Two particular problems with dispensationalism...

[Nancy]

Interesting.

This looks like one for what I call 'the heavy boys'.... I'll be reading the responses here :)

Same here Helen...oughta be a good one I think...♥

 

[Naomi25]

The first thing to understand is that there are two separate periods of 3 1/2 years each. The first is the Tribulation and the second is the Great Tribulation (the Greek literally says "the tribulation, the great").

There are sound biblical reasons for concluding that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are both manifestations of the wrath of God against the unbelieving, the ungodly, the wicked, and the enemies of Christ.

1. The Tribulation is primarily for unbelieving Jews, hence called "the time of Jacob's trouble". And it is also a UNIQUE PERIOD in history, such as has never been, nor ever will be. Only one-third of all the Jews worldwide will be saved out of it.

THE TIME OF JACOB'S (ISRAEL'S) TROUBLE
And these are the words that the LORD spake concerning Israel and concerning Judah. For thus saith the LORD; We have heard a voice of trembling, of fear, and not of peace. Ask ye now, and see whether a man doth travail with child? wherefore do I see every man with his hands on his loins, as a woman in travail, and all faces are turned into paleness?
Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob's trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. (Jer 30:4-7)

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Dan 12:1)

And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God. (Zech 13:8,9)

Hey Enoch, thanks for your reply.

First, I must question the interpretive stance on the passages above.
Jer 30 speaks of 'that day'...'that day that is so great there is none like it'. We see references to 'the day' in many other OT passages, Joel 1:15; Joel 2:11,31; Zephaniah 1:7,14; Ezekiel 7:7,12; Isaiah 13:6, 9....and so many more.

If "the day" in question is the return of Christ in his conquering, judging righteousness, then I must question how "the day" can be 2 3.5 year periods.

Again, Daniel 12:1 speaks of 'the end', sure, but...not, seemingly, in a protracted period:

“At that time shall arise Michael, the great prince who has charge of your people. And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. -Daniel 12:1–2

We see that "at that time"...the same time of this 'time of trouble', people will be delivered if they are found 'written within the book'...
This is not a passage of a protracted 7 year tribulation. This is speaking about the horror (for some) of the last day....'the day!' when Christ comes and their names are NOT found in the book.

And...I cannot see the point of Zech 13. Has the Jewish people been put through the fire? Undoubtably. Will that see their refinement? I trust that Romans 11 says it shall. But does that mean the bible says it will happen in a 7 year tribulation of God's wrath upon the earth? I don't see that. I see that wrath WILL be poured out on an unreprentant world...but grace is causing him to wait, for he wishes 'all to be saved'. Will he run out of patience? I believe that time will come, yes, but it will not come with a flood of wrath upon a world still going about its business. It will come about with the return of his Son in judgement.

2. Not "Tribulation" but "the Great Tribulation". And it is quite simple. All you have to do is compare the descriptions of the Day of the LORD in the OT and match them up with the 6th and 7th seal judgments in Revelation.

This confuses me...only to the extend of understanding where you are coming from. Because when I read the OT descriptions of "day of the Lord" and the 6th and 7th seals....I see Christ's return...cosmic and terrestrial disturbances, people wailing for fear AT the face of the one on the Throne and the Lamb...clear evidences of a theophany.
So...I can't really see HOW this ends up a 7 year...or even just a 3.5 year 'bad day' for people on earth who 'theoretically' still refuse to acknowlege and bow to God. Because it seems to me that the 6th seal sees all people, everywhere, acknowledging WHO God is and WHAT has come upon them.

 

[Naomi25]

The dispensations and "A, post, and pre" Mills confuse me. Every-time I think I "got it", someone like yourself comes along (lol) and forces me to look further. This very thread is something I have decided to do my next private bible study on and, I wish I had at least one other person that would do it with me. There is a ton of stuff to address in your post so...I will say this: I DON'T KNOW.
And, you are right, I have not heard hide nor hair of these doctrines in the Church's. They are all in assumption that after the GT, Jesus will physically reign from Jerusalem for 1000 literal years, of which at the end, Satan will be loosed from His prison to tempt mankind again. Oh yes, and most seem to go for the pre-trib rapture as well. Which to me, seems to have Jesus coming back 3 times!
Allowances are made for symbols, figures of speech, and types, of course. I do know that Dispensation does allow for certain types of things like symbols and such. But then, there are those who say that even these have literal interps!
You have a loaded thread here Naomi, I hope it takes off well!
In Him,
nancy

