Seemingly Anti-OSAS Scriptures

[JesusIsFaithful]

You post "Salvation is done by believing in Him." What if one quits believing? Verses as John 3:16 have the verb "believeth"in the present tense meaning one must CONDITIONALLY faithfully, stedfastly continue to believe unto death to be saved.

The Bible shows there are 2 sides to salvation:
1) continued faithfulness, stedfastness on part of the Christian (Revelation 2:10; 1 Corinthians 4:1-2; Hebrews 3:14; 1 Corinthians 15:58)
2) God's faithfulness to the faithful, stedfast Christian (John 10:28; Hebrews 13:5)

#1 is about abiding in Him as His disciple to be received by Him as a vessel unto honor in His House at the pre great trib rapture event when God shall judge His House.

In all the years of my debating with OSAS proponents, they have ALWAYS taken verses that speak to God's faithfulness to the Christian (#2), pull those verses out of context and wrest them into teaching OSAS all the while they do not want to have to deal with the verses that command, demand faithfulness and stedfastness on part of the Christian (#1). They will also attack the present tense, subjunctive mood, conditional statements and qualifying statements in attempt to push the OSAS agenda.

Careful, brother. The same can be said towards you. Only God can cause the increase in seeing the truth in His words. It is not done by arguing.

Case in point:

John 10:
27 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Verse 28 is pulled from John chapter 10 and removed from ALL other Bible contexts and wrested into teaching OSAS. This verse by itself removed from the rest of the Bible does not tell us to whom the pronouns "them" and "they" refer to.

But when verse 28 is put back into the text from which it was ripped we can now see that the "them" and "they" of verse 28 refers to Christ's sheep of verse 27.

But what about the other verse 16 in that chapter? Jesus begins that chapter by citing how some will follow the stranger's voice and not His voice. I refer that warning in John 10:1-5 as climbing up another way in following that stranger's voice as those who seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by a sign of tongues which never comes with interpretation. Those who follow His voice follow the understood written word of His in the KJV.

We read down to this verse;

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus has other sheep that are not of the fold that follow His voice; hence referring to those that have gone astray in seeking to climb up another way in receiving what they believe is the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by that sign of tongues which never comes with interpretation and so assumed to be a prayer language of sort, thus following a stranger's voice for even their "self edification" although it never comes with interpretation.

So that means all those saints that went astray as in not abiding in Him in following that stranger's voice are still His, even though they refuse to follow His voice but to follow the stranger's voice. They run the risk of being left behind as castaways, but they will be resurrected after the return of the King of kings to defeat the world's armies and Satan had been cast into the pit, and then those saints coming out of the great tribulation will hear His voice LITERALLY and be of the one fold and one shepherd.

So why is that? Because they have been bought with a price and sealed as His. That foundation is never going away ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-11 ). The seal of adoption that is the Holy Spirit cannot be undone ( Ephesians 4:30 ), but those that defile the temple of God which is our physical bodies ( 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ), shall be destroyed ( 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 ) , unless they repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes.

--Who qualifies to be Christ's sheep? Those that CONDITIONALLY hear and follow Him, His disciples.
--the verbs "hear" and "follow" being in the present tense show a current ONGOING action meaning the sheep must be FAITHFUL and STEDFAST in their hearing and following Christ.

That is for discipleship. Not for salvation. Running that race is for abiding in Him so the Bridegroom will receive as vessels unto honor in His House.

--those that quit hearing and following Christ, i.e., that no longer following God's commands to be faithful and stedfast are no longer of the "they" and "them" of verse 28. They were not plucked out of God's hand nor did God leave and forsake them but they left and forsook God by not CONDITIONALLY continuing to be faithful and stedfast to God, His word.

Those who quit hearing and following Christ are still His. Here are the scriptures that testify to that truth.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

See verse 13? Now Paul goes on to give an example of how some became former believers.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So the call to repent even goes to former believers because they are still His and they need to go before that throne of grace for help in seeing the truth to expose the lies that turn them away from Him or else risk being left behind when God comes to judge His House first at the pre great trib rapture event.

This is where the vessels unto dishonor comes from that are still in His House. They are still saved and nobody has plucked even former believers out of His hands either as they will testify as vessels unto dishonor in His House to the power of God in salvation for all those that believe in Him, even in His name.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

He made the statement "If we believe we are working to maintain our salvation, then we are denying Him as having been saved by Him." which has no Biblical bases. It denies (#1) that the Christian has a role and responsibility to obey God's command to remain faithful and stedfast and this takes work, striving (agonizing) Luke 13:24. In my last post I clearly pointed out the flaw OSAS proponents make. Wait and see if someone comes along and challenges me on John 10:27-28 and see that they do to this text.

