Why Christians Disagree

[CoreIssue]

First of all as I have attempted to explain on numerous occasions I am not a JW, I'm a Bible Student, (there's a difference to those who know), and no Bible Students are not a branch of the JW's. The Bible Students existed nearly 57 years before the first JW.

Note the diagram below:

​

The original Bible Students (of which I considered myself) are depicted by the gray line. The green line represents the first schism in the movement in 1909 when the Australian branch of the movement led by the teachings of Paul S. L. Johnson (over the issue of the New Covenant) broke away and formed the Free Bible Students.

Those who stuck with the Pastor’s views continued on until the second schism took place, this shortly after his death in 1916, it was led by a former board member Judge Rutherford. At this point the majority of bible students seeing that the movement was being high jacked by Rutherford and that the Pastor’s teachings were being thrown out (replaced with Rutherford's) they began their exodus and formed new groups viz. the Laymen’s Home Missionary (violet) and the Associated Bible Students (blue).

Were I myself alive at the time I would have went with the Associated Bible Students as they retained the majority of the Pastor’s teachings, in fact today that is what many Bible Students refer to themselves as.

Now many bible students following the Pastor’s death were reluctant to leave the movement (depicted by the gray line which diverges from the blue and the violet), these had the hope that even under the new leadership the movement could be salvaged, but alas it became apparent that the movement was completely moving in a new direction and so another, a third schism took place between 1928-31 when many of these bible students came to their senses and finally realized that the new leadership under Judge Rutherford was departing from all that the Pastor taught and taking the movement in a different direction represented by the red line and the founding of the Jehovah's Witnesses in 1931.

Many of these eventually left and joined the Free Bibles Students while others the Associated Bible Students. Those that remain were indoctrinated into the new society, the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

​

History of the Jehovah's Witnesses
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Jehovah's_Witnesses

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Seems to me that only James White would recommend James White.....everyone else knows he declares victory in every debate and fixes his debate script to reflect this, right James?

People react against him, because they cannot find fault with his argumentation.
Could you offer why you object with an actual example or two.

 

[CoreIssue]

C : is the closest... Separation from God...who Is Love.

The lake is fire was created for the Devil and his fallen angels...not for mankind.

This thread is about disagreement among christians...and on hell, and the salvation of all mankind...I do not agree with most of the friends on this Site.
I believe that what Jesus did at redemption , was for ALL man.
I believe all will be saved...and " every man in his own order".
By scripture ( the Tabernacle Pattern) in the kingdom all men will not be equal. We have all Israel , we the priest who served in the outer court at the altar offering the blood of lambs. We have the holy Place, and those who served with the shew bread, and candle stick.. We have the Holy Of Holies...where only Arran went , with blood one a year, and Moses went to talk face to face with God before the Mercy seat.

Others can believe what they like... I believe all will be saved..
Acts 3:21 “Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”

Every man will be in heaven just where he has 'chosen to be' with God, here on earth. We chose every day.....
We can be as close or as far away as 'we' each chose to be.

My two cents... H

Acts does not say what you claim.

19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.
21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

It is speaking to Israel, not the world.

 

[Taken]

LOL, now if there was ever a twist on words and meanings, that is a doozy. I have found it hard enough to get Christians to see that life in torment cannot equate in any way to Romans 6:23, for the simple fact that God's word says the wages of sin is death, I mean, who would have thought that modern theology allows for "life" and "death" to mean the same thing right? ...but you have really raised the bar. Now I have to convince Christians that death and existence aren't synonymous! Wow. Where to start.

Scripture is clear. The Body is a Vessel.
The Body isn't LIFE, it receives LIFE, by and through God.

A BODY without LIFE, is still a body, still exists, but is without LIFE.

The LIFE given a BODY, IS BLOOD.

The LIFE given a MAN, IS a SOUL with Gods breath of Life, that brings the BODY into a living state.

The BLOOD stops pumping the heart, the BODY DIES, it doesn't become NON-existant.

Dead "existing" Body's are buried in the ground.

Go back a in 10 years later, dig it up, it still exists!

SOULS exists because they have Gods Breath of Life in them. They don't STOP existing, because the BODY DIES. They Continue to LIVE, UNTIL SUCH TIME God Departs His BREATH of Life out from the SOUL.
(And that has not yet happened).

Saved LIVING souls go to God in Heaven, while their body is Dead in the Ground. Those living souls are ENJOYING their WAIT for their Bodies to be raised up in a Glorified Body.

Unsaved LIVING souls go to Hell, separated from God, while their Dead body is in the Ground. Those living souls are WAITING in Torment/Discomfort, for their BODIES to be raised in Damnation.

The Body and Soul is rejoined;
So even VOID of BLOOD, a LIVING SOUL, IN a BODY, brings the body to life ...
And Before the Judge, a body stands, the soul within the body, and BOTH Body and Soul receive ITS JUDGEMENT and SENTENCE.