Oh, it most certainly can be tricky when you're just starting to dip your toes into it! It can be tricky even after you've been swimming in the eschatalogical pool for some time! Just when you think you've got all the terms and positions lined up, someone will pop up with something new and shake you again. Or someone from an 'old' school of thought will manage to say something in a way that makes you think about it again from a whole new angle!
But here's my personal theory....we're not SUPPOSED to stop thinking about it!! The topic is one of the most exciting ones on earth...Jesus Christ's return! So I just don't think it can be wrong to be constantly noodling it over in the back of our minds...running through the bible verses that touch on the topic and how they inter-relate and sit together. How the different positions sit with the overall message of the gospel and what Christ came to do for us.
And yes...I totally get your desire to have someone run through it all with you...that's one of the reasons I came to this board. So often people in the Church just don't want to talk about it, which I think is disappointing. But, the problem we have here, of course, is, most people already have 'landed' somewhere, and therefore may not want to just run through it all in a neutral-like way. Sometimes we try, but we all have loaded back-packs we lug into our thought processes. But...you are always free to message me if you want to ask me anything or my opinion on something...I'll do my best not to 'sway' you too much! I think on this issue and topic we must all be led where the Word and the Spirit leads us....it's sort of a bit of a journey...

 

[Davy]

....

Anyway, I thought I might start a thread and ask the two big questions that I'm "sticking" on. It might lead to more, but these are the ones that I can't quite find good answers to....

The first one: Teachers for the Rapture always say that God will take us out of the world before pouring out his wrath on it. They cite passages such as: 1 Thess 1:10, 1 Thess 5:9, Luke 21:36. All about escaping the coming wrath. My question is this: I can find nowhere that states that this 'wrath' must be judgement poured out in the Tribulation. In fact, in context, it seems much more likely that what is being talked about is both wrath and judgement of ultimate finality. In some passages it talks of them being under wrath but us having ultimate salvation, for example:
For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ - 1 Thessalonians 5:9

And: Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. - John 3:36
Then if we look at some others in context:
What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction - Romans 9:22.......and we know that "destruction" means eternal punishment, not the Tribulation trials because....They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. - 2 Thessalonians 1:9–10

Again:
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. - Romans 2:5

Anyway, there are more, but you catch my drift. And no matter how I look, I can't seem to find an author of pastor who addresses this. They all just assume that the "coming wrath" is the Tribulation period and not the righteous judgement due to them for their sin. And I find that unsatisfactory in the least. Can anyone here give a good, biblical reason for this assumption?

The first problem is with teachers that preach a Pre-trib Rapture. There is no history of the Church teaching that doctrine prior to the 1800's. The Church being raptured prior to the tribulation is their basis of interpreting the time of God's wrath.

The second problem is their lack of understanding Scripture of how God destroyed while protecting His servants. His servants didn't go anywhere, like His passover in Egypt. Even with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego cast into the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary, and coming out unharmed, that serves as an example of how God protects His Own. It will be the same when He pours out His consuming fire wrath upon the wicked at the end of this world. It will not harm His faithful Church that remains faithful to Christ Jesus (Isaiah 33:14-16).

Their misteaching of 1 Thess.5:9 completely disregards the timing Paul was teaching about in the first 4 verses of that Chapter. The "sudden destruction" of verse 3 is that event of God's wrath timed for the "day of the Lord". That "day of the Lord" destruction event Paul was pulling from the OT Book of Isaiah. That is where we were shown about God ending this present world by His destruction. We're even given examples of how it will come suddenly, at an instant, which also is where Paul got that "sudden" idea. Just the fact that Paul was teaching from the OT prophets about that final day of this world should have been enough to know what timing he was pointing to in 1 Thess.5.

Another problem is the teaching of a Pre-trib Rapture theory is like political correctness doctrine. It has become popular. Many brethren don't stop to check it out in God's Word, nor do most study enough of God's Word to realize where Apostle Paul was teaching from about that time of destruction of 1 Thess.5.

Another problem is that our Lord Jesus warned that He comes "as a thief", which is a metaphor He used about the day of His coming for His Church (Rev.16:15). It is also the metaphor that Apostles Paul and Peter used for the time of the "day of the Lord" which is to come "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5; 2 Peter 3:10).

Also, Peter showed that "day of the Lord" is the day when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth. That means an end to the tribulation and reign of the wicked on this earth. But since this has been a problem for the Pre-trib Rapture school, they now brainwash their followers into thinking that "day of the Lord" begins prior... to the tribulation, when it happens to end the tribulation.

