, so He could love us. How could God express Love if He didn't have others to love?
There are places in Revelation that talk about feet burning. That is spiritual fire. If there is any impurity on the earth where the spiritual feet touch it, it burns away the impurity because nothing impure can be in Presence and continue to exist as impurity.
People can sometimes feel this Sacred Fire -- it's easier to feel in the heart. If someone is in the proper spiritual state (often when worshippnig or praising God), he or she will a warmth in the heart. That is a good thing. The Sacred Fire is burning away impurities gently and without injuring the person. I say do it now so you don't go somewhere after you die where it's burned away while you're resisting God and wanting to hold onto the impurities. That is experienced as painful. God is everywhere -- even in the fires of hell. They are the Sacred Fire, the Fire of Love, but resisting God's Love is painful as the fire burns away the defects. I realize I'm saying some things many will find hard to accept. It's okay with me. I'm just giving my views.
Psalm 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
God always knew me. When He wrote His Book He knew me. I find that God doesn't need to adapt as such, He anticipated literally everything.
This is one thing I absolutely Love about the Bible, I have yet to find a single heresy or perversion of the truth that is not addressed. Anything anyone says about God, if it's wrong, the Bible will show it, specifically.
But I digress . . .
He knows that today I will be relying on His grace, and,
2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,"
So then before creation, God planned to supply me with the grace I need to stand, and to fulfill His walk of works.
Much love!
This passage shows, I think, how unique each saint is.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
The person who has received such a white stone has a name I don't know and never will. I will never completely understand the relationship between him and Jesus. I may find out some things if they talk about them; but I still can't say I "know" for sure. I haven't experienced it. I can believe what they tell me if I have faith in them that they wouldn't lie, so that kind of knowledge is based on faith not direct observation.
If someone says to me, meet me about three at the corner store, I will go if I believe him that he'll be there. I won't know for sure until I get there if he's going to be there. Over time when someone does what he says he'll do, I have more faith in what he says. The best kind of faith then is based on evidence -- maybe not evidence we can point to in the material world but it's still evidence.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
People's faith in God can grow over time. At first, people aren't that such; but over time, when things work out right, their faith in God grows stronger.
Someone with a lot of faith in Jesus relies on his personal relationship and can find out things that maybe I can't. That person is a better source or witness. The subject of a "human intermediary" is a touchy one. I'm a little reluctant to go there; but if we believe God inspires prophets, we hav to believe that God uses His prophets to tell others that the others can't receive directly. They are still "babes."
We see this at work in hearing the Gospel and baptism too. I can't preach the Gospel to myself and I can't baptize myself. I must have some humility and be willing to take a risk that a minister has something worthwhile to listen to. I have to hope that maybe he has information that would be useful for me to have. I don't know but I can hope. If the Word of the Gospel is truly being preached, it is coming from Heaven through the man. If I receive it, I might experience something. The Bible talks about joy or even great joy. Joy, for me, is a kind of spiritual bliss that tells us things are right.
Then comes baptism. We are told it's a good thing. We don't understand it, but if we trust the "witness" who tells us we should get baptized, again we agree to do something without understanding it. That's showing more faith. We are mostly trusting the words of men spoken to us and human words in a book at this point. Pride in our ideas and selfishness need to be curbed. I think baptism does that. If we are going to be incorporated into the Body of Christ, we must agree that other people matter. God is using a man to bring us into the Body of Christ.
The next step is the emergence of something new after baptism. Compare to Genesis. First light appears, then the waters are divided, and after that dry land. The "new creature" that comes up from the water is a spiritual creature or the beginning of a new creature. This is the beginning of the forming of the "white stone" for me.
The world before the flood was one way -- emerging from the upper and lower waters in Genesis 1. That initial world passed away in the next age when the whole world was baptized as it were.
2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
By the Word of God, the heavens and earth were made and sustained. When another "word" was received, a new world, a new age commenced -- the era of the Flood. That was followed by a third age when the "new earth" emerged from the upper and lower waters. Dry land emerged again.
The same pattern is seen in the life of Jesus. He was born as Light of the world -- the Star teaches that I think. For him to have the right to be the Head of the Body of Christ, he needed to agree to terms. He needed to be responsible for the rest of the Body. He shows his willingness to take on responsibility by being humble enough to submit to another man. So the "rock that came down from Heaven" emerges from the water in a new way. It had already been true in Heaven. Now it coming true on earth. The Hebrew word for "son" and "stone" are the same word, "ben". Physical houses are built out of physical stones; and spiritual houses out of spiritual sons or stones.
Notice that there is "water" above -- not stated explicitly -- but the Voice comes from above. It's more explicit at Transfiguration when the voice comes from a cloud. Clouds contain water. Spiritual clouds contain spiritual water. This can be called "air" which is one of the heavens; it can be called "upper waters" too. The "lower waters" are also spiritual waters -- and this is the kind of water found several times in Revelation -- the kind of water found in "the sea" which goes out of existence at the end. The physical water of baptism is there to help focus the mind.
