Tulip

[farouk]

I think passages such as Ephesians 2 and John 6 are good to study thoroughly before voicing opinions on what Calvinism supposedly is.

 

[GodsGrace]

Hi,

There are many verses that speak to the fact that man is wicked, sinful, evil but no verse says he is born that way against his will. Men that are wicked, sinful because they choose to be that way. If you were born only able to do what is wicked, evil and sinful then you would have an excuse for your behavior (yet men are 'without excuse' before God Romans 1:20). You could not justly, rightly be held accountable for how you were born. Could you rightly, justly hold a person born without legs accountable for not walking? But since man is capable of choosing to well or not (Genesis 4:7) each of us will be rightly held accountable for our choices. One of the things about Calvinism that puts God in a bad light is God causing a man to do what is wrong, then God punishes that man for the wrong God made him do.

Amen to that!
I have never understood why calvinists do NOT understand this.
It's a strange god they serve.
He makes man a sinner and then punishes him for it.
Makes some humans to go to hell...not very nice of him.

Free will, I'd say, is also an important part of our make up.
Since we have free will, we CAN be held responsible for our actions...as you've stated.

Also, there are persons that are not even saved that do good deeds...how is that to be explained?

Calvinism takes away God's:
Love
Mercy
Justice

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I think passages such as Ephesians 2 and John 6 are good to study thoroughly before voicing opinions on what Calvinism supposedly is.

The first few verses of Ephesians 2 are used by Calvinist to "prove" man is born totally depraved, but such is not found in the passage.

Ephesians 2:1 "And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins," Paul is speaking about the Ephesians' own sins they committed were accountable for, not any sin they supposedly inherited from another person

"were by nature children of wrath" the word 'nature' can mean how one is innately born but it can also mean how one acts through habitual practice. Paul says nothing about how those Ephesians were born in the context but does speak of their habitually practicing sin...."ye once walked according to the course of this world" and " lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind". They habitually walked and lived in sin for so long it became part of their nature, again, by habitual practice not how they were born.

Also, that little verb "were" in "were by nature children of wrath":

In verse three Paul affirms that all of us “were . . . children of wrath.” The verb emetha (“were”) is an imperfect tense form. The imperfect tense describes continuity of action as viewed in the past.

Thus, here it depicts the habitual style of life which had characterized these saints prior to their conversion. Had the apostle intended to convey the notion of inherited sinfulness at the time of their birth, he easily could have expressed that idea by saying, “you became by birth children of wrath.”

They Did It To Themselves

It is also significant that the verb is in the middle voice in the Greek Testament. The middle voice is employed to suggest the subject’s personal involvement in the action of the verb. The language, therefore, stresses that the sinful condition of the Ephesians had been their individual responsibility.

Hence, combining the imperfect tense and middle voice aspects of the verb, we might paraphrase the passage thusly: “you kept on making yourselves children of wrath.” Are Infants by Nature Children of Wrath?

Will the Calvinist argue with me that those Ephesians were the object of God's wrath simply because of how they were supposedly born against their will? In truth, they were deserving of God's wrath for choosing to habitually live a lifestyle in sin.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Amen to that!
I have never understood why calvinists do NOT understand this.
It's a strange god they serve.
He makes man a sinner and then punishes him for it.
Makes some humans to go to hell...not very nice of him.

Free will, I'd say, is also an important part of our make up.
Since we have free will, we CAN be held responsible for our actions...as you've stated.

Also, there are persons that are not even saved that do good deeds...how is that to be explained?

Calvinism takes away God's:
Love
Mercy
Justice

Romans 2:14 is not possible if all are born totally depraved.

 

[GodsGrace]

The first few verses of Ephesians 2 are used by Calvinist to "prove" man is born totally depraved, but such is not found in the passage.