 

[Davy]

....

Right...question two: They also seem to, as far as I can tell, assume that the phrase "the Day of the Lord" means the Tribulation period. How do they arrive at that? The OT seems a little more...liberal (and I hate using that word, by the way!) in it's usage of the phrase. And by that I mean that it seems to employ the phrase when speaking of a time of judgement coming upon the people of God. But even with that more ambiguous usage, I'm still left wondering how you get a very definite period out of it, to the exclusion of his second return. Especially considering that the NT seems to use it much more strictly. The NT writers seem intent on using it in a way that "day" actually means "day", and that day will actually see Christ's return, not just his judgement fall. So....I'm left wondering how dispensational scholars decide to throw all the verses together and come out with "the Day of the Lord" is the Tribulation period, and not his second advent. To me, it doesn't make sense, and it doesn't echo scripture soundly.

Any takers? Hoping for a good, solid, sensible, biblical conversation....thanks.

They misteach that because of Jesus teaching about His coming "as a thief" to gather His Church. At the end of Matthew 24 our Lord Jesus showed how that if the servant had known in what watch the thief would come, then they wouldn't have allowed him to break in. And He compared that event to one not on watch being drunken, which Apostle Paul did the same in his 1 Thess.5 comparison.

Matt 24:42-43
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
KJV

Matt 24:48-50
48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
KJV


Mark 13:35-37
35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning:
36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
KJV

1 Thess 5:2-6
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
KJV

Rev 3:3
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
KJV

Rev 16:15-17
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
KJV

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You don't need to be skeptical of my intentions. I wish I could sit back and chuckle gleefully to myself in sure knowledge of what I believe to be absolutely true, and lie in wait to poke holes in others' ideas. It would be somewhat unChristian of me, but it would be more..."comfortable" than the frustrating state I seem to always find myself. Which is this....I find good, valid points on many sides, and flaws on many sides. Sometimes I think I might come to a conclusion, but then something else will come to mind...as I read my bible, or listen to a sermon, or see something transpire in the world. And so back I go...reading, praying, listening. I dig, and dig, and then get to a point where I find I need to ask for opinions...so here I am. Is that legitimate enough for you? Because it's quite sincere. Listening to sermons or reading books are all well and good, but when you have a question about a particular thing, they don't tend to answer back!!

I'll be perfectly honest with you. If I had to pick an end times theology...the one that I "liked" the most...the one that I wanted to be true the most. I'd definitely pick Dispensationalism. Who wouldn't? We get Raptured out of here before all the freaky, bad stuff goes down? Sign me up!! Added to that, my Grandparents were Dispensationalist and they were the sweetest, kindest, most wonderful people who lived for "the blessed hope", so I kind of have a soft spot for it anyway. Plus....dispensationalists have this wonderful....optimism, going forward. How can they not? Every time something bad happens, it's just one step closer to being lifted up on the clouds. So...yes, I see the appeal of it.

But I do struggle with some of the ways they...read into scripture...things that don't seem evident to me. If you went into it without a firm dispensational understanding...would you see it? And truly, I'm not trying to do the "Ha! Gottcha!" thing here. If you can show me...please do...I'm looking for it. But I've gone over it a lot. Some of it I can step back from and go "you know what...there could be a gap of 7 years here, just because it doesn't say there is, doesn't mean there's not...the OT guys didn't know Jesus would have 2 comings, so it could be the same for us." But I'm really struggling with the two question posed above...and I don't think they're unreasonable. And as the asker of the question....I don't think I have to then go on and prove the opposite of what I asked. I asked because I want to know what YOU think.

I'm like you, Naomi. I find places on all sides where I think they are trying to support their view and using a scripture they shouldn't to do so. I absolutely think those counted worthy will escape that time of testing coming on the whole world, but I think some verses are used wrongly.

I think if I need more testing to come out pure, He will see to what's best for me. And I think if I'm counted worthy it will be because He determines I've had enough testing. Either way, what He determines will be the very best for me.

