Proof of the Trinity. No takers?

[justbyfaith]

You follow a different Christ than revealed in the bible. Scripture proves any of your points that stray from the historic trinity doctrine indefensible.

By all means, bring forth the scriptures that refute my point of view.

My Jesus is the Jesus of the Bible. And I will not say that yours isn't; because Jesus is a Person and not a set of doctrines that define Him. If you do not yet know everything about Him, it doesn't mean you haven't met Him or that you don't have a relationship with Him.

There is no scripture that says that denying the Trinity will place you outside of salvation. The Deity of Christ, yes; the Trinity, no. And I also do not deny the true Trinity; but God has given me a revelation on it that is slightly different than what others have speculated in the past, and which was accepted as absolute truth. I am here to correct some of the misconceptions.

The real Trinity is so simple a child can understand it. It gets convoluted by the words and how people perceive them.

 

[justbyfaith]

So according to your logic God has only magnified His word in one particular translation, the King James Version?

I have my reasons for believing this. I do not want to even mention what is the abject heresy that I have found to be inherent in the NIV and NASB (and I have not looked at other versions to see if it is in them also); because if I even mention it, someone might be stumbled by it to the extent that their faith might be destroyed. For it almost destroyed my faith. If I had not had the gift of tongues so that I could keep myself in the love of God, I very likely would have fallen away from Christ because of the heresy in question. And therefore I strongly warn people to stay away from the NIV and NASB.

Thus the transcribers of the original King James Version were the only transcribers amoungst all the other transcribers who transcribed the original text, who were guided by the Holy Spirit in their work.

Some of the newer translations are based on completely different manuscripts than is the kjv, in case you didn't know this. So, really, the choice is not between the kjv and the NASB or NIV, but between the Textus Receptus (inspired and inerrant) on which the kjv is based, and other manuscripts (which are watered down and corrupted).

 

[101G]

Again, I'm not saying that learning is a bad thing-- in fact I have said repeatedly that it is a GOOD thing. Just that salvation is not dependent on a person being able to pass a theology test. Again, I don't see Christ saying "stop right there- please explain homoousios to me before you can be saved." Salvation is about Christ moving in our heart, not about our brain's knowledge.

Good morning, No, I'm not saying that salvation is based on what anyone knowes, if it was, we all are lost, and still in our sin.

no, just like Faith and works, Paul and Jame. one is not saved by their works, they work because they are saved. what did james say?
James 2:17 "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
James 2:18 "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

now switch this to our discussion, we are not saved by our knowledge of God, it's our growth in the KNOWLEDGE of Christ that shows that we're saved.

many people are educated, but are educated fools.

my analogy using the growth in the KNOWLEDGE of Christ into a perfect man is the evidence of "OUR SALVATION".

understand me now?.

 

[Harvest 1874]

I have not been debunked; in fact, I have answered all of your objections to my satisfaction.

This is where you have erred my friend and pride in ones own understanding becomes evident.

According to your satisfaction? This proves nothing and lends no support to your position, we are all generally satisfied with our own arguments, but the whole point of the discussion is to sway, to attempt to enlighten our listeners, not to puff up ourselves.

If you believe something to be true then state it as such, present your facts and allow them to speak for themselves, leave self out of the picture.

 

[justbyfaith]

This is where you have erred my friend and pride in ones own understanding becomes evident.

According to your satisfaction? This proves nothing and lends no support to your position, we are all generally satisfied with our own arguments, but the whole point of the discussion is to sway, to attempt to enlighten our listeners, not to puff up ourselves.

If you believe something to be true then state it as such, present your facts ans allow them to speak for themselves, leave self out of the picture.

What I meant to say is that none of the arguments from the opposing side are good enough to convince me of the opposite of what I know is the truth.

Nitpicking about the words I have used is what you have to resort to. Where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. I am not a religious person, so that I have to choose my words extra-carefully in fear of being judged over how they sound to people.

And what I also was trying to say by that is that I realize that people of the opposing view may have hardened hearts and that therefore my answer to their arguments may very well be ignored or put on the backburner of their thinking; because they will believe what they want to believe, even if the evidence is overwhelming to the contrary: until they suddenly hit rock bottom and the only direction that they can look in is up.

And also, I understand that in answering their arguments, I did not bring forth the arguments in favour of my point of view; and therefore they only have the answer to their arguments as evidence that they are wrong, but they do not yet have the compelling evidence for the concept that Jesus is the only Lord God; unless they really are aware of the evidence and simply reject that evidence because they do not want to believe in the Deity of Christ for whatever reason.