If a Body and Soul is JUDGED to be Separated from God....then the Sentence is Gods LIFE
(His Breath) is departed from the soul, and returns to God....and the Body and Soul destroyed...NON-EXISTENT? No.

NOTHING Created can become "UNCreated".
It is simply DESTROYED from having the SAME appearence.

Earth, ie Dry land came before mankind. Dust covers the Dry land.
From the dust of the existing dry land; Bodies are created by God, in particular FORMS, but shall return to DUST, and then it no longer looks like its BODILY FORM, it's is simply changed to dust....and a body destroyed in hell, simply becomes ash, dust, itty bitty tiny specks unrecognizable as ever having been a FORMED HUMAN BODY.

So, while what I said made no sense to you, you should have asked, when something you hear is not something you have yet learned or understood.

And BTW, there are different KINDS of DEATH.

Physical DEATH, which absolutely relates to a PHYSICAL BODY, and precisely why the body is called MORTAL...because that means, subject to physical death.

There is also SPIRITUAL DEATH.
Crucified with Christ is an example.
Living men, who reject God, is an example.

Both of those ^ pertain to men who ARE LIVING....but also Spiritually DEAD.

And the condundrum...is one spiritually dead (physically living man)...can be DEAD "IN" Christ...and God and Christ Spiritual with the man...and called Spiritually ALIVE, while also being Spritually DEAD. And there is more Detail that explains that.

While another spiritually dead (physically living man)...can be DEAD "Separated" from God....and Christ and God Spiritually NOT with the man....

So, DEATH, itself is not so simple, or limited simply to the mortal flesh, but not beyond understanding.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

@Taken I mean, look at it this way. A couple of guys on this thread struggle with believing in the existence of God, because of their lack of clear understanding of what we Christians readily see as evidence...and I get that. I've been there. So they struggle to believe God exists...we don't.

I get that.

We know He exists...

Uh huh.

does that mean we think He is also dead?

Huh? Where is that coming from?
Who said or implied any such thing?

Taken

 

[CoreIssue]

Scripture is clear. The Body is a Vessel.
The Body isn't LIFE, it receives LIFE, by and through God.

A BODY without LIFE, is still a body, still exists, but is without LIFE.

The LIFE given a BODY, IS BLOOD.

The LIFE given a MAN, IS a SOUL with Gods breath of Life, that brings the BODY into a living state.

The BLOOD stops pumping the heart, the BODY DIES, it doesn't become NON-existant.

Dead "existing" Body's are buried in the ground.

Go back a in 10 years later, dig it up, it still exists!

SOULS exists because they have Gods Breath of Life in them. They don't STOP existing, because the BODY DIES. They Continue to LIVE, UNTIL SUCH TIME God Departs His BREATH of Life out from the SOUL.
(And that has not yet happened).

Saved LIVING souls go to God in Heaven, while their body is Dead in the Ground. Those living souls are ENJOYING their WAIT for their Bodies to be raised up in a Glorified Body.

Unsaved LIVING souls go to Hell, separated from God, while their Dead body is in the Ground. Those living souls are WAITING in Torment/Discomfort, for their BODIES to be raised in Damnation.

The Body and Soul is rejoined;
So even VOID of BLOOD, a LIVING SOUL, IN a BODY, brings the body to life ...
And Before the Judge, a body stands, the soul within the body, and BOTH Body and Soul receive ITS JUDGEMENT and SENTENCE.

If a Body and Soul is JUDGED to be Separated from God....then the Sentence is Gods LIFE
(His Breath) is departed from the soul, and returns to God....and the Body and Soul destroyed...NON-EXISTENT? No.

NOTHING Created can become "UNCreated".
It is simply DESTROYED from having the SAME appearence.

Earth, ie Dry land came before mankind. Dust covers the Dry land.
From the dust of the existing dry land; Bodies are created by God, in particular FORMS, but shall return to DUST, and then it no longer looks like its BODILY FORM, it's is simply changed to dust....and a body destroyed in hell, simply becomes ash, dust, itty bitty tiny specks unrecognizable as ever having been a FORMED HUMAN BODY.

So, while what I said made no sense to you, you should have asked, when something you hear is not something you have yet learned or understood.

And BTW, there are different KINDS of DEATH.

Physical DEATH, which absolutely relates to a PHYSICAL BODY, and precisely why the body is called MORTAL...because that means, subject to physical death.

There is also SPIRITUAL DEATH.
Crucified with Christ is an example.
Living men, who reject God, is an example.

Both of those ^ pertain to men who ARE LIVING....but also Spiritually DEAD.

And the condundrum...is one spiritually dead (physically living man)...can be DEAD "IN" Christ...and God and Christ Spiritual with the man...and called Spiritually ALIVE, while also being Spritually DEAD. And there is more Detail that explains that.

