The Problem With The Trinity

[bbyrd009]

I see nowhere where it says we must believe that Jesus is the great I AM and that saves us!!

Your verse says " I am He.." I am He what?
The Open Door... The perfect last Lamb sacrifice...
Our salvation does not hang on whether Jesus is God or not...it hangs on His BLOOD shed which took the judgement that was upon the world.
You are 'adding to' the word here.... :

amen

obv the only acceptable way to worship Jesus (like pagans worship) is to make Him into God first i guess right. God is the Head of Christ, and not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows are both true regardless i bet

 

[bbyrd009]

There is no doubt in my mind that I know the truth

um, yikes?

If the blood that was shed was not the blood of God (see Acts of the Apostles 20:28 (kjv)), then it was insufficient to save us.

there is no doubt in your mind that you know the truth, jbf :)

 

[farouk]

As I said, it is an unbiased study. If all he quoted was trinitarians (and he quoted a lot of them), it would be totally bias.


I am still waiting on the verses you referenced in John 13-17. Give me the relevant verses in Romans 8 as well. And please don't waste my time in the future by not quoting exactly what you are referring to.

Bible Gateway on screen, and count the references to Father, Son and Holy Spirit in John 13 thru 17 and in Romans 8.

I sense you are not open to seeing Father, Son and Holy Spirit in Scripture, however, so my efforts are possibly futile.

 

[farouk]

amen

obv the only acceptable way to worship Jesus (like pagans worship) is to make Him into God first i guess right. God is the Head of Christ, and not even the angels in heaven or the Son himself. Only the Father knows are both true regardless i bet

Hebrews 1 makes it clear that the Lord Jesus is to be worshipped: He is the brightness of God's glory, Whose throne as God is for ever and ever; let all the angels of God worship Him.

 

[bbyrd009]

Hebrews 1 makes it clear that the Lord Jesus is to be worshipped: He is the brightness of God's glory, Whose throne as God is for ever and ever; let all the angels of God worship Him.

i guess i would mostly point out our varying definitions of "worship" here, and ask you what Nehushtan means to you

 

[farouk]

i guess i would mostly point out our varying definitions of "worship" here, and ask you what Nehushtan means to you

Hebrews 1 is clear to me; and I don't feel the need - perish the thought - to take away from worship in the fullest sense for God's beloved Son.

 

[bbyrd009]

Hebrews 1 is clear to me; and I don't feel the need - perish the thought - to take away from worship in the fullest sense for God's beloved Son.

so then if you know, then you know the significance of Nehushtan and what breaking him up means farouk, the Bible covers every eventuality, every single angle, not one is omitted that i can see. If you will do even greater things than God's Son, shall we worship you too? i tell you that Jesus hides from your worship, just like He hid from the Two Greeks, it's all in There iow

 

[farouk]

so then if you know, then you know the significance of Nehushtan and what breaking him up means farouk, the Bible covers every eventuality, every single angle, not one is omitted that i can see. If you will do even greater things than God's Son, shall we worship you too?

The Lord Jesus returned to the Father and left His church indwelt by His Spirit to do things greater in scope, in that sense. I don't appreciate you apparent argument that the Son of God is not to be worshipped, when the Bible clearly says he should be.

 

[bbyrd009]

The Lord Jesus returned to the Father and left His church indwelt by His Spirit to do things greater in scope, in that sense. I don't appreciate you apparent argument that the Son of God is not to be worshipped, when the Bible clearly says he should be.

worship Him in spirit and in truth then, with my blessings, ok. Find Nehushtan whenever you are ready, he isn't going anywhere i guess

 

[bbyrd009]

If you will do even greater things than God's Son, shall we worship you too?

 

[Helen]

Right...however we know from scripture that if someone denies that Jesus is the great I AM, they will die in their sins (John 8:24)...so scripture makes the call for us and determines that the Deity of Christ is essential doctrine as pertains to our salvation.

Says you. And we each have to stand and be judged on what we have chosen to believe. I STILL say and believe much doctrine is just that...doctrine , and 95% of man.

The sacrificial life, death, and resurrection of The Lord Jesus Christ is where it stands or falls... and not on any other added on doctrine...just like the Pharisees "added to" the law , in their time...

 

[Helen]

Hebrews 1 makes it clear that the Lord Jesus is to be worshipped: He is the brightness of God's glory, Whose throne as God is for ever and ever; let all the angels of God worship Him.