 

[101G]

@justbyfaith @Dave L @Netchaplain @mjrhealth
@101G @Blueberry

Yet I STILL do not believe for a moment that "Trying" to understand the Godhead is a vital need for salvation!!!

A person gets saved...he/she does NOT understand the Godhead.
Yet they are truly saved. So, why make such a big deal over it?
Isn't the heart of the person of much more interest to God than if they knew or understood the depth of the Godhead?

It seems to me by reading Romans 11 that it cannot be understood anyway!
33 "O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Or who hath first given to Him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?" For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen. "

Hi BG, no need, but PROOF of your salvation.

A person gets saved...he/she does NOT understand the Godhead.

hence the reason,
Ephesians 4:11 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Ephesians 4:12 "For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Ephesians 4:13 "Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

if you're of God you will seek to KNOW him to the fullist.

Isn't the heart of the person of much more interest to God than if they knew or understood the depth of the Godhead?

well, let the apostle Peter tell you.
2 Peter 1:2 "Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

2 Peter 1:3 "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

2 Peter 1:4 "Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2 Peter 1:5 "And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2 Peter 1:6 "And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

2 Peter 1:7 "And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

2 Peter 1:8 "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Peter 1:9 "But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. (STOP, this is what many unlearned people say that one can loose one's SALVATION, this is where they get that IDEA from).

2 Peter 1:10 "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: (ONE MIGHT WANT TO READ THAT VERSE AGAIN)

2 Peter 1:11 "For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

but the whole point of the discussion is to sway, to attempt to enlighten our listeners, not to puff up ourselves.

I also make it a major part of my argument that my faith in the truth is the evidence of things not seen and the substance of things hoped for (Hebrews 11:1).

So I let it be a testimony, as an evidence to the opposing party, that their arguments have not convinced me in the slightest. This should tell them that there is something that they are missing in their understanding, since they have believed something based on arguments and that those same arguments did not convince someone who is more studied in the word.

It should tell them that maybe the reason why they believe what they believe is, because they want to believe it, and not because their pov is based in real biblical truth.

I leave you with Jeremiah 29:13 and Matthew 7:13-14.

 

[Harvest 1874]

YES, there are 'things' that we know for sure...obviously.
But most argument are about the things that no one knows for sure.

Yes, but who determines whether something is known or not, that there are things no one knows for sure?

How do you know no one knows, have you spoken to everyone?

Now I understand that there are many arguments over debatable issues, the Trinity not withstanding, but we must not arrbtrarily determine that just because two sides have been arguing over an issue and have not reached a consensus that no one knows.

Perhaps one of the two sides in the discussion is correct, but we ourselves having not yet come to the proper understanding of the issue are unable to see it for ourselves.

Or perhaps both parties in the discussion are wrong neither having been made aware of the truth on the issue. Are we still then to conclude that no one knows for certain?

 

[101G]

well, I'm sure most of the trinitarian are folloowing this topic, I would like to put forth these scriptures. when using The conjunction "and". it has been stated that,"it has two primary senses. One is copulative and the other is cumulative. The cumulative has the sense of an additional noun, and not descriptive".

copulative,
GRAMMAR, (of a word) connecting words or clauses linked in sense. connecting a subject and predicate. a PREDICATE state, affirm, or assert (something) about the subject of a sentence or an argument of proposition.

lets see this clearly,
Titus 2:13 "Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ"

ok, let's take this verse apart.

the conjunction "AND" is used as the "copulative" WHY glad you asked, because the subject before, "God" is connected to the "predicate" OUR SAVIOUR, which "OUR" is a proposition in the argument as the definition of "predicate" states.

so the conjunction "AND" here is copulative, which means JESUS the Saviour is GOD who is ONE beside himself. supportive scripture,
Isaiah 45:21 "Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me".

IMPORTANT, IMPORTANT, IMPORTANT. many say God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. one God. Isaiah 45:21 said "No God" and God here is Capalized with the "G". and with him saying "I", and "me" which are single desigination that means there is NO God the Son, or God the Father, or God the Holy Spirit and they are SEPARATE PERSONS?, No way, these scripture have just disproved any trinity. the mere fact of "I" and "ME" and "NO OTHER God" clearly eliminates any chance of three person in any Godhead.

I suggest one re-read this post for clarity.

PICJAG

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus is the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God as the Father and the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

 

[Harvest 1874]

You appear to be judging

There are things we know for sure even if you do not. Are you using your level of learning as a ceiling that others cannot rise above? It seems you are.