Read it in context of the whole chapter, but if you do not want to do that, then apply it to verse 16 below of that chapter.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

What sheep that are not of this fold that followed His voice? Those who climbed up another way in following a stranger's voice are the sheep not of that fold that followed His voice, but a stranger's voice as explained in John 10:1-5.

Those believers that have received what they believe was the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by a sign of tongues are the sheep climbing up another way in how they are following a stranger's voice. They are still saved, but are in iniquity and are at risk of being left behind, unless they repent before the Bridegroom comes. They are still in His hands even when left behind because there are His vessels unto dishonor in His House.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

He made the statement "If we believe we are working to maintain our salvation, then we are denying Him as having been saved by Him." which has no Biblical bases. It denies (#1) that the Christian has a role and responsibility to obey God's command to remain faithful and stedfast and this takes work, striving (agonizing) Luke 13:24. In my last post I clearly pointed out the flaw OSAS proponents make. Wait and see if someone comes along and challenges me on John 10:27-28 and see that they do to this text.

As for your application of striving as in agonizing...in Luke 13:24... I do not read the meaning in that way. If we look at Matthew 7:13-14 of the same warning, we see that striving is maintaining Jesus, the Son of God, as the only way in coming to God the Father by John 14:6; not by way of the Holy Spirit ( John 10:1 & John 10:7-9 ) Jesus meant John 14:6 but too many believers go to the Holy Spirit in worship and to worship the Holy Spirit in glorifying what they believe is the Holy spirit coming and going with the visitations of signs and lying wonders.

Matthew 7:13-14 warned of those that broaden the way in coming to God the Father by and so the striving is to maintain that singular invitation regarding the Son as the ONLY way to come to God the Father by in prayer, fellowship, and worship.

By broadening the way in the worship place by including the Holy Spirit to come to & to worship with the Father & the Son, invites other spirits to come in to put that focus on them with their signs and lying wonders. To the believer's point of view, they called on the Holy Spirit and "He" came regardless of the fact that there is chaos and confusion with believers falling down as in loss of self control.... lacking a fruit of the Spirit.

Jesus ended that warning about how false prophets will come in by broadening the way and how as a result, they will glory in themselves in doing wonderful works in His name, casting out devils in His name, and prophesying in His name in Matthew 7:21-23 as many of these movements of the "Spirit" will claim and even being in His Presence in being filled by Him in Luke 13:26-27, but they will fall down in Matthew 7:24-27 as proof that they were workers of iniquity. Now some will try to rationalize those movements in pointing out the "good" as those do in Matthew 7:21-23, but Jesus said that no good tree will produce an evil fruit and no evil tree will produce a good fruit, therefore by that iniquity and the evil fruits they are ignoring... falling down as in loss of self control... is how a believer can discern and prove that those movements are not of Him at all.

So Luke 13:24 is not about striving as in agonizing, but in striving to enter through that narrow gate that others are trying to broaden. Keep your eyes on Jesus as the only way to come to God the father by in prayer, fellowship, and worship. That is how you strive to enter through that narrow gate.

And yes, I needed Jesus's help as my Good Shepherd to do that when I was confronted with the apostate holy laughter movement.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Is salvation "continually believing in Him to be saved"? Or is salvation is about "having believed in Him, we are saved"? If the former, then how can any one testify that Jesus Christ is their Saviour unless they had been saved since they had believed in Him, thus no longer condemned to the second death? If we are to seek salvation to continually believe in Him, then does that not put salvation on our efforts by continually believing in Him to be saved? If so, how can Jesus Christ be the true Saviour?

John 6:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I believe in OSAS, but believers are at risk for not abiding in Him if they build on that foundation works that deny Him thus running that risk of being denied by Him ( Titus 1:16 & 2 Timothy 2:12 ) at the pre great tribulation rapture event as in left behind to become vessels unto dishonor in His House.

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
-the present tense "believeth" denotes a current ongoing action.
-the verb "should not perish" is in the subjunctive mood-- Strong's "The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances."

