Sound Doctrine

[Marymog]

I can't think of one. We follow apostolic tradition as we can.

Hi,

If you don't accept tradition then how can you "follow apostolic tradition"?

What I am confused by is how you can say you are an "overseer" in your fellowship but you reject organized religion and have no need for titles. However, you have taken the title of a church leader. I am confused by your contradictory statements and practices. Can you explain your thought process better to help clear my confusion up?

Curious Mary

 

[farouk]

Hi,

If you don't accept tradition then how can you "follow apostolic tradition"?

What I am confused by is how you can say you are an "overseer" in your fellowship but you reject organized religion and have no need for titles. However, you have taken the title of a church leader. I am confused by your contradictory statements and practices. Can you explain your thought process better to help clear my confusion up?

Curious Mary

The Epistles have a clear pattern for local church government.

 

[Marymog]

The issue is their Apostolic Authorship of NT books and the subsequent general recognition of the inherent genuineness of the Bible books.

Thank you farouk.

Who wrote Luke and Acts?

Mary

 

[farouk]

Thank you farouk.

Who wrote Luke and Acts?

Mary

The Acts is properly the Acts of the Apostles and has been recognized as the valid, Spirit-inspired account of the Apostolic transitional period.

 

[Enoch111]

Thank you.

1. Where in scripture did Jesus say he was excluding the Deuterocanonical books? Can you explain your statement? That statement is confusing.

Since Jesus limited "the Scriptures" (the Hebrew Scriptures) to the 24 books of the Hebrew Tanakh (grouped as the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms), He AUTOMATICALLY excluded the Apocrypha. For Jesus, and for all Jews, what was in the Tanakh was alone Scripture. Nothing else.

2. I assume your referring to 2 Peter 3:16?

Correct.

3. Since Matthew, Mark, Acts, James and Jude DON'T claim inspiration, how did they end up as one of the 27 books of the NT? Some Churches considered Clement, Ignatius and Polycarp's letters as scripture and read them as such in their churches. Why didn't they make the final cut? Who made that decision?

God the Holy Spirit made that decision, working through believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that the Spirit would guide Christians into "all truth", and that is why those books are regarded as God's truth. The 2nd century translation of the New Testament into Syriac -- the Peshitta or Peshito -- has all the books of the NT as we do. That was long before the Catholic Church made any claims about the canon. The Muratori Canon of the 2nd century confirm this (but not as fully).

 

[Enoch111]

Who wrote Luke and Acts?

Luke wrote both, although it is only in the Gospel of Luke that he states that he received it "from above" -- Greek anothen -- i.e. as divine revelation.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi,

If you don't accept tradition then how can you "follow apostolic tradition"?

What I am confused by is how you can say you are an "overseer" in your fellowship but you reject organized religion and have no need for titles. However, you have taken the title of a church leader. I am confused by your contradictory statements and practices. Can you explain your thought process better to help clear my confusion up?

Curious Mary

The bible speaks of function...not offices and people with special titles and robes.

If something is spiritual....then it is not something to be understood clearly in this world. The problem with the man-made institutions is that it appeals to the senses.

As one of the leading young priests said...the RCC is very sensual. It attracts the natural faculties as opposed to being established in the spiritual realm.

 

[farouk]

Eldership is very much a work in the local church. Acts 20, etc.

 

[Marymog]

The Acts is properly the Acts of the Apostles and has been recognized as the valid, Spirit-inspired account of the Apostolic transitional period.

Thank you. The question is WHO wrote it? Was it an Apostle?

WHO recognized it as the valid, Spirit-inspired account of the Apostolic transitional period?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

Since Jesus limited "the Scriptures" (the Hebrew Scriptures) to the 24 books of the Hebrew Tanakh (grouped as the Law, the Prophets, and the Psalms), He AUTOMATICALLY excluded the Apocrypha. For Jesus, and for all Jews, what was in the Tanakh was alone Scripture. Nothing else.

God the Holy Spirit made that decision, working through believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit. Jesus said that the Spirit would guide Christians into "all truth", and that is why those books are regarded as God's truth. The 2nd century translation of the New Testament into Syriac -- the Peshitta or Peshito -- has all the books of the NT as we do. That was long before the Catholic Church made any claims about the canon. The Muratori Canon of the 2nd century confirm this (but not as fully).

Thank you Enoch.