In this last I must agree with brother Dave, many are inclined to judge that if they themselves lack understanding in regards to certain things, believing themselves to be faithful Christians and students of the word, that it is most likely that no one else knows. This is a misconception, it has always been our belief that the Lord has never given complete knowledge, complete understanding to any one brother, but rather has spread it amongst the brethren (that is to those who apply themselves to it) so that in turn we might develop a dependence upon one another, that “the whole body might be joined and knitted together by that which every joint supplies, according to the effective working (of the holy spirit, the spirit of truth), by which every member contributes its share…” Eph 4:16.

 

[Harvest 1874]

I DO believe that God has designed it so , because that way we are all a vital part of His body ..TOGETHER we have all truth ...no person has everything down pat 100%
What arrogance for those who think that they do. ( and that their brother is all wrong.)

Well said my sister.

 

[101G]

Jesus is the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God as the Father and the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

100%
1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:5 "And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:6 "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Spirit, Lord, God = JESUS.

 

[101G]

Galatians 4:16 "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?"

 

[justbyfaith]

I DO believe that God has designed it so , because that way we are all a vital part of His body ..TOGETHER we have all truth ...no person has everything down pat 100%
What arrogance for those who think that they do. ( and that their brother is all wrong.)

I would say however that we can know all things if we have asked for an unction from the Holy One.

1 John 2:20 (kjv), But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

And therefore it is not arrogance, but rather a trust in the reception of this promise, that might lead a brother to believe that he has all the truth (dwelling in his heart, so that he can put it into words by quoting the scriptures...see Romans 10:8) as a Spirit dwelling within him (John 14:17, John 16:13).

 

[justbyfaith]

100%
1 Corinthians 12:4 "Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.

1 Corinthians 12:5 "And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:6 "And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.

Spirit, Lord, God = JESUS.

Yes, there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5, 1 Corinthians 8:6); and He is the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). However no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the power of the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3 (kjv)).

 

[Dave L]

That may be the accepted theology; but it is flawed to a certain extent. The Father is not the Son. The Son is not the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit is the Father; and the Son is the Father. You'll get what I am saying eventually if you think about all of it. It is based on the understanding that there is one God: one and only one; but that Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct individuals. Because God is outside of time, we cannot accurately say, the Son was the Father; because while this is true, the Father still exists in eternity as a distinct individual from the Son. And the Son also did not cease to be the Father when He descended to become the Son. I am saying that it was not 1/3 of God that descended to become a Man, nor a second God, but God Himself. And when I say God, I mean the Father. There is one Father (Malachi 2:10), and Jesus is it (Isaiah 9:6).

By all means, bring forth the scriptures that refute my point of view.

My Jesus is the Jesus of the Bible. And I will not say that yours isn't; because Jesus is a Person and not a set of doctrines that define Him. If you do not yet know everything about Him, it doesn't mean you haven't met Him or that you don't have a relationship with Him.

There is no scripture that says that denying the Trinity will place you outside of salvation. The Deity of Christ, yes; the Trinity, no. And I also do not deny the true Trinity; but God has given me a revelation on it that is slightly different than what others have speculated in the past, and which was accepted as absolute truth. I am here to correct some of the misconceptions.

The real Trinity is so simple a child can understand it. It gets convoluted by the words and how people perceive them.

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. You only know him according to what you know about him in truth. And to deviate from the biblical doctrine of the trinity is to follow a different Christ. One that matches your distortions.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. You only know him according to what you know about him in truth. And to deviate from the biblical doctrine of the trinity is to follow a different Christ. One that matches your distortions.

Yes, that is correct. And what I believe in is the biblical doctrine of the Trinity; because some of the creeds are slightly off.

If you get your understanding of the Trinity from the Bible rather than the creeds then I think that you will eventually see, know, understand, and believe my pov.

 

[mjrhealth]

Willful ignorance is not as excusable as you make it out to be. Anyone can clearly see the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each called God in scripture, present at Jesus' baptism. And then the rest of scripture lines up with this.

there is no argument there, but this is not what this is about, as for truth, you sit here calmly telling us that God doesnt speak to anyone anymore than claim the bible speaks to you, know how can that be, If its is not Gods voice than it can only be the other.

 

[101G]

Jesus is the way, the truth and the life. You only know him according to what you know about him in truth. And to deviate from the biblical doctrine of the trinity is to follow a different Christ. One that matches your distortions.

the trinity doctrine deviate from the biblical doctrine of God is ONE PERSON, shared in flesh and bone, and not three separate person, which the apostles and disciple was taught.