 

[Nancy]

Oh, it most certainly can be tricky when you're just starting to dip your toes into it! It can be tricky even after you've been swimming in the eschatalogical pool for some time! Just when you think you've got all the terms and positions lined up, someone will pop up with something new and shake you again. Or someone from an 'old' school of thought will manage to say something in a way that makes you think about it again from a whole new angle!
But here's my personal theory....we're not SUPPOSED to stop thinking about it!! The topic is one of the most exciting ones on earth...Jesus Christ's return! So I just don't think it can be wrong to be constantly noodling it over in the back of our minds...running through the bible verses that touch on the topic and how they inter-relate and sit together. How the different positions sit with the overall message of the gospel and what Christ came to do for us.
And yes...I totally get your desire to have someone run through it all with you...that's one of the reasons I came to this board. So often people in the Church just don't want to talk about it, which I think is disappointing. But, the problem we have here, of course, is, most people already have 'landed' somewhere, and therefore may not want to just run through it all in a neutral-like way. Sometimes we try, but we all have loaded back-packs we lug into our thought processes. But...you are always free to message me if you want to ask me anything or my opinion on something...I'll do my best not to 'sway' you too much! I think on this issue and topic we must all be led where the Word and the Spirit leads us....it's sort of a bit of a journey...

Yeah, super tricky stuff and yes also very exciting! My beliefs have been shaken quite a bit since being on this forum, yet only one issue has ever shaken my "faith"...and we have enough threads on this certain doctrine so, not gonna go into it! lol. It is very dissapointing that the Churchs do not teach on this as it's HUGE! My guess is that it is too controversial maybe? Or, they themselves are not cemented in it as yet, lol. And, I do believe you are correct that we are not meant to stop thinking on "these things". We are to seek the things of God diligently and, this is where another person or persons would help.
Thank you for your offer Naomi and, I will probably drive you nuts once I really start getting into it! ♥

 

[Davy]

Yeah, super tricky stuff and yes also very exciting! My beliefs have been shaken quite a bit since being on this forum, yet only one issue has ever shaken my "faith"...and we have enough threads on this certain doctrine so, not gonna go into it! lol. It is very dissapointing that the Churchs do not teach on this as it's HUGE! My guess is that it is too controversial maybe? Or, they themselves are not cemented in it as yet, lol. And, I do believe you are correct that we are not meant to stop thinking on "these things". We are to seek the things of God diligently and, this is where another person or persons would help.
Thank you for your offer Naomi and, I will probably drive you nuts once I really start getting into it! ♥

Can't give us a hint what that issue is?

 

[Nancy]

Can't give us a hint what that issue is?

Oh gosh...lol. Okay if you must know, it is the T.U.L.I.P. doctrine of Calvinism.

 

[Davy]

Oh gosh...lol. Okay if you must know, it is the T.U.L.I.P. doctrine of Calvinism.

Too much absolutism for me in either side of that doctrine. It's like two extremists fighting over which came first, the egg or the chicken. (Of course the chicken won.)

 

[Copperhead]

The first one: Teachers for the Rapture always say that God will take us out of the world before pouring out his wrath on it. They cite passages such as: 1 Thess 1:10, 1 Thess 5:9, Luke 21:36.

Yeah many do tend to stick only with the classic NT passages. I like to use the OT references to show a pre-trib position. After all, no matter what position on these things a person holds, according to the evidentiary requirement of both the OT and NT it must be supported fully from both OT and NT.

You seem to be focused on "wrath". Let's look at this another way. The destruction of all land life on the earth except Noah and his family, was that destruction not the punishing wrath of Yahweh? And was not Noah sealed inside the ark before that wrath occurred? The actual word "wrath" did not show up till the 49th chapter of Genesis.

Was not the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah the punishing wrath of Yahweh? And was not Lot and his family removed from the area before the wrath was poured out on the cities? But "wrath" didn't show up for another 36 chapters.

The idea of a pre-trib removal before things go down is not without precedence in scripture.

 

[Copperhead]

The first problem is with teachers that preach a Pre-trib Rapture. There is no history of the Church teaching that doctrine prior to the 1800's. The Church being raptured prior to the tribulation is their basis of interpreting the time of God's wrath.

And that is patently not true. There are examples back to the 4th century at least. Many from the 1400's. Even the 1599 Geneva Bible translates 2 Thessalonians 2:3 in such a way to imply a pre-trib removal of the righteous. Matter of fact, virtually all translations prior to the KJV do similar. Some folks really have "Darby on the brain" and give the guy far more credit that he deserves. He probably systematized the idea, but he hardly came up with it as it was a concept for at least 1000 years prior to Darby.

And there is a lot more to it that just interpreting the start of the Lord's wrath. It also is in relation to when the antichrist is revealed and several other conditions. And there is as much or more support from the OT for the pre-trib idea.