Where does scripture say that "Jesus limited "the Scriptures" to the 24 books of the Hebrew Tanakh"? You do know that there was no common canon among the Jews at the time of Christ? The Samaritans and Sadducees accepted the law but rejected the prophets and writings. The Pharisees accepted all three. Other Jews used a Greek version known as the deuterocanonical. Still other Jews used a version of the canon that is reflected in the Septuagint. It included versions of the seven books in question in their original Hebrew or Aramaic.

You keep making general statements. Could you be more specific? Who were these "believers indwelt by the Holy Spirit" that God worked thru to give us our current Bible?

Did you know that most of the Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament are found in the Syriac version? Does that mean you now accept the Deuterocanonical?

Did you know in the 2nd Century there was disagreement on WHAT books were canonical amongst all the Christian Churches (which included the Syriac)? As you pointed out the Muratorian (170AD) didn't mirror the Syriac (150AD?) which didn't mirror the Marcionite (130-140AD) That is why the final decision was made by The Church thru various Councils (just like the Council of Jerusalem) in the 4th Century to be binding on ALL Christians.

I suspect you already know the controversy surrounding the dating of the Peshitta?

Peshitta | Syriac Bible
Problems With Peshitta Primacy

Historical Mary

 

[Marymog]

Luke wrote both, although it is only in the Gospel of Luke that he states that he received it "from above" -- Greek anothen -- i.e. as divine revelation.

Hi Enoch,

Where in Luke and Acts does it say WHO wrote them? I can't find it.

Curious Mary

 

[Enoch111]

Where does scripture say that "Jesus limited "the Scriptures" to the 24 books of the Hebrew Tanakh"?

I have already posted on this in depth but all you have to do is read and study Luke 24 and see it for yourself.

44 And he [CHRIST] said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in [1] the law of Moses, and in [2]the prophets, and in [3] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures...

So what is the Holy Spirit telling us through Luke who recorded the exact words of Christ?

"The Scriptures" = the Hebrew Scriptures = the Tanakh = 24 books

Christ DEFINED and LIMITED the Scriptures as above:

1. The Law of Moses = TORAH = 5 books
2. The Prophets = NEBIIM (NEVIIM) = 8 books
3. The Psalms = KETHUBIM (KETUVIM) = 11 books
TOTAL = 24 BOOKS (39 books in Protestant Bibles)

Now can you see how and why the Deuterocanonicals were automatically excluded?

 

[Marymog]

The bible speaks of function...not offices and people with special titles and robes.

If something is spiritual....then it is not something to be understood clearly in this world. The problem with the man-made institutions is that it appeals to the senses.

As one of the leading young priests said...the RCC is very sensual. It attracts the natural faculties as opposed to being established in the spiritual realm.

Sooooo you function as a teacher but that is not your title?

The bible speaks of function...not offices and people with special titles and robes.

If something is spiritual....then it is not something to be understood clearly in this world. The problem with the man-made institutions is that it appeals to the senses.

As one of the leading young priests said...the RCC is very sensual. It attracts the natural faculties as opposed to being established in the spiritual realm.

Soooo you function is as an "overseer" or teacher because Scripture does not talk about "special titles"? What are we to do with Acts 13:1, 1 Cor 12:28-29 and Eph 4:11 to name a few??? Those verses don't mention "special titles"?

What "leading young priest" said that?

Mary

 

[Marymog]

I have already posted on this in depth but all you have to do is read and study Luke 24 and see it for yourself.

44 And he [CHRIST] said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in [1] the law of Moses, and in [2]the prophets, and in [3] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures...

So what is the Holy Spirit telling us through Luke who recorded the exact words of Christ?

"The Scriptures" = the Hebrew Scriptures = the Tanakh = 24 books

Christ DEFINED and LIMITED the Scriptures as above:

1. The Law of Moses = TORAH = 5 books
2. The Prophets = NEBIIM (NEVIIM) = 8 books
3. The Psalms = KETHUBIM (KETUVIM) = 11 books
TOTAL = 24 BOOKS (39 books in Protestant Bibles)

Now can you see how and why the Deuterocanonicals were automatically excluded?

No Enoch, I can't see how and why the Deuterocanonical were automatically excluded.

Jesus said He must fulfill what was written in those books....He says NOTHING about excludeing the Deuterocanonical. How can you equate the two?

During the first century the Jews disagreed as to what constituted the canon of Scripture. The fact is there were a large number of different canons in use including the growing canon used by Christians.

