What Do You Learn from Debate?

[CoreIssue]

Thank you.

Do I understand correctly that if you think all scripture is spirit, none of it is to be taken literally? Please correct me if I've got that wrong.

As far as there being 'no more male or female' do you mean from Galatians 3:28? Does that mean there is also no more Jew or Greek, slave nor free? This verse just means "for you are all one in Christ Jesus" as the rest of the same verse says.

I appreciate your explanation ~

It does not say the words are spirit. That completely changes the meaning.

The actual meaning is the intent.

Notice again the actual verse "being referenced is never posted. Just the interpretation.
John 6:63 New International Version (NIV)
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

 

[CoreIssue]

You're starting to sound like a tattle tail.

What does that mean?

 

[illini1959]

It does not say the words are spirit. That completely changes the meaning.

The actual meaning is the intent.

Notice again the actual verse "being referenced is never posted. Just the interpretation.
John 6:63 New International Version (NIV)
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

Oh, I know. I'm trying to draw out what the poster thinks it says/means. Also why I pointed out "and life."

Yep, always post the verse ;)

Thanks!

 

[CoreIssue]

Oh, I know. I'm trying to draw out what the poster thinks it says/means. Also why I pointed out "and life."

Yep, always post the verse ;)

Thanks!

I understand.

I kick in things because they feel compelled to respond to me.


Just a little help in your effort.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Oh, I know. I'm trying to draw out what the poster thinks it says/means. Also why I pointed out "and life."

Yep, always post the verse ;)

Thanks!

Yes, I know the rest of the verse. But I was talking about the Spirit part.

It doesn't say: the words I give you, they are the letter and life.

It is the spirit that avails a man.

 

[illini1959]

Yes, I know the rest of the verse. But I was talking about the Spirit part.

It doesn't say: the words I give you, they are the letter and life.

It is the spirit that avails a man.

So, still wondering - do you take that to mean all of His words are "spirit" and not to be taken literally?

Also what your thoughts are on Gal 3:28......

Thanks -

 

[stunnedbygrace]

So, still wondering - do you take that to mean all of His words are "spirit" and not to be taken literally?

Also what your thoughts are on Gal 3:28......

Thanks -

You can take any of His words literally. You can take you shall not murder to mean physically kill someone. In that case, you will be deceived into thinking you have never murdered and will say you have always kept that commandment. You are free to go that way if you want, but its not walking in truth. the letter kills. It is the spirit that gives life.

I think gal 3:28 means what it says. We, (believers) are no more to think of each other as Jew or gentiles, slave or free, male or female, but as one body.

If Paul were to reverse that and then say women may not speak in a gathering, he would be an unstable teacher, contradicting himself And saying we WERE to think of each other as male and female.

 

[illini1959]

You can take any of His words literally. You can take you shall not murder to mean physically kill someone. In that case, you will be deceived into thinking you have never murdered and will say you have always kept that commandment. You are free to go that way if you want, but its not walking in truth. the letter kills. It is the spirit that gives life.

How am I "deceived" into thinking I've never murdered anyone if I haven't?

I do not understand your take on scripture.

I think gal 3:28 means what it says. We, (believers) are no more to think of each other as Jew or gentiles, slave or free, male or female, but as one body.

If Paul were to reverse that and then say women may not speak in a gathering, he would be an unstable teacher, contradicting himself And saying we WERE to think of each other as male and female.

We ARE male and female. We were created male and female. Galatians 3 doesn't remove gender or ethnicity it just means we are all one in Christ.

What do you do with verses referring to men, women, wives and husbands?

Who is Paul saying shouldn't speak in churches? The word "woman" in 1 Cor 14:34 means "woman"....

 

[stunnedbygrace]

How am I "deceived" into thinking I've never murdered anyone if I haven't?

I do not understand your take on scripture.



We ARE male and female. We were created male and female. Galatians 3 doesn't remove gender or ethnicity it just means we are all one in Christ.

What do you do with verses referring to men, women, wives and husbands?