Pre-Trib, just like any other position promoted, has to be supported fully from both the OT and NT as per the requirement of the scripture. Each one individually but nether exclusive of the other. And while many will attack the pre-trib position, they offer very little definitive support from the OT regarding alternative positions. Sad to say, many folks have no clue the OT even addresses the issue of the removal of the righteous.

 

[Nancy]

Too much absolutism for me in either side of that doctrine. It's like two extremists fighting over which came first, the egg or the chicken. (Of course the chicken won.)

Lol

 

[charity]

Two Particular Problems With Dispensationalism

Hi guys! I'm hoping I might be able to pick the brains of some dispensationalist.

Anyway, I thought I might start a thread and ask the two big questions that I'm "sticking" on. It might lead to more, but these are the ones that I can't quite find good answers to....

The first one: Teachers for the Rapture always say that God will take us out of the world before pouring out his wrath on it. They cite passages such as: 1 Thess 1:10, 1 Thess 5:9, Luke 21:36. All about escaping the coming wrath. My question is this: I can find nowhere that states that this 'wrath' must be judgement poured out in the Tribulation. In fact, in context, it seems much more likely that what is being talked about is both wrath and judgement of ultimate finality. In some passages it talks of them being under wrath but us having ultimate salvation, for example:

For God has not destined us for wrath,
but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ
1 Thessalonians 5:9

Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life;
whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life,
but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 3:36

- Then if we look at some others in context:

What if God, desiring to show His wrath and to make known His power,
has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction -
Romans 9:22.......
(and we know that "destruction" means eternal punishment, not the Tribulation trials because)
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction,
away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His might,
when He comes on that day to be glorified in His saints,
and to be marveled at among all who have believed,
because our testimony to you was believed. -
2 Thessalonians 1:9–10

- Again:
But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself
on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed.
Romans 2:5

Anyway, there are more, but you catch my drift. And no matter how I look, I can't seem to find an author of pastor who addresses this. They all just assume that the "coming wrath" is the Tribulation period and not the righteous judgement due to them for their sin. And I find that unsatisfactory in the least. Can anyone here give a good, biblical reason for this assumption?

question two: They also seem to, as far as I can tell, assume that the phrase "the Day of the Lord" means the Tribulation period. How do they arrive at that? The OT seems a little more...liberal (and I hate using that word, by the way!) in it's usage of the phrase. And by that I mean that it seems to employ the phrase when speaking of a time of judgement coming upon the people of God. But even with that more ambiguous usage, I'm still left wondering how you get a very definite period out of it, to the exclusion of his second return. Especially considering that the NT seems to use it much more strictly. The NT writers seem intent on using it in a way that "day" actually means "day", and that day will actually see Christ's return, not just his judgement fall. So....I'm left wondering how dispensational scholars decide to throw all the verses together and come out with "the Day of the Lord" is the Tribulation period, and not his second advent. To me, it doesn't make sense, and it doesn't echo scripture soundly.

Any takers? Hoping for a good, solid, sensible, biblical conversation....thanks.

Hello @Naomi25,

I am a dispensationalist, an Acts 28 dispensationalist; however, I do not understand why these two 'problems' you have raised should be attributed to dispensationalism particularly.

The two problems:-
1) The pouring out of God's wrath - When? tribulation period or final judgement?
2) 'The day of the Lord' - to what is it referring?

* These are just my thoughts:-

* The early epistles of Paul were written during the approx. 40 years covered by the book of the Acts of the Apostles, yes? During which the door for Israel's national repentance, recognition and acknowledgement of the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah was wide open: and the ministry of the Twelve particularly and Paul, in part during that period, was directed towards that goal - and 'Thy kingdom come'.

* God had, through the preaching of Peter in Acts 3:19-26, made the call for Israel to repent, in order for Christ to return, and the times of refreshing to come from the presence of the Lord.

* What was taking place at Pentecost was declared to be the fulfilment of the prophecy of the prophet Joel (Acts 2:21), referring to - 'the day of the Lord'. That day was to begin by the pouring out of spiritual gifts, and the manifestation of the Spirit's powers: and - it had begun. The day of the Lord had indeed drawn nigh, and in the name of the Lord it was being proclaimed. Judgement was about to 'begin at the house of God' (1 Peter 4:17)

* The earlier epistles of Paul, and that of Peter, James, John and Jude, and their content must be read with this knowledge in mind. They were not written with you and I in mind, but those of Israel, in that generation, for whom the judgement had the potential to be 'at hand'.