Israel was baptized with two kinds of water:
1 Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
The cloud was the Pillar that appeared as a cloud by day and fire by night, Fire Showing the spiritual nature of God when manifested to men) was in the Cloud since God manifested His Presence in that pillar that united Heaven and earth.
Note too that there was a "bird" in Exodus. We see a dove at the baptism of Jesus; it was an eagle in Exodus.
Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
The same symbol is used in Revelation:
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
The pattern seen in Exodus is playing out again in Revelation. In one way, the newly baptized person has a new standing in heaven. His physical body is still on the earth -- but he also has a place in heavenly places and can also be supported by the wings of the eagle. That can be true even people aren't aware of it using their human awareness.
The white stone is built up over time. It too exists in both heavenly places and on earth. It is not hard like physical stones but can change its shape as needed. In Heaven, it is fit in with other stones. The Heavenly Temple is built up. The heart of a sinner is hard, inflexible. It too has a manifestation in heaven but lacks the Fire of God in it. The stones in the Heavenly Temple are lively and flash with fire.
Men build with bricks. Bricks are not used in anything holy. Not only are they man-made, they are all uniform. If you see one, you've seen them all. That uniformity makes building easier, but cannot be used to build the holy since God wants each stone to be unique -- while miraculously fitting perfectly with the others. If Jesus has "the name" on your stone, he knows where you fit. I may know I fit in here and there, but the matter as a whole is beyond me.
This gives a new spin on Babel and Babylon, does it not? "We will build a tower up to Heaven using bricks! We will all be alike, we will be slaves to the idea of uniformity -- that's how we get high enough to get into Heaven." Religion time and again has experimented with this idea of uniformity. Time and time again, rules were made that everyone had to obey and doctrines taught that everyone had to accept. There is no love in Babylon. No one is valued for being himself. People are a commodity like everyone else. False religion is mixed with abusive government and tied together by the love of money and power.
Revelation 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
Revelation 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
The person who has received such a white stone has a name I don't know and never will. I will never completely understand the relationship between him and Jesus. I may find out some things if they talk about them; but I still can't say I "know" for sure. I haven't experienced it. I can believe what they tell me if I have faith in them that they wouldn't lie, so that kind of knowledge is based on faith not direct observation.
If someone says to me, meet me about three at the corner store, I will go if I believe him that he'll be there. I won't know for sure until I get there if he's going to be there. Over time when someone does what he says he'll do, I have more faith in what he says. The best kind of faith then is based on evidence -- maybe not evidence we can point to in the material world but it's still evidence.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
People's faith in God can grow over time. At first, people aren't that such; but over time, when things work out right, their faith in God grows stronger.
Someone with a lot of faith in Jesus relies on his personal relationship and can find out things that maybe I can't. That person is a better source or witness. The subject of a "human intermediary" is a touchy one. I'm a little reluctant to go there; but if we believe God inspires prophets, we hav to believe that God uses His prophets to tell others that the others can't receive directly. They are still "babes."
We see this at work in hearing the Gospel and baptism too. I can't preach the Gospel to myself and I can't baptize myself. I must have some humility and be willing to take a risk that a minister has something worthwhile to listen to. I have to hope that maybe he has information that would be useful for me to have. I don't know but I can hope. If the Word of the Gospel is truly being preached, it is coming from Heaven through the man. If I receive it, I might experience something. The Bible talks about joy or even great joy. Joy, for me, is a kind of spiritual bliss that tells us things are right.
Then comes baptism. We are told it's a good thing. We don't understand it, but if we trust the "witness" who tells us we should get baptized, again we agree to do something without understanding it. That's showing more faith. We are mostly trusting the words of men spoken to us and human words in a book at this point. Pride in our ideas and selfishness need to be curbed. I think baptism does that. If we are going to be incorporated into the Body of Christ, we must agree that other people matter. God is using a man to bring us into the Body of Christ.
The next step is the emergence of something new after baptism. Compare to Genesis. First light appears, then the waters are divided, and after that dry land. The "new creature" that comes up from the water is a spiritual creature or the beginning of a new creature. This is the beginning of the forming of the "white stone" for me.
The world before the flood was one way -- emerging from the upper and lower waters in Genesis 1. That initial world passed away in the next age when the whole world was baptized as it were.
2 Peter 3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
By the Word of God, the heavens and earth were made and sustained. When another "word" was received, a new world, a new age commenced -- the era of the Flood. That was followed by a third age when the "new earth" emerged from the upper and lower waters. Dry land emerged again.
The same pattern is seen in the life of Jesus. He was born as Light of the world -- the Star teaches that I think. For him to have the right to be the Head of the Body of Christ, he needed to agree to terms. He needed to be responsible for the rest of the Body. He shows his willingness to take on responsibility by being humble enough to submit to another man. So the "rock that came down from Heaven" emerges from the water in a new way. It had already been true in Heaven. Now it coming true on earth. The Hebrew word for "son" and "stone" are the same word, "ben". Physical houses are built out of physical stones; and spiritual houses out of spiritual sons or stones.