When combining the present tense of "believeth" with the subjunctive mood of "should not perish" then we can easily see the meaning of the verse is the action of one not perishing depends upon the circumstance of him faithfully maintaining a present tense belief. Hence if is not faithful and quits believing then he should perish. Same verb construction is found in verses like John 6:40. One should also note how the NIV changed John 3:16 and John 6:40 from the subjunctive mood ("should" and "may have" KJV) to an indicative mood ("shall") in order to avoid the force of the meaning of the verses, that being, salvation is conditionally dependent upon one faithfully maintaining a present tense belief.


If one is not faithful and quits believing he cannot claim he was faithful unto death. John 8:31 those that are Christ's "disciples indeed" are the ones that continue in His word.

1 John 2:24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." "IF" is a conditional word. One can continue in the Son and in the Father CONDITIONALLY IF one faithfully remains in the word he has heard.

Man therefore does have a role to play in his own salvation, the Christian has been COMMANDED to put for the effort to CONTINUE to be faithful and stedfast:

1 Timothy 4:16 "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

Jesus Christ is the Saviour and His free gift of salvation is CONDITIONAL. No verse anywhere says a man is saved UNconditional. And meeting the conditions upon a free does not, cannot earn the free gift that has already been offered to man. Unfortunately many people have been mislead about "works". The Bible speaks of different types of works so all works are not the same. Where some works (works of merit, works of self-righteousness) do not save obedient works in doing the will of God does save. There is not a single NT verse that eliminates ALL works of ALL kinds from salvation. Verses as Eph 2:9-10 and Romans 4:5 eliminate works of the OT law of Moses and/or works of merit but do not eliminate obedience to God's will. Those that pull these 2 verses out of context and claim and assume they eliminate all works are just creating massive contradictions with many many other verses.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
-the present tense "believeth" denotes a current ongoing action.
-the verb "should not perish" is in the subjunctive mood-- Strong's "The subjunctive mood is the mood of possibility and potentiality. The action described may or may not occur, depending upon circumstances."

When combining the present tense of "believeth" with the subjunctive mood of "should not perish" then we can easily see the meaning of the verse is the action of one not perishing depends upon the circumstance of him faithfully maintaining a present tense belief. Hence if is not faithful and quits believing then he should perish. Same verb construction is found in verses like John 6:40. One should also note how the NIV changed John 3:16 and John 6:40 from the subjunctive mood ("should" and "may have" KJV) to an indicative mood ("shall") in order to avoid the force of the meaning of the verses, that being, salvation is conditionally dependent upon one faithfully maintaining a present tense belief.

Jesus referring to how one is born again of the Spirit would present the means of salvation in present tense, but Jesus did refer to a past tense of the result of having believed in Him in John 3:18 in that any one that believes is not condemned.

If one is not faithful and quits believing he cannot claim he was faithful unto death. John 8:31 those that are Christ's "disciples indeed" are the ones that continue in His word.

In being His disciple; not in being saved. It is by continuing in His words is how a saved believer is His disciple that shall be received by the Bridegroom when He comes. Those saved believers that are not continuing in His words as His disciple, will not be received by the Bridegroom but denied entrance to the Marriage Supper in heaven.

If you read 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 on what the church is to do towards an unrepentant brother, and what the purpose of excommunication will do as mirroring how God will judge His House at the pre great trib rapture, then you should be able to see how those unrepentant saints left behind will suffer the destruction of the flesh but their spirit shall be saved. So the physical bodies are destroyed for defiling the temple of God ( 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 ), but their spirit is saved in that day ( 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 )

There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over the loss of their first inheritance of being received as a vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper, but the saints left behind to be damned as vessels unto dishonor ... shall be received in His House still.

1 John 2:24 "Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father." "IF" is a conditional word. One can continue in the Son and in the Father CONDITIONALLY IF one faithfully remains in the word he has heard.

The apostle John was dealing with believers that had thought sin was no longer sin when they were saved, which is why he was led to rebuke such thinking by referring to how Christ walked in the light. John went through the trouble of giving lines of discernment for believers to know whom was abiding in Him in speaking the truth and whom were not abiding in Him as having gone out from what have been taught of us.

Those that have gone astray are called to repentance; not to be saved again. Do consider that. If a well known christian went astray, the church is not ordered nor taught to preach the gospel to him again and to water baptized him again, but to correct him in order to lead him to repentance, but if he refuses, they were to excommunicate the "brother" until he did repent. Then he is welcomed back in again with no preaching the gospel to him nor water baptizing him again in order for him to come back in when he is just being called to repentance.