* In the first of his epistles Paul had written to the Thessalonian believers (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), referring to them as 'firstfruits', and telling them that at the sending of Jesus Christ, the dead in Christ should first rise, and then they who were alive should 'be caught up together with them' (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). These would indeed have been the 'firstfruits' of which James speaks in his Epistle (1:18). They were waiting for Christ's return.

* In Acts 17 we are told that Paul went to the synagogue of the Jews at Thessalonica, and reasoned with them out of the Scriptures. He was not founding a church, with it's services, and institutions, No, He ministered the Scriptures to these attendant Jews, it was they who were the 'firstfruits' of the nation, along with all like them. It is they who would be 'caught up' to meet the Lord in the air, and be delivered from the wrath to come. However Israel as a nation did not repent, the Lord did not therefore return: all is in abeyance until a future day.

* What is that wrath? Is it not that of which Peter spoke at Pentecost:-

'But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all His prophets,
that Christ should suffer, He hath so fulfilled.
.. Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
.... that your sins may be blotted out,
...... when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ,
.. which before was preached unto you:
.... Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
...... which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers,
.. "A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;
.... Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say unto you.
...... And it shall come to pass,
........ that every soul, which will not hear that prophet,
.......... shall be destroyed from among the people.
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after,
.. as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers,
.. saying unto Abraham,"And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed."
Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you,
in turning away every one of you from His iniquities.'

* I am, like you Naomi25, thinking through this whole matter, so please bear with my reasoning.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Two Particular Problems With Dispensationalism


Hello @Naomi25,

I am a dispensationalist, an Acts 28 dispensationalist; however, I do not understand why these two 'problems' you have raised should be attributed to dispensationalism particularly.

The two problems:-
1) The pouring out of God's wrath - When? tribulation period or final judgement?
2) 'The day of the Lord' - to what is it referring?

* These are just my thoughts:-

* The early epistles of Paul were written during the approx. 40 years covered by the book of the Acts of the Apostles, yes? During which the door for Israel's national repentance, recognition and acknowledgement of the Lord Jesus Christ as their Messiah was wide open: and the ministry of the Twelve particularly and Paul, in part during that period, was directed towards that goal - and 'Thy kingdom come'.

* God had, through the preaching of Peter in Acts 3:19-26, made the call for Israel to repent, in order for Christ to return, and the times of refreshing to come from the presence of the Lord.

* What was taking place at Pentecost was declared to be the fulfilment of the prophecy of the prophet Joel (Acts 2:21), referring to - 'the day of the Lord'. That day was to begin by the pouring out of spiritual gifts, and the manifestation of the Spirit's powers: and - it had begun. The day of the Lord had indeed drawn nigh, and in the name of the Lord it was being proclaimed. Judgement was about to 'begin at the house of God' (1 Peter 4:17)

* The earlier epistles of Paul, and that of Peter, James, John and Jude, and their content must be read with this knowledge in mind. They were not written with you and I in mind, but those of Israel, in that generation, for whom the judgement had the potential to be 'at hand'.

* In the first of his epistles Paul had written to the Thessalonian believers (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18), referring to them as 'firstfruits', and telling them that at the sending of Jesus Christ, the dead in Christ should first rise, and then they who were alive should 'be caught up together with them' (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18). These would indeed have been the 'firstfruits' of which James speaks in his Epistle (1:18). They were waiting for Christ's return.

* In Acts 17 we are told that Paul went to the synagogue of the Jews at Thessalonica, and reasoned with them out of the Scriptures. He was not founding a church, with it's services, and institutions, No, He ministered the Scriptures to these attendant Jews, it was they who were the 'firstfruits' of the nation, along with all like them. It is they who would be 'caught up' to meet the Lord in the air, and be delivered from the wrath to come. However Israel as a nation did not repent, the Lord did not therefore return: all is in abeyance until a future day.

* What is that wrath? Is it not that of which Peter spoke at Pentecost:-

'But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all His prophets,
that Christ should suffer, He hath so fulfilled.
.. Repent ye therefore, and be converted,
.... that your sins may be blotted out,
...... when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
And He shall send Jesus Christ,
.. which before was preached unto you:
.... Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things,
...... which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
For Moses truly said unto the fathers,
.. "A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me;
.... Him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever He shall say unto you.
...... And it shall come to pass,
........ that every soul, which will not hear that prophet,
.......... shall be destroyed from among the people.
Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after,
.. as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.
Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers,
.. saying unto Abraham,"And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed."
Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you,
in turning away every one of you from His iniquities.'

