We really CAN'T answer some of these

[Willie T]

First answer to #25;
Jesus told the pharisees in John 10 that they could not believe because he did not die for them.
““I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)
“But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.” (John 10:26)

A very good point for the Calvinistic view, I'd say. But, I want to go read what is between verse 11 and verse 26.

 

[bbyrd009]

First answer to #25;
Jesus told the pharisees in John 10 that they could not believe because he did not die for them.
““I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep.” (John 10:11)
“But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.” (John 10:26)

well then wouldn't they be of the world then, which sins Christ also propitiated for?

 

[CoreIssue]

I really don't know what I may have done. My connection to this forum has been fouling up for two days, and sometimes taking two minutes or more to respond to most any input.

Mine been fowling up too.

Problems have been increasing.

I use the same forum software but mine is fully up to date, this is not. It is pretty far out of date.

Mine is having zero problem.

The issue is either a host server issue or software.

Server software is updated. If the user does not keep their software minimums up there will be problems to the point the software does not work.

If the server host is maintaining improperly, it is time to move to a better host.

Either way the status quo is bad.

 

[Enoch111]

Your words about "presdestine" are out of accord with the Apostle Paul: He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, (Ephesians 1:5)

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will (KJV)

In order to properly understand Gospel truth, we need to firstly determine the precise meaning of words and phrases. Does "unto the adoption of children" mean the same thing as "justified by grace" (saved) or does it mean something else?

The meaning is well expressed (paraphrased) in the New Living Translation:God decided in advance to adopt us into his own family by bringing us to himself through Jesus Christ.

So the question remains? Is adoption the same as justification?

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
Adoption
υἱοθεσία
(Strong's #5206 — Noun Feminine — huiothesia — hwee-oth-es-ee'-ah )
...In Ephesians 1:5 they are said to have been foreordained unto "adoption as sons" through Jesus Christ, RV; the AV, "adoption of children" is a mistranslation and misleading. God does not "adopt" believers as children; they are begotten as such by His Holy Spirit through faith. "Adoption" is a term involving the dignity of the relationship of believers as sons; it is not a putting into the family by spiritual birth, but a putting into the position of sons. In Romans 8:23 the "adoption" of the believer is set forth as still future, as it there includes the redemption of the body, when the living will be changed and those who have fallen asleep will be raised. In Romans 9:4 "adoption" is spoken of as belonging to Israel, in accordance with the statement in Exodus 4:12 , "Israel is My Son." Cp. Hosea 11:1 . Israel was brought into a special relation with God, a collective relationship, not enjoyed by other nations, Deuteronomy 14:1 ; Jeremiah 31:9 , etc.

In the NT "adoption" does not mean the same thing as the common meaning of adoption (children of other parents brought into a different family not related by blood). Since the children of God are born of the Spirit, born of God, born from above SUPERNATURALLY, all believers are children of God through the New Birth (John 1:12,13). But that is not where they remain in eternity. All of God's children are totally transformed into the image of Christ (Rom 8:29,30) and then have the full privileges and standing of heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ (Eph 1:5).

So once again we see that predestination is NOT for salvation (justification) but for (a) perfection and (b) privileges of children of God with the full standing of heirs. And this tells us that Calvinism is false teaching. No one is predestined for salvation or damnation.

 

[Dave L]

well then wouldn't they be of the world then, which sins Christ also propitiated for?

If Christ paid for all sin, why aren't all saved? Answer; he paid only for the sins of the elect. How do you know if you are one of the elect? Answer; you believe the gospel when you hear it.

 

[Dave L]

A very good point for the Calvinistic view, I'd say. But, I want to go read what is between verse 11 and verse 26.

It doesn't change a thing.

 

[tzcho2]

A few weeks ago, I posted a link to a book entitled "75 Questions Your Instructors Pray You will Never Ask,"

I looked up the author , Gary kilgore North , wikipedia calls him a " leading figure in the Christian Reconstructionist/Dominion Theology Movement"--besides that theology not being scriptural, first impressions of the title was "Gonna write me a book with a sensational title & Git me some Moolah!!"