Ephesians 2:1 "And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins," Paul is speaking about the Ephesians' own sins they committed were accountable for, not any sin they supposedly inherited from another person

"were by nature children of wrath" the word 'nature' can mean how one is innately born but it can also mean how one acts through habitual practice. Paul says nothing about how those Ephesians were born in the context but does speak of their habitually practicing sin...."ye once walked according to the course of this world" and " lived in the lusts of our flesh, doing the desires of the flesh and of the mind". They habitually walked and lived in sin for so long it became part of their nature, again, by habitual practice not how they were born.

Also, that little verb "were" in "were by nature children of wrath":

In verse three Paul affirms that all of us “were . . . children of wrath.” The verb emetha (“were”) is an imperfect tense form. The imperfect tense describes continuity of action as viewed in the past.

Thus, here it depicts the habitual style of life which had characterized these saints prior to their conversion. Had the apostle intended to convey the notion of inherited sinfulness at the time of their birth, he easily could have expressed that idea by saying, “you became by birth children of wrath.”

They Did It To Themselves

It is also significant that the verb is in the middle voice in the Greek Testament. The middle voice is employed to suggest the subject’s personal involvement in the action of the verb. The language, therefore, stresses that the sinful condition of the Ephesians had been their individual responsibility.

Hence, combining the imperfect tense and middle voice aspects of the verb, we might paraphrase the passage thusly: “you kept on making yourselves children of wrath.” Are Infants by Nature Children of Wrath?

Will the Calvinist argue with me that those Ephesians were the object of God's wrath simply because of how they were supposedly born against their will? In truth, they were deserving of God's wrath for choosing to habitually live a lifestyle in sin.

Great post ETB.
@farouk does seem to post the same verses over and over.
This is because there aren't too many that SEEM to support calvinism.
Farouk and I have been through this many times now.

I think that understanding calviinism is also a m atter of common sense.
WHY would God make some creatures that He does NOT LOVE,
and will send straight to hell,,,,and then call himself a loving God.
Makes no common sense..even leaving aside scripture.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Great post ETB.
@farouk does seem to post the same verses over and over.
This is because there aren't too many that SEEM to support calvinism.
Farouk and I have been through this many times now.

I think that understanding calviinism is also a m atter of common sense.
WHY would God make some creatures that He does NOT LOVE,
and will send straight to hell,,,,and then call himself a loving God.
Makes no common sense..even leaving aside scripture.

And in the end, what does it all prove?

 

[GodsGrace]

And in the end, what does it all prove?

And in the end...
The love you take....
is equal to the love you make....

OR
What's goes around comes around.
OR
You reap what you sow.

What does calvinism prove?
That some persons don't understand how loving God is...
Because:
GOD IS LOVE.

1 John 4:8

What do YOU think?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

I love God
I await the Blessed Hope

 

[GodsGrace]

I love God
I await the Blessed Hope

Are you talkin' ta me?
I agree.
What is the blessed hope?

 

[Nancy]

I love God
I await the Blessed Hope

Better than chasing bad guys/girls! ♥

 

[Nancy]

Amen to that!
I have never understood why calvinists do NOT understand this.
It's a strange god they serve.
He makes man a sinner and then punishes him for it.
Makes some humans to go to hell...not very nice of him.

Free will, I'd say, is also an important part of our make up.
Since we have free will, we CAN be held responsible for our actions...as you've stated.

Also, there are persons that are not even saved that do good deeds...how is that to be explained?

Calvinism takes away God's:
Love
Mercy
Justice

Those who are not saved and do good works, it is going to all be burned up as the works were not done from Faith but, from their own selves which... = dung to God. I think there will be many "nice" and "generous" people in hell or whatever hell is! :)

 

[GodsGrace]

Better than chasing bad guys/girls! ♥

Oh.
There are bad girls?
What are you talking about?
Girls are perfect!
:cool:

 

[GodsGrace]

Those who are not saved and do good works, it is going to all be burned up as the works were not done from Faith but, from their own selves which... = dung to God. I think there will be many "nice" and "generous" people in hell or whatever hell is! :)

Right.
You could do all the good works/deeds you want...
If you don't know God they are for naught.
Only good deeds done for God are worth anything....

Although for those on earth the good deeds are counted for something even if one is not saved...however it does not get their soul saved.