Who is Paul saying shouldn't speak in churches? The word "woman" in 1 Cor 14:34 means "woman"....

Jesus said if you are angry at your brother without cause, you have murdered him.

 

[illini1959]

Jesus said if you are angry at your brother without cause, you have murdered him.

See, context and proper definition is key when reading the Word.

"murdered" in this verse means -

STRONGS NT 443: ἀνθρωποκτόνος

ἀνθρωποκτόνος, ἀνθρωποκτονον (κτείνω to kill), a manslayer, murderer: contextually, to be deemed equal to a murderer, 1 John 3:15.

Whereas Exodus 20:13 means to actually murder/slay -

Strong's Concordance 7523
ratsach: to murder, slay
Original Word: רָצַח
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ratsach
Phonetic Spelling: (raw-tsakh')
Definition: to murder, slay

murder, slay, with premeditation

Reading at strictly face value can lead one to false meaning, doctrine. That's why we're told to "study (endeavor) to show ourselves approved..."

 

[ScottA]

What does that mean?

That was my way of not being as critical as is really called for. It was a warning.

Your position is based on your own feelings and what you have apparently come to believe from your limited understanding, and you have made an occupation out of amplifying that limited resource; and whenever it is challenged even with scripture, you deny the scriptures (if they don't come in the way you are accustom) and become belligerent unbecoming a Christian with classic behavioral practices, such as those used by "tattletails."

A tattletail is someone who attempts to pull rank when they actually don't have any, which often ends in their own punishment.

 

[CoreIssue]

That was my way of not being as critical as is really called for. It was a warning.

Your position is based on your own feelings and what you have apparently come to believe from your limited understanding, and you have made an occupation out of amplifying that limited resource; and whenever it is challenged even with scripture, you deny the scriptures (if they don't come in the way you are accustom) and become belligerent unbecoming a Christian with classic behavioral practices, such as those used by "tattletails."

A tattletail is someone who attempts to pull rank when they actually don't have any, which often ends in their own punishment.

You are nothing but critical.

When I say is based on Scripture. That thing you refuse to quote.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

See, context and proper definition is key when reading the Word.

"murdered" in this verse means -

STRONGS NT 443: ἀνθρωποκτόνος

ἀνθρωποκτόνος, ἀνθρωποκτονον (κτείνω to kill), a manslayer, murderer: contextually, to be deemed equal to a murderer, 1 John 3:15.

Whereas Exodus 20:13 means to actually murder/slay -

Strong's Concordance 7523
ratsach: to murder, slay
Original Word: רָצַח
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ratsach
Phonetic Spelling: (raw-tsakh')
Definition: to murder, slay

murder, slay, with premeditation

Reading at strictly face value can lead one to false meaning, doctrine. That's why we're told to "study (endeavor) to show ourselves approved..."

See, context and proper definition is key when reading the Word.

"murdered" in this verse means -

STRONGS NT 443: ἀνθρωποκτόνος

ἀνθρωποκτόνος, ἀνθρωποκτονον (κτείνω to kill), a manslayer, murderer: contextually, to be deemed equal to a murderer, 1 John 3:15.

Whereas Exodus 20:13 means to actually murder/slay -

Strong's Concordance 7523
ratsach: to murder, slay
Original Word: רָצַח
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ratsach
Phonetic Spelling: (raw-tsakh')
Definition: to murder, slay

murder, slay, with premeditation

Reading at strictly face value can lead one to false meaning, doctrine. That's why we're told to "study (endeavor) to show ourselves approved..."

You are quite a lawyer!

So Jesus was saying: if you have anger in your heart at your brother, you have already murdered him, but not really, but it doesn't matter because in Gods eyes, you are equal to a murderer?

Okay, so you are equal to a murderer. Now what? And if you've ever, ever, looked on a woman with lust in your heart, I suppose we will want to be careful to say you are not really an adulterer, you are just equal to one?

Some men sin outwardly. Other men hide their sin in their heart. Oh wait...I suppose we will want to say...some men sin outwardly while others don't sin but are equal to a sinner?