 

[Willie T]

I looked up the author , Gary kilgore North , wikipedia calls him a " leading figure in the Christian Reconstructionist/Dominion Theology Movement"--besides that theology not being scriptural, first impressions of the title was "Gonna write me a book with a sensational title & Git me some Moolah!!"

I've read about six of his books. He is one great writer... though a bit verbose. And he has published a ton more... many of which I have also read.

I especially enjoyed this short article he wrote:

Impeachment Hearings for Kavanaugh
Gary North - October 11, 2018

The Democrats are expected to win a majority in the House of Representatives next month. So, beginning early next year, what can we expect?

I feel confident that we can expect the following: silence regarding the federal deficit, silence regarding the Pentagon's budget, silence regarding Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid. These are bipartisan issues. I don't think any congressperson is campaigning on any of these issues.

The Democrats expect a major turnout in November in response to the confirmation of Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court. That is fresh in people's memories. But it is also fresh and in the memories of Republicans, and they also are likely to show up at the polls. So, the outcome is still up for grabs.

The leaders of the Democratic Party have painted themselves into a corner. They're trying to get out the voters based on appealling to get even with Kavanaugh. It is clear that Pelosi is going to launch hearings of some kind that could lead to his impeachment. Nobody believes for a second that the Senate is going to convict. The Republicans did not believe that when they voted for the impeachment of Bill Clinton. But political parties paint themselves into corners, and so I think we can expect lots of fireworks if the Democrats come into power next January.

There is no way that the Democrats are going to be able to make a case against Kavanaugh based on the testimony of Prof. Ford. That train pulled out of the station. If they can make a case, it will be related to perjury, just as the case against Clinton was made. Did Kavanaugh lie under oath regarding the use of certain leaked materials in 2004? None of this was brought up in the hullabaloo over his supposed molestation of Mrs. Ford. There would be substance to an impeachment investigation that had evidence regarding his supposed perjury. But that was not front-page news. That was not prime-time news. That has to do with technical legal issues. Political parties don't mobilize their base by focusing on technical legal issues.

The Democrats will do what they can to disrupt Kavanaugh's life. They've made this clear. This is revenge. They're going to get revenge against him and against Pres. Trump for having nominated him.

It is highly unlikely that they will ever succeed in removing him from office. He is going to be the first sitting justice of the Supreme Court to be the target of what is the equivalent of a political lynch mob. If you remember, that was the phrase that Clarence Thomas used against the hearings in 1991. He referred to them as a high-tech lynching. That was powerful rhetoric. That really was what the hearings were.

It will be interesting to see if Kavanaugh votes with the liberal Democrats on the court. Will he kowtow to the Democrats in the naïve belief that he can somehow curry favor with them? If he takes this strategy, he really is a man of poor judgment. They will savage him no matter what he does.

I think he will probably vote with Thomas and the conservatives. If he does, that is going to make it really difficult for the Democrats to get favorable rulings out of the Court for a long time. If Thomas would resign, having served for 27 years, this would enable Trump to appoint somebody 20 years younger to serve. That would really lock in the conservative majority.

I would certainly not want to be Kavanaugh. While he is going to keep his seat on the Court, they're going to make him pay for the privilege. I hope he doesn't have to hire lawyers at $300 an hour to present his defense. He is a high paid civil servant, but he is certainly not rich. It does not take much to deplete the life savings of anybody who has to hire expensive lawyers. Maybe some Washington law firm will work for free in order to get the publicity. He had better hope so.

We are seeing a division politically, but is not based on substantive issues. It is based on rhetoric. On the substantive issues, there is widespread bipartisan agreement. The debate is over symbols. Should a man be presumed innocent until proven guilty? The Democrats don't think so. But if the House impeaches Kavanaugh, and it goes to the Senate, I suspect the Republicans will also ignore the substantive issues, just as the Democrats ignored Clinton's alleged perjury. Committing perjury is clearly a substantive issue. But I don't think two-thirds of the Senate will vote to convict.