Man therefore does have a role to play in his own salvation, the Christian has been COMMANDED to put for the effort to CONTINUE to be faithful and stedfast:

1 Timothy 4:16 "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

I understand your "concern" but you are misreading Paul's word to Timothy. There is salvation from the second death which all believers have obtained by believing in Him, but there is salvation from what is coming on the world when God does come to judge His House first at the pre great trib rapture event.

One of the major apostasy that God will judge when He comes is the spiritual apostasy involving these "movements of the 'spirit' " stemming from those that err in seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation in order to receive tongues without interpretation as a sign of that apostate second calling given to believers as that iniquity was already at work in Paul's day in 2 Thessalonians 2 nd chapter by which Paul reminded them all of the tradition taught of us when we had received the promise of the Spirit and the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 . In 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 of addressing the falling away from the faith of the previous chapter, Paul cites those unreasonable wicked men that have not faith that no longer walk after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly ( as chaos and confusion reigns in these movements of the spirit ) that it is the Lord's commandment to withdraw from them, but not to treat them as the enemy, but to admonish them as brothers because they are still brothers ( 2 Thessalonians 3:16-17 ).

So in reading your reference in 1 Timothy 4:16, you are overlooking Paul addressing that falling away from the faith in 1 Timothy 4:1-2. His call to repent and to continue in the traditions taught of us is to save them from God judging those whom have gone astray as warned in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter which God will judge first as the Bridegroom BEFORE He comes back in judging Satan and the world's armies as the King of kings.

So there is a saving... but not from the second death, but from being left behind for unrepentant iniquity to incur the first death; physical death.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Jesus Christ is the Saviour and His free gift of salvation is CONDITIONAL. No verse anywhere says a man is saved UNconditional.

Try to explain away how vessels unto dishonor can be in His House when the call to repent given to all believers, even former believers, is how one purge themselves to be received as vessels unto honor in His House?

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Explain how anyone can break the least of His commandmenst and teach others so are called least in the Kingdom of God as still being IN the kingdom of God?

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Don't get me wrong. It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God and there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over the loss of that first inheritance of being that vessel unto honor in His House, but those unrepentant saints "excommunicated" and damned as vessels unto dishonor are still in His House.

Salvation is not conditional. God is not an Indian Giver in giving a free gift and then takes it back.

To be received by the Bridegroom is conditional by abiding in Him as His disciple by faith in Him as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him by laying aside every weight & sin.... thus still by the grace of God and our faith in Him is why it is written that the just shall live by faith.

I agree that we will be judged by what we have built on that foundation as the call to repent is to lead us to Jesus to help us to repent.. to lay aside every weight & sin so we can run that race for the high prize of our calling of being received as a vessel unto honor in His House by the Bridegroom.

But if you are working for your salvation, then you are denying Him as your Saviour that you are saved since you believed in Him.

You are not to run that race for salvation, but to be received by Him as a vessel unto honor in His House thus saved from being left behind to incur a physical death. God warned this church in Revelation of the consequence for not repenting before the Bridegroom would come.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. 24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden. 25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.

See how your reference of 1 Timothy 4:16 shows what believers are being saved from in these latter days where many are falling away from the faith? It is not the second death that unrepentant believers are to be saved from, but the physical death in being left behind for being unrepentant.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

#1 is about abiding in Him as His disciple to be received by Him as a vessel unto honor in His House at the pre great trib rapture event when God shall judge His House.



Careful, brother. The same can be said towards you. Only God can cause the increase in seeing the truth in His words. It is not done by arguing.

I am not pulling John 10:28 out of context and wresting it. Another example?

Philippians 1:
5 - For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I have seen verse pulled out of context and then the claim verse 6 proves eternal security, "until the day of Christ". Yet verse 5 shows those Philippians had been faithful in the gospel from the first day until now. In other words, they had faithfully continues to hear and follow Christ per John 8:27 from the first day until now. This is way Paul was confident that God would continue a good work in them.

Do we have an example of those who did NOT continue in the gospel as the Philippians? Yes. Galatians 1:6-7.

Do we find where Paul said of those Galatians that left the gospel of Christ that he was confident God would continue a good work in them until the day of Jesus Christ? Not at all.

What did Paul say about these Galatians who left the gospel?
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, Gal 3:1
I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Gal 4:11
ye are fallen from grace. Gal 5:4
Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? Gal 5:7


(It's off topic but I do not go along with the man made idea or Premillennialism.)