The Protestant patristics scholar J. N. D. Kelly writes: "It should be observed that the Old Testament thus admitted as authoritative in the Church was somewhat bulkier and more comprehensive than the [Protestant Old Testament] . . . It always included, though with varying degrees of recognition, the so-called Apocrypha or deuterocanonical books. The reason for this is that the Old Testament which passed in the first instance into the hands of Christians was . . . the Greek translation known as the Septuagint. . . . most of the Scriptural quotations found in the New Testament are based upon it rather than the Hebrew.. . . In the first two centuries . . . the Church seems to have accept all, or most of, these additional books as inspired and to have treated them without question as Scripture.

Mary

 

[Marymog]

The Epistles have a clear pattern for local church government.

If two "local church governments" disagree with an interpretation of Scripture, which one has authority? Do the Epistles answer that question?

Mary

 

[Nancy]

I agree! But that's not what the Catholic Church teaches.

Code of Canon Law, Canon 749:

"The Supreme Pontiff, in virtue of his office, possesses infallible teaching authority when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful...he proclaims with a definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held as such." (emphasis added)
​

In case you were wondering, the "Supreme Pontiff" is the pope, aka "The Holy Father."
.

The ONLY Holy Father I will EVER recognize as such is God Almighty...you can keep your cannons, traditions of men, extra-biblical writings and works. And you can keep your "confessionals" as you think you need to confess your sins to God through a MAN and the bible CLEARLY teaches that there is ONE mediator, Jesus Christ. The curtain was rent in half, opening up the Holy of Holies so that we mere human beings -who put our total faith in the ONLY one who IS faithful, are now able to "... approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need."
" Hebrews 4:16

 

[Marymog]

The ONLY Holy Father I will EVER recognize as such is God Almighty...you can keep your cannons, traditions of men, extra-biblical writings and works. And you can keep your "confessionals" as you think you need to confess your sins to God through a MAN and the bible CLEARLY teaches that there is ONE mediator, Jesus Christ. The curtain was rent in half, opening up the Holy of Holies so that we mere human beings -who put our total faith in the ONLY one who IS faithful, are now able to "... approach God's throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need."
" Hebrews 4:16

Hi Nancy. What are we to make of these bible verses?

2 Thessalonians 2:15
1 Corinthians 11:2
James 5:16
John 20:23

Mary

 

[Marymog]

I have already posted on this in depth but all you have to do is read and study Luke 24 and see it for yourself.

44 And he [CHRIST] said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in [1] the law of Moses, and in [2]the prophets, and in [3] the psalms, concerning me. 45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures...

So what is the Holy Spirit telling us through Luke who recorded the exact words of Christ?

"The Scriptures" = the Hebrew Scriptures = the Tanakh = 24 books

Christ DEFINED and LIMITED the Scriptures as above:

1. The Law of Moses = TORAH = 5 books
2. The Prophets = NEBIIM (NEVIIM) = 8 books
3. The Psalms = KETHUBIM (KETUVIM) = 11 books
TOTAL = 24 BOOKS (39 books in Protestant Bibles)

Now can you see how and why the Deuterocanonicals were automatically excluded?

Did you know that most of the Deuterocanonical books of the Old Testament are found in the Syriac version? Does that mean you now accept the Deuterocanonical?

Curious Mary

 

[Episkopos]

Sooooo you function as a teacher but that is not your title?

Soooo you function is as an "overseer" or teacher because Scripture does not talk about "special titles"? What are we to do with Acts 13:1, 1 Cor 12:28-29 and Eph 4:11 to name a few??? Those verses don't mention "special titles"?

What "leading young priest" said that?

Mary

A person is not their function. Is a construction worker a job description or title? So it is with a worker of God.

No, the bible is not speaking in religious terms. Men just understand it that way...because they are religious.

I don't remember the priests name....but the RCC is the most sensual church out there. Sights, smells, and sounds. All meant to inspire the outward man.

 

[Marymog]

A person is not their function. Is a construction worker a job description or title? So it is with a worker of God.

No, the bible is not speaking in religious terms. Men just understand it that way...because they are religious.

I don't remember the priests name....but the RCC is the most sensual church out there. Sights, smells, and sounds. All meant to inspire the outward man.

You are truly confusing me. You take the name Episkopos (Bishop) which is an overseer or teacher and you admit you are such with the people you gather with during your meetings. But teacher or overseer (Bishop) is not your title, it is just your function. Does it matter to you that Scripture, Christian history and the dictionary makes it a title? Definition of OVERSEER

The bible is not speaking in religious terms? What terms would a religious book speak in?

Who is your teacher in these things? From whom did you learn what you are preaching to me?

Mary