I think Pelosi and the Democrats are paralyzed. They can make noise. They can inflict pain. They can get revenge. But they can't change anything of substance for as long as they don't control both houses of Congress and the White House. The budget is pretty well fixed. There won't be any new programs. Foreign-policy issues are mostly in the hands of Pres. Trump. The house has nothing to say about them. So, as the rhetoric escalates, the importance of the issues will fade. That's business as usual in Washington. It's a Punch and Judy show.

 

[bbyrd009]

If Christ paid for all sin, why aren't all saved? Answer; he paid only for the sins of the elect. How do you know if you are one of the elect? Answer; you believe the gospel when you hear it.

Well, I would say that ...and not only ours, but the sins of the whole world
addresses that just fine, and our disagreements prolly center around what these various terms should actually be defined as, "saved, elect, believed" etc. nowhere does the Bible say "believe the lord and you will be saved," etc.

So wadr answer; "the sins of the whole world"
answer; "work to make your calling and election sure"
if any answer

 

[Willie T]

I looked up the author , Gary kilgore North , wikipedia calls him a " leading figure in the Christian Reconstructionist/Dominion Theology Movement"--besides that theology not being scriptural, first impressions of the title was "Gonna write me a book with a sensational title & Git me some Moolah!!"

Oh, then you didn't dig deep enough. He also married one of the daughters of that movement's modern leader, Rousas John Rushdoony.
As far as money goes, the humorous title was obviously "tongue-in-cheek." He is already very rich, and maintains a site where you can download dozens, if not hundreds, of books... all for FREE.

 

[Stranger]

I dunno strange, I didn't see too many that weren't irrelevant, tbh. I mean unless you're reading Paul like Peter said.

Key words to your statement: "I dunno". To which I agree.

Did I say anything about 'irrelevant'?

I mean, golly, prolly, Mrs molly. hdw

Stranger

 

[tzcho2]

Oh, then you didn't dig deep enough. He also married one of the daughters of that movement's modern leader, Rousas John Rushdoony.
.

But he is a leader of the Christian Recontructionist/ Dominion Theology Movement which has no Biblical basis like I said. The fact that he is married to the daughter of Rushdoony only shows how far in that Movement he is.
They believe Christ will not come back until the world is under God's law according to the Bible. That is not what the Bible teaches, it's the exact opposite actually.

 

[tzcho2]

As I said, "unresearched." Reading things by detractors is far from "researching." I don't agree with a lot of their ideas... and Gary North is a pompous ass and totally arrogant in a lot of ways, but they are probably closer to pleasing God than most of us would ever believe.

It's not info from his detractors -- he is a Dominionist why try to say he isn't? Not to take away from your questions, but I wonder how this Dominion theology informs his answers. Personally, I think these types of groups confuse non-Christians into thinking these fringe groups are representative, which they aren't.

 

[Nancy]

A few weeks ago, I posted a link to a book entitled "75 Questions Your Instructors Pray You will Never Ask," Mostly, the whole thing was dismissed as beneath the dignity of a "true Christian" to bother to respond to. (I also felt this way...… UNTIL I actually tried to answer some of them.)

I am posting just the questions (none of the book's answers) here to see if any of you run across the same dilemmas I did in trying to HONESTLY defend many of my doctrinal positions in replying to these questions.