* I am, like you Naomi25, thinking through this whole matter, so please bear with my reasoning.

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Good morning charity! I read your posts often, but I don't really think we've ever talked with each other.

I understand what you have said here but don't you think vs. 30 and onward in Joel 2 refers to an even further future time?
(Like when Jesus read from Isaiah and stopped mid passage?)

 

[charity]

Good morning charity! I read your posts often, but I don't really think we've ever talked with each other.

I understand what you have said here but don't you think vs. 30 and onward in Joel 2 refers to an even further future time?
(Like when Jesus read from Isaiah and stopped mid passage?)

Hello there, @stunnedbygrace,

No, I don't think we have talked to each other before. It's good to hear you.

'And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth,
.. blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
The sun shall be turned into darkness,
.. and the moon into blood,
.... before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
And it shall come to pass,
.. that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered:
.... for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance,
...... as the LORD hath said,
........ and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.'
(Joel 2:30-32)

* Yes, I believe it does have a future application: though the potential for it's fulfilment was there; as with the rest of that quotation from Joel, spoken by Peter in Acts 3. All was conditional on Israel's repentance.

* In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, ...

'But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren,
.. concerning them which are asleep,
.... that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again,
.. even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord,
.. that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord
.... shall not prevent them which are asleep.
For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
.. with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:
.... and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Then we which are alive and remain
.. shall be caught up together with them in the clouds,
.... to meet the Lord in the air:
...... and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.'

* ... Paul was confirming what the Lord had said in Matthew 24, 'Immediately after the tribulation of those days', (which would have taken place during those forty years of probation covered by the Acts of the Apostles; the wonders in heaven and on earth would have been seen, as already foretold by Joel (Joel 2:30-31), which Peter declared to be 'that' which was signified and foretold on the Day of Pentecost):

'then shall be seen the sign of the Son of Man in heaven,
.. then shall all the tribes of the land mourn,
.... and they shall see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven,
...... with power and great glory.
And He shall send His angels with a trumpet [yes]
.. a great sounding [trumpet],
.... and they shall gather together His elect out of the four winds
...... from one end of heaven to the other.'
(Matt. 24:29-31).

* I don't know about you, but I feel very much as though I am seeing through a glass darkly with these things. :)

Thank you.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Davy]

And that is patently not true. There are examples back to the 4th century at least. Many from the 1400's. Even the 1599 Geneva Bible translates 2 Thessalonians 2:3 in such a way to imply a pre-trib removal of the righteous. Matter of fact, virtually all translations prior to the KJV do similar. Some folks really have "Darby on the brain" and give the guy far more credit that he deserves. He probably systematized the idea, but he hardly came up with it as it was a concept for at least 1000 years prior to Darby.

But it is true, their interpretation of the time of wrath event Paul spoke of in 1 Thess.5 is based... on their Pre-trib Rapture theory. Exactly how that is, is this - since Paul says we the Church are not appointed to that wrath, they apply that as happening during the tribulation upon those not saved, because they think the Church will already be raptured to heaven by then. But the wrath timing Paul is teaching there in 1 Thess.5 is for the 'last day' of this world when Jesus returns on the "day of the Lord" to fight with His army at Armageddon and end the reign of Antichrist. So Paul in 1 Thess.5 was actually teaching us about the events leading up to that final day of this world, when the "day of the Lord" will occur with Jesus' 2nd coming. Peter confirms this also in 2 Peter 3:10, because he showed on that "day of the Lord" is when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth. That means an end to the tribulation and the Antichrist.

And there is a lot more to it that just interpreting the start of the Lord's wrath. It also is in relation to when the antichrist is revealed and several other conditions. And there is as much or more support from the OT for the pre-trib idea.

No, not really, because the wrath Paul teaching in 1 Thess.5 is about the cup of wrath poured out in the 'air' on the final day of this world, i.e., the 7th Vial. That is when that "sudden destruction" will happen, surprising the wicked who instead will be saying, "Peace and safety". What the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine does is to remove those earlier events Paul was teaching there like the "sudden destruction", etc., and instead apply it to the tribulation days. Nope, "sudden destruction" event means trib is over, ended, and the wicked are suddenly shocked like the OT prophets teach.