2 Timothy 2:
20 - But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 - If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Again, man has a role in his own salvation. Again "if" being a conditional word, IF a man purge himself. Peter said in 1 Peter 1:22 "Seeing you have purified your souls..." How can a man purge himself, purify his own soul? By being obedient to Christ. Christ saves those that obey Him Hebrews 5:9, so those that choose to obey Christ are in that sense saving themselves.

But what about the other verse 16 in that chapter? Jesus begins that chapter by citing how some will follow the stranger's voice and not His voice. I refer that warning in John 10:1-5 as climbing up another way in following that stranger's voice as those who seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by a sign of tongues which never comes with interpretation. Those who follow His voice follow the understood written word of His in the KJV.

We read down to this verse;

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Jesus has other sheep that are not of the fold that follow His voice; hence referring to those that have gone astray in seeking to climb up another way in receiving what they believe is the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by that sign of tongues which never comes with interpretation and so assumed to be a prayer language of sort, thus following a stranger's voice for even their "self edification" although it never comes with interpretation.

So that means all those saints that went astray as in not abiding in Him in following that stranger's voice are still His, even though they refuse to follow His voice but to follow the stranger's voice. They run the risk of being left behind as castaways, but they will be resurrected after the return of the King of kings to defeat the world's armies and Satan had been cast into the pit, and then those saints coming out of the great tribulation will hear His voice LITERALLY and be of the one fold and one shepherd.

I do not agree at all with how you interpret John 10:16.

It was God's plan that salvation of the gospel was to first go to the Jew then to the Gentile, Romans 1:16. In John 10:16 Jesus is making a prophetic reference to those Gentiles that would obey the gospel which He would save...as Cornelieus in Acts 10. Hence Jew and Gentile would make up the one flock, the one body, the one church, Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11; etc.

So why is that? Because they have been bought with a price and sealed as His. That foundation is never going away ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-11 ). The seal of adoption that is the Holy Spirit cannot be undone ( Ephesians 4:30 ), but those that defile the temple of God which is our physical bodies ( 1 Corinthians 6:19-20 ), shall be destroyed ( 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 ) , unless they repent with His help before the Bridegroom comes.

The ones who are sealed are the ones who CONDITIONALLY become a Christian and faithfully remain in the group Christian,, faithfully remain in the church. One can become unfaithful and fall from the group. The group remains sealed but not the individual who fell. Revelations 3:14-20 Jesus was to spew out those that had become unfaithful. So how does one fall from the group, the church? He gets spewed out.

There is not an example of any individual in the NT who was UNconditionally sealed but was not conditionally a faithful Christian in the group/church.

That is for discipleship. Not for salvation. Running that race is for abiding in Him so the Bridegroom will receive as vessels unto honor in His House.

John 10:27-28 one must hear and follow to qualify be a sheep of Christ for it is only Christ's sheep, those who are CONDITIONALLY in the group Christian/church being the ones that shall never perish.

Therefore if one becomes unfaithful by quitting hearing and following Christ he then is disqualified, no linger of Christ sheep, no longer in the group Christian that is sealed and will perish.

Those who quit hearing and following Christ are still His. Here are the scriptures that testify to that truth.

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

See verse 13? Now Paul goes on to give an example of how some became former believers.

An astounding statement that has no logical, Biblical basis.

Again, John 10:27 says those who ongoingly hear and follow Him qualify as His sheep, in His possession. You are trying to create another qualification that does not exist, that being "My sheep do not hear My voice and do not follow Me". A sheep is another word for disciple and a disciple is a follower, a learner, an adherent to the teachings of another. How can one with a straight face claim he is a disciple of Christ when he is not following, not hearing, not learning, not adhering to Christ's teachings?

2 Timothy 2:13 is not saying God will be faithful anyway to those that quit believing.

God cannot lie, therefore when He makes a promise He keeps it. In Hebrews 5:9 God has promised to save those that obey Christ and in 2 Thessalonians 1:8 God has promised to have vengeance upon those that obey not the gospel of Christ. To claim God will save those that quit obeying by believing in goes against what God has already promised.

What Paul is saying in 2 Tim 2:13 is if a Christian does become unfaithful God will continue to be faithful to the words/promises He has made/said.

2 Timothy 2:112 says "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:" Again a verse with the CONDITIONAL word "IF" and God will plainly deny those that deny Him and NOT save those that deny Him.