1. Didn't God Hate the Unborn Infant Esau?
2. Could Pharaoh Have Repented?
3. Does God's Absolute Predestination Make Him Unfair?
4. If We Can't Work Our Way INTO Salvation, How Can We Work Our Way OUT?
5. How Can God GUARANTEE Good for His People Without PREDESTINATING Good?
6. How Can We Escape the Love of God?
7. If We Can "Fall From Grace," Isn't Christ's Intercession Ineffective?
8. Are We LESS Than Conquerors?
9. Doesn't God Make "Vessels Fitted for Destruction"?
10. When Did God Decide to Give Us Eternal Life?
11. Isn't Our Heavenly Inheritance Fully Guaranteed?
12. Aren't Our Good Works Predestined?
13. Didn't Jesus Deliberately Hide His Message so People Wouldn't Repent?
14. Could Judas Have Refused to Betray Jesus?
15. Don't Evil Men Also Glorify God?
16. Can Satan Repent and be Saved?
17. Aren't Men Ordained in Advance to Eternal Life?
18. Doesn't God Compel Men to Believe in Jesus?
19. Didn't God Choose Us Long Before We Accepted Him?
20. How Can an Unregenerate Man Accept Christ?
21. Could the Authorities Have Acted Righteously and Released Jesus?
22. Isn't God's Grace Irresistible?
23. Isn't the Will of God Absolutely Sovereign?
24. Isn't Faith in Christ the Gift of God?
25. Did Christ Die for All Men?
26. Isn't it Immoral for People to Have Sex with Animals?
27. How Can We Love God But Ignore God's Law?
28. Is Profession of Faith Enough, or Do Our Acts Also Count?
29. If Men Won't Obey God's Law, Are They Saved?
30. Are We "Once Saved, Always Saved"?
(to be continued)

1. Didn't God Hate the Unborn Infant Esau?- Yes (disturbingly)

2. Could Pharaoh Have Repented? IMHO had he humbled his own heart rather than hardening it causing God to harden it further to implement His plan, then yes he could have...God gave him chance after chance.

3. Does God's Absolute Predestination Make Him Unfair? Not unfair if God in His foreknowledge knew who they would choose to serve.

4. If We Can't Work Our Way INTO Salvation, How Can We Work Our Way OUT? Again, IMHO-The Holy Spirit works our salvation in us and we live (work) it out to the world around us?

5. How Can God GUARANTEE Good for His People Without PREDESTINATING Good? I see that obedience to Him brings good things naturally to His people.

6. How Can We Escape the Love of God? I sure hope that is NOT possible, lol.

7. If We Can "Fall From Grace," Isn't Christ's Intercession Ineffective? Isn't there a difference between "falling from grace" and living in sin? Our sin is never bigger than His grace, Amen, and He is ever there to intercede for the saints.

8. Are We LESS Than Conquerors? Yes, sometimes I think so. Win some battles and lose some. I think the most important thing is to learn from them and be ready the next time.

9. Doesn't God Make "Vessels Fitted for Destruction"?
Another bothersome one to me...if we still see God as All Good and loving, I have to look at His foreknowledge here as well. I am not settled with these kinds of verses quite yet...
10. When Did God Decide to Give Us Eternal Life? From before the foundations of the earth?

11. Isn't Our Heavenly Inheritance Fully Guaranteed?
"Those who have been born again are born "not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God" (1 Peter 1:23)."
Our inheritance is in Heaven where moth does not destroy and nothing rusts ♥ IF we continue to run and finish the race set before us yes, I do believe our inheritance is guaranteed.

12. Aren't Our Good Works Predestined? "Ephesians 2:10 English Standard Version (ESV)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. So yes, I think they are ready and waiting for us...will we obey?? :)

13. Didn't Jesus Deliberately Hide His Message so People Wouldn't Repent? Yes, and this I still do not fully understand, unless it was not yet time for the Gentiles? Or, to confound the wise in their own eyes?