While another spiritually dead (physically living man)...can be DEAD "Separated" from God....and Christ and God Spiritually NOT with the man....

So, DEATH, itself is not so simple, or limited simply to the mortal flesh, but not beyond understanding.

Glory to God,
Taken

The soul is the totality of a living person. The spirit is the eternal you living in your body.

The breath of life in us is our spirit, which comes from God.

The soul does not go to heaven, the spirit does.

 

[Taken]

ByGrace: said:

The lake is fire was created for the Devil and his fallen angels...not for mankind.

This thread is about disagreement among christians...and on hell, and the salvation of all mankind...I do not agree with most of the friends on this Site.
I believe that what Jesus did at redemption , was for ALL man.

I agree when Jesus gave His body if was for ALL men.

I believe all will be saved...and " every man in his own order".

And here I disagree with you, based on:
Jesus' body was an OFFERING.

Heb 10
[10] By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Heb 10
[12] But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

ONE Body Offered.
ONE Offering for all men.

So it doesn't matter how many babies are born, or men live, they are OFFERED the same one sacrifice.

What you are leaving out in your proposition, is that Something OFFERED, means, it is RECEIVIED by all men.

It is a Living sinful man that is being OFFERED a gift, provided by the Lords Offering.

It is the FLESH BODY of a man that SINS against God.
The LIFE of a FLESH BODY is it's BLOOD.
A physically DEAD MAN, can not make choices to Believe IN God, Convert In Christ, accept the Lords offering.
Scripture clearly tells us, a DEAD body knows nothing. Thus how can it CHOOSE the Lords Offering.
It is the LIVING BODY, with it's Blood flowing, that the LIFE of that LIVING BODY can FREELY Choose to accept the Lords OFFERING ...or NOT.

You are proposing ALL will be saved, because Salvation is Offered to ALL.

But nothing teaches ALL will ACCEPT the Lords Offering.

If an individual does not ACCEPT the Lords OFFERING, then what....that man is then FOrCeD to be Saved? and his freewill to choose was a Lie?

Others can believe what they like... I believe all will be saved..

True. And I disagree that an OFFERING, does not require a choice of every man to Accept or Reject the Lords Offering.

Acts 3:21 “Whom the heaven must receive

Yes, "whom" the heaven must receive...

And then comes the times of restitution of all things.

until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began

.”

Restitution of ALL things.
Restoration of the earth, without corruption.
Restoration of men WITH God.
Restoration of men WItH the Lord God.
And those who did not take the Lords Offering?
Restoration of them back to dust who belong not to thee Lord God.

Every man will be in heaven

Men didn't come from heaven. They came from the earth.
Men who have Accepted the Lords Offering will occupy the Earth, and no longer will there be a Division between Heaven and Earth or a man and his God.

We chose every day.....
We can be as close or as far away as 'we' each chose to be.

Agree.

But in the end scheme of things, you have seemingly...
1) taken away mans freewill to not choose Jesus' offering.
2) seemingly made it possible for Dead bodies, void of their life (blood) to have the ability to choose the Lords offering.

Regarding those two points ^^, do you have a scripture you know of, that takes away a mans freewill, and they are forced to be saved?
Or how dead bodies will have their blood life revived, so they can then choose the Lords offering?

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

The soul is the totality of a living person.

Nope.

The spirit is the eternal you living in your body.

Half correct.

The breath of life in us is our spirit,

Nope.

which comes from God.

Breath of life from God, yes.

The soul does not go to heaven,

Disagree.

the spirit does.

Yep, that also goes to heaven, (for a saved man)

Taken

 

[Enoch111]

You are proposing ALL will be saved, because Salvation is Offered to ALL. But nothing teaches ALL will ACCEPT the Lords Offering.

Exactly. It is simply amazing that people imagine that just because Christ died for ALL HUMANITY that all will be automatically saved (Universalism). Nothing could be further from the truth. But this is the bogus argument which Calvinists present when trying to support the false doctrine of Limited Atonement.

These misguided individuals forget that obedience to the Gospel is a NECESSARY CONDITION FOR SALVATION. And Paul sums it up nicely in Acts 20:20,21.

And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, [1] repentance toward God, and [2] faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

So without genuine repentance and genuine saving faith, no one can be saved, not even the so-called *elect*. And that is why God COMMANDS all men everywhere to (1) repent and (2) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. See Acts 17:30 and 1 John 3:23.

 

[Dave L]

Exactly. It is simply amazing that people imagine that just because Christ died for ALL HUMANITY that all will be automatically saved (Universalism). Nothing could be further from the truth. But this is the bogus argument which Calvinists present when trying to support the false doctrine of Limited Atonement.

These misguided individuals forget that obedience to the Gospel is a NECESSARY CONDITION FOR SALVATION. And Paul sums it up nicely in Acts 20:20,21.