God will deny those that deny Him and God will not deny Himself.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Incredible. Not a single NT verse says vessels of dishonor will be saved. If so, then what is it that distinguishes the vessel of honor from the vessel of dishonor, Romans 9:21.

2 Timothy 2:21 If a man purge himself he shall be a vessel of honor. As earlier, you are trying to create a verse that does not exisit, that being, "if a man does NOT purge himself he shall be a vessel of honor also" If a man does not have to purge himself and therefore live in sin and still be saved, then there was no need for Christ to die for man's sin and we are dealing with cheap grace, we are "turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness".

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Ernest: So I see you have ignored my last post for some reason and moved on to something else you think may gain traction.

Again, if you reread what I just said in my last post, and really understood it, you will understand then why I, agree with @JesusIsFaithful statement of "If we believe we are working to maintain our salvation, then we are denying Him as having been saved by Him."

Now I must admit the statement is not as clear as it could be fashioned. It could also be a sophisticated catch-all statement with 3 meanings - clever!

1. It can read to mean, if we are striving to gain salvation through our own means, out of fear, we are then denying and doubting the work of God and Christ for salvation. We are still an unbeliever.
2. It can read to mean that a person who thinks he /her is saved believes they still need to maintain their salvation through their own efforts, and deny the work of God and Christ. We are still an unbeliever.
2. It can also mean that a saved person still has doubts about his/her salvation after becoming saved or converted. This saved believer has not grown in faith since his/her conversion and need guidance from above and from brethren.

BL: a saved person never maintains their salvation, they maintain their spiritual growth with God by cooperation and in sanctification. This part is conditional upon the person's actions..

Bless you,

APAK

"If we believe we are working to maintain our salvation, then we are denying Him as having been saved by Him."

The above statement has no Biblical basis, there is no verse that says such. It is a philosophy of man, nothing more.

There are numerous verses, too numerous for me to even take the time to list them all, that put the work of obeying the will of God BEFORE salvation. But one verse I will mention is John 6:27 where Jesus Himself said to WORK for the meat that endures unto everlasting life. The implication of these plain word is no work = no everlasting life.

------

Romans 6:16 "Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

Paul says we all serve either one of two masters. We each serve either:

1) sin unto death
or
2) obedience unto righteousness.

I serve obedience unto righteousness. I have asked this question amny many times to those who follow the man made teaching of faith only. The false teaching of faith only eliminates them from saying they serve obedience unto righteousness. Of course they will not say they are serving sin unto death so 99.9% of the time they simply avoid answering. Will you answer which one of the two you serve?


----
Above you posted " 2. It can read to mean that a person who thinks he /her is saved believes they still need to maintain their salvation through their own efforts, and deny the work of God and Christ. We are still an unbeliever. ."

No one can save themselves by doing their own self-righteous works. But the Bible does teach one can be saved by working GOD'S righteousness. (Acts 10:35).

Romans 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Context, Paul is lamenting over the fact his brethren in the flesh, the Jews were lost. In verse 3 above, Paul tells us WHY they were lost and WHY they were not saved.

This one verse mentions two completely different works:
1) going about establishing OWN self righteousness
2) submitting/obeying the righteousness (commands) OF GOD. (Psalms 119:172)

Those Jews were lost for they were performing work #1 going about establishing their OWN self-righteous works. Instead of obeying what God commanded them they were going about following their own ideas, their own traditions that made up for themselves.

Paul tells us these Jews could have been saved had they done the work of obeying the righteousness of God. They would NOT believe, they would NOT confess Romans 10:9,10 as God has instructed man to do therefore they were lost, they would NOT 'obey the gospel of Christ: Romans 10:16.

Peter said the same to the Gentiles in Acts 2:10 that everywhere them that fear God and "WORKTETH righteousness" are accepted with God. God command the Gentiles be water baptized and those that worked GOD'S righteousness in being water baptized were accepted with God.

As noted above EVERYONE is doing one of two things, they are either (1) disobeying God (serving sin unto death) or (2) obeying God (serving obedience unto righteousness). No in-between. You cannot show me a single example of one who continued in disobeying God, whose master was serving sin unto death that God justified/saved. Not one example.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Jesus referring to how one is born again of the Spirit would present the means of salvation in present tense, but Jesus did refer to a past tense of the result of having believed in Him in John 3:18 in that any one that believes is not condemned.

There is only two things a person can do
1) believe
2) not believe

The Bible is full of verses that says the unbeliever is lost. NOT ONE VERSE says an unbeliever will be saved. John 3:18 shows the state of unbelief is a state of already condemned not already saved.