 

[farouk]

Oh, it most certainly can be tricky when you're just starting to dip your toes into it! It can be tricky even after you've been swimming in the eschatalogical pool for some time! Just when you think you've got all the terms and positions lined up, someone will pop up with something new and shake you again. Or someone from an 'old' school of thought will manage to say something in a way that makes you think about it again from a whole new angle!
But here's my personal theory....we're not SUPPOSED to stop thinking about it!! The topic is one of the most exciting ones on earth...Jesus Christ's return! So I just don't think it can be wrong to be constantly noodling it over in the back of our minds...running through the bible verses that touch on the topic and how they inter-relate and sit together. How the different positions sit with the overall message of the gospel and what Christ came to do for us.
And yes...I totally get your desire to have someone run through it all with you...that's one of the reasons I came to this board. So often people in the Church just don't want to talk about it, which I think is disappointing. But, the problem we have here, of course, is, most people already have 'landed' somewhere, and therefore may not want to just run through it all in a neutral-like way. Sometimes we try, but we all have loaded back-packs we lug into our thought processes. But...you are always free to message me if you want to ask me anything or my opinion on something...I'll do my best not to 'sway' you too much! I think on this issue and topic we must all be led where the Word and the Spirit leads us....it's sort of a bit of a journey...

I guess a lot is clarified if a particular passage is understood in its context of speaking of either the church or of Israel.

 

[Naomi25]

The first problem is with teachers that preach a Pre-trib Rapture. There is no history of the Church teaching that doctrine prior to the 1800's. The Church being raptured prior to the tribulation is their basis of interpreting the time of God's wrath.

The second problem is their lack of understanding Scripture of how God destroyed while protecting His servants. His servants didn't go anywhere, like His passover in Egypt. Even with Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego cast into the hot fiery furnace heated seven times hotter than necessary, and coming out unharmed, that serves as an example of how God protects His Own. It will be the same when He pours out His consuming fire wrath upon the wicked at the end of this world. It will not harm His faithful Church that remains faithful to Christ Jesus (Isaiah 33:14-16).

Their misteaching of 1 Thess.5:9 completely disregards the timing Paul was teaching about in the first 4 verses of that Chapter. The "sudden destruction" of verse 3 is that event of God's wrath timed for the "day of the Lord". That "day of the Lord" destruction event Paul was pulling from the OT Book of Isaiah. That is where we were shown about God ending this present world by His destruction. We're even given examples of how it will come suddenly, at an instant, which also is where Paul got that "sudden" idea. Just the fact that Paul was teaching from the OT prophets about that final day of this world should have been enough to know what timing he was pointing to in 1 Thess.5.

Another problem is the teaching of a Pre-trib Rapture theory is like political correctness doctrine. It has become popular. Many brethren don't stop to check it out in God's Word, nor do most study enough of God's Word to realize where Apostle Paul was teaching from about that time of destruction of 1 Thess.5.

Another problem is that our Lord Jesus warned that He comes "as a thief", which is a metaphor He used about the day of His coming for His Church (Rev.16:15). It is also the metaphor that Apostles Paul and Peter used for the time of the "day of the Lord" which is to come "as a thief in the night" (1 Thess.5; 2 Peter 3:10).

Also, Peter showed that "day of the Lord" is the day when God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth. That means an end to the tribulation and reign of the wicked on this earth. But since this has been a problem for the Pre-trib Rapture school, they now brainwash their followers into thinking that "day of the Lord" begins prior... to the tribulation, when it happens to end the tribulation.

Good post :cool:

 

[Naomi25]

I'm like you, Naomi. I find places on all sides where I think they are trying to support their view and using a scripture they shouldn't to do so. I absolutely think those counted worthy will escape that time of testing coming on the whole world, but I think some verses are used wrongly.

I think if I need more testing to come out pure, He will see to what's best for me. And I think if I'm counted worthy it will be because He determines I've had enough testing. Either way, what He determines will be the very best for me.

Sometimes I wonder if, when it comes to the end and we all get to know 'who was right'...we won't find out that we all were...sort of! And by that I mean, perhaps each 'end times' scenario has a bit of truth in it, and then flies off the handle! Perhaps it's just that we haven't managed to harmonize them yet?
Of course, that's unlikely...but yes, sometimes I do wonder how so many 'honest to goodness Christians' could be wrong about such a major doctrine. And by major, I'm not talking Salvation wise...I'm just saying that the return of Christ is an exciting, important topic. But, even if it turns out that the Dispensationalists were wrong...or us Amillennialists...I know we're all still Christians. But ONE of us has to have it pretty darn wrong! So I can't help wondering if there's a more...middle ground. But then...I start wondering if that's where compromise is...and compromise is a dirty word!
Sometimes I think too much! Maybe that's my problem