And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, [1] repentance toward God, and [2] faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

So without genuine repentance and genuine saving faith, no one can be saved, not even the so-called *elect*. And that is why God COMMANDS all men everywhere to (1) repent and (2) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. See Acts 17:30 and 1 John 3:23.

You are teaching salvation by works. = heresy

 

[Enoch111]

You are teaching salvation by works. = heresy

No. I am NOT teaching salvation by works or any heresy. But you are the one promoting heresy after heresy.

I quoted the exact Scripture which supports the entire teaching of the New Testament. But you have no clue. Obedience to the Gospel is NOT the same as obedience to the Law of Moses. So why don't you learn the truth instead of making wild accusations?

Listen to what Paul says about obedience to the Gospel: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?...But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. (Rom 10:16,21)

 

[Dave L]

No. I am NOT teaching salvation by works or any heresy. But you are the one promoting heresy after heresy.

I quoted the exact Scripture which supports the entire teaching of the New Testament. But you have no clue. Obedience to the Gospel is NOT the same as obedience to the Law of Moses. So why don't you learn the truth instead of making wild accusations?

Listen to what Paul says about obedience to the Gospel: But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?...But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. (Rom 10:16,21)

If Christ died for all and all are not saved, why not?

 

[CoreIssue]

Nope.



Half correct.



Nope.

The bible is not vague on this point.

7 Then the LORD God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. NIV

The King James version says living soul.

The definitions make it clear the soul is the totality of our living flesh being. Our spirit is the true all part breathed into us by God.

soul, self, life, creature, person, appetite, mind, living being, desire, emotion, passion

1. that which breathes, the breathing substance or being, soul, the inner being of man
2. living being
3. living being (with life in the blood)
4. the man himself, self, person or individual
5. seat of the appetites
6. seat of emotions and passions
7. activity of mind
   1. dubious
8. activity of the will
   1. dubious
9. activity of the character
   1. dubious

The KJV Old Testament Hebrew Lexicon
Strong's Number: 05397 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
hmXn from (05395)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
N@shamah TWOT - 1433a
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
nesh-aw-maw' Noun Feminine
Definition

1. breath, spirit
   1. breath (of God)
   2. breath (of man)
   3. every breathing thing
   4. spirit (of man)

 

[CoreIssue]

If Christ died for all and all are not saved, why not?

You are a broken record on this.

To concede the fact that Christ died for all but we have to accept it by repentance by free will would deny your calvinism.

 

[Dave L]

You are a broken record on this.

To concede the fact that Christ died for all but we have to accept it by repentance by free will would deny your calvinism.

This is salvation by works.

 

[Taken]

Exactly. It is simply amazing that people imagine that just because Christ died for ALL HUMANITY that all will be automatically saved (Universalism). Nothing could be further from the truth. But this is the bogus argument which Calvinists present when trying to support the false doctrine of Limited Atonement.

These misguided individuals forget that obedience to the Gospel is a NECESSARY CONDITION FOR SALVATION. And Paul sums it up nicely in Acts 20:20,21.

And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publickly, and from house to house, testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, [1] repentance toward God, and [2] faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

So without genuine repentance and genuine saving faith, no one can be saved, not even the so-called *elect*. And that is why God COMMANDS all men everywhere to (1) repent and (2) believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. See Acts 17:30 and 1 John 3:23.

Hardy do I open my mailbox that there is not some thing being OFFERED to me.

And every few years I buy a new shredder for such unsolicited and intrusive junk.

I know of the Lords Offering because I freely chose to buy a Bible and read it.

I also chose to accept the Lords Offering, and would be skeptical of the entire Bible if I read....eh...fooled ya....everyone receives Salvation...acceptance NOT REQUIRED, it's FORCED....

Doesn't jive.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Vince]

Per science nothing should exist and nothing is internal.

In desperation some atheist as cross the line into the supernatural with their claims. They have realized sciences failed to explain many things and by its laws can never explained them.

Anyway you look at it the ultimate beginning was supernatural.

Science readily admits that it does not know certain things. But it does not jump to a conclusions. You say we don’t know so it must be god. That is illogical.

Scientists don’t say we should not be here they say we don’t know why we are here.

 

[Preacher4Truth]

God choosing to save others BECAUSE he saw they would choose him (which is false) = Salvation by works.

It is therefore not salvation by grace. Conditional election is heresy.

 

[Enoch111]

If Christ died for all and all are not saved, why not?

Simple. I already gave you the biblical answer. BUT THEY HAVE NOT ALL OBEYED THE GOSPEL (Rom 10:16)

 

[Dave L]

Simple. I already gave you the biblical answer. BUT THEY HAVE NOT ALL OBEYED THE GOSPEL (Rom 10:16)

This is salvation by works. And taking Paul out of context to prove it.