Notice that there is "water" above -- not stated explicitly -- but the Voice comes from above. It's more explicit at Transfiguration when the voice comes from a cloud. Clouds contain water. Spiritual clouds contain spiritual water. This can be called "air" which is one of the heavens; it can be called "upper waters" too. The "lower waters" are also spiritual waters -- and this is the kind of water found several times in Revelation -- the kind of water found in "the sea" which goes out of existence at the end. The physical water of baptism is there to help focus the mind.
Israel was baptized with two kinds of water:
1 Corinthians 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
The cloud was the Pillar that appeared as a cloud by day and fire by night, Fire Showing the spiritual nature of God when manifested to men) was in the Cloud since God manifested His Presence in that pillar that united Heaven and earth.
Note too that there was a "bird" in Exodus. We see a dove at the baptism of Jesus; it was an eagle in Exodus.
Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
The same symbol is used in Revelation:
Revelation 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
The pattern seen in Exodus is playing out again in Revelation. In one way, the newly baptized person has a new standing in heaven. His physical body is still on the earth -- but he also has a place in heavenly places and can also be supported by the wings of the eagle. That can be true even people aren't aware of it using their human awareness.
The white stone is built up over time. It too exists in both heavenly places and on earth. It is not hard like physical stones but can change its shape as needed. In Heaven, it is fit in with other stones. The Heavenly Temple is built up. The heart of a sinner is hard, inflexible. It too has a manifestation in heaven but lacks the Fire of God in it. The stones in the Heavenly Temple are lively and flash with fire.
Men build with bricks. Bricks are not used in anything holy. Not only are they man-made, they are all uniform. If you see one, you've seen them all. That uniformity makes building easier, but cannot be used to build the holy since God wants each stone to be unique -- while miraculously fitting perfectly with the others. If Jesus has "the name" on your stone, he knows where you fit. I may know I fit in here and there, but the matter as a whole is beyond me.
This gives a new spin on Babel and Babylon, does it not? "We will build a tower up to Heaven using bricks! We will all be alike, we will be slaves to the idea of uniformity -- that's how we get high enough to get into Heaven." Religion time and again has experimented with this idea of uniformity. Time and time again, rules were made that everyone had to obey and doctrines taught that everyone had to accept. There is no love in Babylon. No one is valued for being himself. People are a commodity like everyone else. False religion is mixed with abusive government and tied together by the love of money and power.
Revelation 18:12 The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,
13 And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.
This reminds me of:
Revelation 7:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.
Without commenting on other things, we see that some did have their names in the book of life from the foundation of the world. Some did not.
Names can be added. Names can also be stricken out but almost never are. It is God's Will that no one will perish. Therefore He wishes for all to come to repentance and have their names added.
Exodus 32:33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
I think His plan covered all possibilities. If we did one thing, He had a plan to cover that. If we did something else, His plan covered that too. Think about when Israel wanted a king. Samuel knew it wasn't the best thing. God told Samuel to let them have one. God's plan covered that possibility since Jacob had been told, before Benjamin was born, "kings shall come out of thy loins." There is a saying that God knows how to provide a solution before the problem arises."
It would have been poor planning if God had made the world in a way that things could get so far out of control, they couldn't be fixed. If we believe God is Perfect, we have to believe He's Wise enough not to set something in motion that could get out of control. Nor should we doubt His love that He would create a world where misery He couldn't do anything about misery if people created it. Nor should we believe He is Wise and Loving but lacking in Power.
Davy
Well-Known Member
What? The simple words of Scripture aren't to be understood in our minds? If political labels were applied to Christianity, you'd be a Liberal. You really have taken too much 'liberty' in interpretation, and are more on the borderline of philosophy, instead of keeping to the simplicity that is God's Word.
All seven Messages our Lord Jesus gave for a purpose, and we are to read and understand each one, in simplicity, as a guide. It's as simple as that.
I see you like to fit people in boxes. I don't know how useful that is.
Simplicity? If it's that easy, why are so many people so confused? Why are there so many different opinions?
I think I read them all and understand them in part.
Do you believe you belong in all seven churches?
Have you "kept the sayings" in the book? Are we to hear them and then not do something?
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All excellent responses as far as I read. I'm going to take a leap here and guess that, since all the letters have the same closing refrain focusing on the Holy Spirit, that Jesus was telling us about the different aspects of the Holy Spirit that would work through the word that He inspired to hold safe and unblemished the Bride of Christ. That is why it is vitally important that the Church study the Book of Revelation (and why a blessing is attached to the reading and study of it). Unfortunately, Christians, as a whole, do NOT read and study it and perhaps one of the reasons we have never formulated a very comprehensive theology of the Holy Spirit is that lack. Especially in these Last Days (and what I believe to be the last of the Last Days) we need to keep pursuing the meaning of this last word of the word of God.
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