 

[ScottA]

You are nothing but critical.

When I say is based on Scripture. That thing you refuse to quote.

Yes, and I will continue to be critical with one who does not know a quote of scripture from "a quote of scripture."

But saying that what you say is based on scripture, does not necessarily mean it is based on scripture...especially when you come off like Nicodemus, to whom Christ answered, "Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?" John 3:10 My reaction to you is the same as Jesus' to Nicodemus, because, you like him, have studied much, but know very little.

 

[illini1959]

You are quite a lawyer!

So Jesus was saying: if you have anger in your heart at your brother, you have already murdered him, but not really, but it doesn't matter because in Gods eyes, you are equal to a murderer?

Okay, so you are equal to a murderer. Now what? And if you've ever, ever, looked on a woman with lust in your heart, I suppose we will want to be careful to say you are not really an adulterer, you are just equal to one?

Some men sin outwardly. Other men hide their sin in their heart. Oh wait...I suppose we will want to say...some men sin outwardly while others don't sin but are equal to a sinner?

Not a lawyer by any stretch ;) but I've learned over the past 50 years that often a deeper look at scripture is needed to properly understand it. Just like our language has words with many different meanings and nuances, likewise with Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic.

Of course I don't mean that 'it doesn't matter', just wanted to point out it doesn't mean one has actually committed murder if he hates his brother.

I was speaking more to the approach taken in your post, e.g., "You are free to go that way if you want, but its not walking in truth. the letter kills. It is the spirit that gives life."

The 'letter' is the means God chose to use as He inspired men to write what became our Bible :)

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Not a lawyer by any stretch ;) but I've learned over the past 50 years that often a deeper look at scripture is needed to properly understand it. Just like our language has words with many different meanings and nuances, likewise with Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic.

Of course I don't mean that 'it doesn't matter', just wanted to point out it doesn't mean one has actually committed murder if he hates his brother.

I was speaking more to the approach taken in your post, e.g., "You are free to go that way if you want, but its not walking in truth. the letter kills. It is the spirit that gives life."

The 'letter' is the means God chose to use as He inspired men to write what became our Bible :)

Why does Paul say the letter kills?

 

[ScottA]

See, context and proper definition is key when reading the Word.

"murdered" in this verse means -

STRONGS NT 443: ἀνθρωποκτόνος

ἀνθρωποκτόνος, ἀνθρωποκτονον (κτείνω to kill), a manslayer, murderer: contextually, to be deemed equal to a murderer, 1 John 3:15.

Whereas Exodus 20:13 means to actually murder/slay -

Strong's Concordance 7523
ratsach: to murder, slay
Original Word: רָצַח
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: ratsach
Phonetic Spelling: (raw-tsakh')
Definition: to murder, slay

murder, slay, with premeditation

Reading at strictly face value can lead one to false meaning, doctrine. That's why we're told to "study (endeavor) to show ourselves approved..."

This is another great point, not because it is true, but because it is mostly misunderstood.

The perceived reality of men, is far from the actual reality of God. In this way, what is "actual" is likely not, and what is in or out of context, likely is in error.

First, the only reality that is "actual" is God's reality. On the contrary, the world and everything in it...is "created" and even a mere manifest "image."

As for "context" regarding Christ's words...is there any word of scripture that is not His in context? None. Therefore, "context" here is not applicable. Thus, His words, every one, is spirit and life. "Context" then...pertains only to the dealings of men.

But that is just some of the actual reality regarding the scriptures. There is also the fact that "all language", including the scriptures, has been encrypted...or as it is stated in the scriptures: "confounded" and therefore "must be discerned spiritually." And this is true, because in the world there are both good and evil men who have access to the same scriptures.

So...do not be surprised if every word from God must be interpreted by the Spirit. This is the mystery of tongues.

 

[illini1959]

Why does Paul say the letter kills?

If you could post the verse you're referring to, that would help. Thanks

 

[stunnedbygrace]

2 cor 6

Also, the law is spiritual and good.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Whew! 70 mph wind gusts and quarter sized hail here!