John 3:18 "He that believeth (present tense) on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not (present tense) is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

The one qho quits having a present tense belief then becomes one with a present tense unbelief and is in a state of condemnation. The verse does not allow for "he that bleieveth not is not condemned."

In being His disciple; not in being saved. It is by continuing in His words is how a saved believer is His disciple that shall be received by the Bridegroom when He comes. Those saved believers that are not continuing in His words as His disciple, will not be received by the Bridegroom but denied entrance to the Marriage Supper in heaven.

IF ONE CONDITIONALLY continues in His word then one continues to be a disciple.
IF one therefore quits continuing in His word he no longer is a disciple, no longer saved. There is no salvation apart from the word, the light of Christ.

If you read 1 Corinthians 5:4-5 on what the church is to do towards an unrepentant brother, and what the purpose of excommunication will do as mirroring how God will judge His House at the pre great trib rapture, then you should be able to see how those unrepentant saints left behind will suffer the destruction of the flesh but their spirit shall be saved. So the physical bodies are destroyed for defiling the temple of God ( 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 ), but their spirit is saved in that day ( 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 )


There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth over the loss of their first inheritance of being received as a vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper, but the saints left behind to be damned as vessels unto dishonor ... shall be received in His House still.

Again, I do not believe not follow Premillennialism.

We are in the last dispensation so there is no future 1000 year reign, no tribulation, etc. The Hebrew writer says that it is appointed once to man to die and after this is judgement. So the state one dies in, either righteous or unrighteous, will determine his eternal fate. There is no future dispensation or 1000 year reign where men will get another chance at salvation.

The apostle John was dealing with believers that had thought sin was no longer sin when they were saved, which is why he was led to rebuke such thinking by referring to how Christ walked in the light. John went through the trouble of giving lines of discernment for believers to know whom was abiding in Him in speaking the truth and whom were not abiding in Him as having gone out from what have been taught of us.

Those that have gone astray are called to repentance; not to be saved again. Do consider that. If a well known christian went astray, the church is not ordered nor taught to preach the gospel to him again and to water baptized him again, but to correct him in order to lead him to repentance, but if he refuses, they were to excommunicate the "brother" until he did repent. Then he is welcomed back in again with no preaching the gospel to him nor water baptizing him again in order for him to come back in when he is just being called to repentance.

You post "Those that have gone astray are called to repentance; not to be saved again. "

The impenitent, all of them, are the ones that will be lost Romans 2:4-5.
Jesus said "repent or perish" Luke 13:3-5.

Therefore if a Christian turns to live in sin, say live in the sin of adultery, then he will be lost if he does not repent and get out of that sinful state. His impenitence will leave him to perish as Christ said he would.

Simon in Acts 8:13 believed and was baptized therefore in a saved state per Christ's own words of Mark 16:16, Now as a Christian he later sinned by trying to buy the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Peter commanded him to repent of his wickedness:
--The fact repentance was commanded makes it a necessity. Not obeying God is sin and not repenting then Simon would have been further rebellious to God.
--a person needs to be water baptized once. When one is water baptized the blood of Christ washes away all of the sins he hs committed and one becomes a Christian. Being a Christian he is to CONTINUE to walk in the light, then Christ's blood will CONTINUE to wash away all the sins he commits as a Christian, 1 John 1:7. This continued walking in the light includes repentance. Therefore the Christian that turns to live in adultery will no longer have all his sins washed away by the blood of Christ for he quit walling in the light. But if he repents of his adulterous state and returns to walking in the light again, then the blood of Christ will wash away all his sins. There is not salvation for the Christian that quits walking in the light thereby makes walking in the light a necessary condition the Christian must meet.
Walking in the light = continued hearing and following of Christ per John 10:27.

I understand your "concern" but you are misreading Paul's word to Timothy. There is salvation from the second death which all believers have obtained by believing in Him, but there is salvation from what is coming on the world when God does come to judge His House first at the pre great trib rapture event.

Again, there is no tribulation period, no 1000 year reign. One dies and then one will be judged by the state he died in whether it be righteous or unrighteous.