I don't think anyone is arguing that...( maybe) my contention is when it is stated the - unless we claim Jesus as the Father ( which I happen to do) ..then we die in our sins..go to hell etc..
God himself has not stated that in scripture...
It is the blood of Jesus Christ which takes away the sin of the world.
NOT what anyone believes or doesn't believe about the trinity....
THAT is my argument here... :)

 

[Helen]

Hebrews 1 makes it clear that the Lord Jesus is to be worshipped: He is the brightness of God's glory, Whose throne as God is for ever and ever; let all the angels of God worship Him.

The issue here that you are missing...with your discussion with bbyrd009 is that no scripture other then the wise men who worshipped Jesus , shows us to worship Jesus.
Even your Hebrews 1 scripture is the worship of God the Father...we may have them as one and the same...but Mark is saying we are not told to worship God "as Jesus"...
Jesus Himself said " worship the Father in Spirit and truth..."
Jesus never ever ever says " worship Me". ALL glory goes to the Father...
Check it out for yourself....you wont find any direct scripture saying "worship Jesus".

The contention is....."they" want to hold on to is to worship the 'Jesus' the man which was...but not The Lamb that IS in all His glory. REV 1
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and His hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and His eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And His feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters. "

THIS above is NOT who is being worshiped by 98% of people...they have created an image...

...but ...enough said...just trying to show what is being said here.
...maybe it hasn't helped...

 

[bbyrd009]

Jesus never ever ever says " worship Me". ALL glory goes to the Father...
Check it out for yourself....you wont find any direct scripture saying "worship Jesus".

^

and when you go looking, you will find "Two Greeks" and "Nehushtan"
:)

 

[gadar perets]

Bible Gateway on screen, and count the references to Father, Son and Holy Spirit in John 13 thru 17 and in Romans 8.

I sense you are not open to seeing Father, Son and Holy Spirit in Scripture, however, so my efforts are possibly futile.

I see the Father in Scripture. I see the Son in Scripture. I see the Holy Spirit in Scripture. I do not see that they are co-equal or co-eternal. Nor do I see them as three separate "persons" comprising the one true God. There is nothing in John 13-17 or Romans 8 that teaches any such thing.

 

[gadar perets]

Hebrews 1 makes it clear that the Lord Jesus is to be worshipped: He is the brightness of God's glory, Whose throne as God is for ever and ever; let all the angels of God worship Him.

He is NOT to be worshiped as "the only true God". He is to be "worshiped" as the Son of the only true God, as our King, and as our Saviour. You would do well to do a word study on the Hebrew and Greek words translated "worship/worshipped/worships", etc.

 

[justbyfaith]

Says you. And we each have to stand and be judged on what we have chosen to believe. I STILL say and believe much doctrine is just that...doctrine , and 95% of man.

The sacrificial life, death, and resurrection of The Lord Jesus Christ is where it stands or falls... and not on any other added on doctrine...just like the Pharisees "added to" the law , in their time...

Says the Bible! (John 8:24). You can question my interpretation, but you have to at least admit that my interpretation is a valid one: and that therefore it must be considered. And if you consider the stakes...that if I am right and you (or I) deny the Deity of Christ, you will die in your sins (i.e. go to hell)....but if you are right and I affirm the Deity of Christ, there are no eternal consequences for me. Thank you, I will choose the path that has no eternal consequences either way: I will affirm the deity of Christ. If someone else wants to be foolish and risk eternal consequences, in denying Christ's Deity, I guess that if they turn out to be wrong they made their bed and now they must lie in it.

God himself has not stated that in scripture...

I believe that He has (John 8:24 in light of John 8:58 in light of John 8:59 and John 10:31-33 and Exodus 3:14).

 

[justbyfaith]

He is NOT to be worshiped as "the only true God". He is to be "worshiped" as the Son of the only true God, as our King, and as our Saviour. You would do well to do a word study on the Hebrew and Greek words translated "worship/worshipped/worships", etc.

The name of the Son shall be called among other things, "the everlasting Father." (Isaiah 9:6).

Now you can change the wording twice in order to come up with an alternate interpretation of what the author originally intended, but I think you would be being dishonest with the scriptures...

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus never ever ever says " worship Me". ALL glory goes to the Father...
Check it out for yourself....you wont find any direct scripture saying "worship Jesus".

The concept is right there in Hebrews 1:6-9.

You have to have the exact words that you have dictated they have to be, in order to believe the truth? The Bible is a book of concepts. You won't find the words "justification by faith" anywhere in the Bible...but the concept is surely there!

 

[Helen]

The concept is right there in Hebrews 1:6-9.

You have to have the exact words that you have dictated they have to be, in order to believe the truth? The Bible is a book of concepts. You won't find the words "justification by faith" anywhere in the Bible...but the concept is surely there!

Haha! Is that the best you can do!!

And, by the way..... you don't know the bible as well as you think you do.

Romans 5 5 "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.."

Bless you....