14. Could Judas Have Refused to Betray Jesus? I do not think so as Jesus already knew what was in his heart to do, and God's plan was already put forth. I see that God does use the good and the bad for His purposes. People are bad on their own, God uses it for the good of His people. Again, JMHO

15. Don't Evil Men Also Glorify God? I say yes, even though they do not mean to sometimes, lol. He will one day cause EVERY knee to bow and EVERY mouth to confess Him as Lord, so...I see here that the unsaved will be included also and God's name WILL be glorified, I would not want God to humble me, much rather do it on my own! Yikes! Or, well...I don't know :)
16. Can Satan Repent and be Saved? I would say not as He has blasphemed the Holy Spirit countless times, and Hell WAS created for him and his demons...

17. Aren't Men Ordained in Advance to Eternal Life? Not sure I understand this one...

18. Doesn't God Compel Men to Believe in Jesus?
2 Corinthians 5:14-15 "For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again."

19. Didn't God Choose Us Long Before We Accepted Him? I say of course He knew...but I also say He gave us freewill...I know several on here do not see it that way.

20. How Can an Unregenerate Man Accept Christ?
Hear the Gospel, believe, repent, be baptized, stop sinning and follow Him, then grow or not...stony soil, shallow soil, fertile soil? :)
21. Could the Authorities Have Acted Righteously and Released Jesus? I believe so, yes. Too political between the Romans and the Pharisees, IMO. And, of course God knew all of these decisions beforehand, and used them towards His purposesl

22. Isn't God's Grace Irresistible? Only after it is understood, IMHO!! ♥

23. Isn't the Will of God Absolutely Sovereign? Yes, I do believe that is true. He holds all things together and nobody can stay His hand. Even Satan has to ask His permission before acting on something. He uses all things and people to accomplish His purposes.

24. Isn't Faith in Christ the Gift of God? Yes! “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast” (Ephesians 2:8-9, ESV)."

25. Did Christ Die for All Men? I say a resounding YES. Too many scriptures to copy paste...I think we all know them.

26. Isn't it Immoral for People to Have Sex with Animals?
I would say so, as well as disgusting! Might not be immoral for some but, to me it is.

27. How Can We Love God But Ignore God's Law? Impossible as, if we obey Him that is how we know we love Him. John 14:15 ""If you love me, obey my commandments." These things should become natural as we grow in Him.

28. Is Profession of Faith Enough, or Do Our Acts Also Count? Satan believes and trembles...

29. If Men Won't Obey God's Law, Are They Saved?
I would question their salvation only because of lack of love and fruit?

30. Are We "Once Saved, Always Saved"? On the fence here...

I'm sure you will get much better answers but, there ya have it! lol.

 

[Nancy]

I really don't know what I may have done. My connection to this forum has been fouling up for two days, and sometimes taking two minutes or more to respond to most any input.

Been acting up for a few days here too

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Been acting up for a few days here too

Here too.

 

[Enoch111]

He is already very rich, and maintains a site where you can download dozens, if not hundreds, of books... all for FREE.

Beware of Gary North and the Dominionists. They have a warped understanding of Scripture. So does Five Point Calvinism (which he is eagerly promoting through these questions).

So the reason you were have trouble with your computer is right here. ;)
Just kidding.

 

[aspen]

That's kind of what I mean.... Most of the answers any of us would give WOULD be the quick, pat, responses we have been trained to give (from either side) And the rest of the answers would be nonsensical nothings, designed to dazzle with BS.

Hopefully, we will continue to explore these type of questions throughout our lives. Accepting tradition for tradition’s sake is failing to hate you father and your mother

 

[aspen]

Mine been fowling up too.

Problems have been increasing.

I use the same forum software but mine is fully up to date, this is not. It is pretty far out of date.

Mine is having zero problem.

The issue is either a host server issue or software.

Server software is updated. If the user does not keep their software minimums up there will be problems to the point the software does not work.

If the server host is maintaining improperly, it is time to move to a better host.

Either way the status quo is bad.

Bad for software and theology

 

[aspen]

You would be surprised at how much contradicting and opposing rationalizations there were for almost ALL those questions.

Probably not.

People like to provide answers to all their fears/blind faith - whistling past graveyards.....

The converted heart has a better track record