One of the major apostasy that God will judge when He comes is the spiritual apostasy involving these "movements of the 'spirit' " stemming from those that err in seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation in order to receive tongues without interpretation as a sign of that apostate second calling given to believers as that iniquity was already at work in Paul's day in 2 Thessalonians 2 nd chapter by which Paul reminded them all of the tradition taught of us when we had received the promise of the Spirit and the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 . In 2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 of addressing the falling away from the faith of the previous chapter, Paul cites those unreasonable wicked men that have not faith that no longer walk after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly ( as chaos and confusion reigns in these movements of the spirit ) that it is the Lord's commandment to withdraw from them, but not to treat them as the enemy, but to admonish them as brothers because they are still brothers ( 2 Thessalonians 3:16-17 ).

So in reading your reference in 1 Timothy 4:16, you are overlooking Paul addressing that falling away from the faith in 1 Timothy 4:1-2. His call to repent and to continue in the traditions taught of us is to save them from God judging those whom have gone astray as warned in 2 Thessalonians 2nd chapter which God will judge first as the Bridegroom BEFORE He comes back in judging Satan and the world's armies as the King of kings.

So there is a saving... but not from the second death, but from being left behind for unrepentant iniquity to incur the first death; physical death.

1 Tim 4:16 "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee."

Nothing you posted above changes this verse, even as badly as you are trying to change what it is saying.

For one who is already a Christian as Timothy, one must CONDITIONALLY continue in the doctrine and by doing so one is saving himself. Those that fall away in 1 Tim 4 are the ones that did not continue in the doctrine of Christ and those that do not have Christ's doctrine do not have God, 2 John 1:9.

Again, Premillennialism is a man made idea. The so called tribulation or 1000 year reign are not in the Bible. Men have taken highly figurative passages and twisted some fantastic ideas into them.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

I am not pulling John 10:28 out of context and wresting it.

You are if you ignore what designate sinners as His sheep are those who believe in Him from those that never did in John 10:26.

John 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Therefore in line with the rest of His words, the following verses are applied as those who believe in Him that hear His voice, shall follow Him.

John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

But there are sheep that are not of the fold that hears His voice in following Him, but have gone astray in climbing up another way as testified in John 10:1-5 by which they follow a stranger's voice as a result. That sheep that is not of the fold that follows His voice but a stranger's voice will be made to hear His voice and be of the one fold and one shepherd when those left behind saints are resurrected to see and hear their King of kings after the great tribulation.

John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Another example?

Philippians 1:
5 - For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now;
6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

I have seen verse pulled out of context and then the claim verse 6 proves eternal security, "until the day of Christ". Yet verse 5 shows those Philippians had been faithful in the gospel from the first day until now. In other words, they had faithfully continues to hear and follow Christ per John 8:27 from the first day until now. This is way Paul was confident that God would continue a good work in them.

How does one faithfully do that? By having faith and confidence in Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us to abide in Him & to follow Him.

Do we have an example of those who did NOT continue in the gospel as the Philippians? Yes. Galatians 1:6-7.

Do we find where Paul said of those Galatians that left the gospel of Christ that he was confident God would continue a good work in them until the day of Jesus Christ? Not at all.

What did Paul say about these Galatians who left the gospel?
O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, Gal 3:1
I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain. Gal 4:11
ye are fallen from grace. Gal 5:4
Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth? Gal 5:7

Same thing that Peter did in 1 Peter 4:17-19 wherein those unrepentant saints and former believers will suffer the coming fire on the earth and the great tribulation as a result from that fire, but He is faithful in doing a good job in keeping their souls well while they suffer being left behind.

(It's off topic but I do not go along with the man made idea or Premillennialism.)

You will have to tell me what Premillennialism is that you do not believe in. I know what I have shared but I never heard it as described as Premillennialism.

2 Timothy 2:
20 - But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.
21 - If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

Again, man has a role in his own salvation. Again "if" being a conditional word, IF a man purge himself. Peter said in 1 Peter 1:22 "Seeing you have purified your souls..." How can a man purge himself, purify his own soul? By being obedient to Christ. Christ saves those that obey Him Hebrews 5:9, so those that choose to obey Christ are in that sense saving themselves.

I acknowledge what is necessary to be received by the Bridegroom as vessels unto honor at the Marriage Supper as I see that inferring in those passages, but you are overlooking the implications of verse 20 testifying how in that great house, there is ALSO vessels unto dishonour in His House; vessels of wood and earth; hence a terrestrial inheritance; not the celestial one that the vessels unto honor are identified with.

Explain how there can still be vessels unto dishonor in His House when the call to repentance is to depart from iniquity in how one can hope in Him to achieve by laying aside every weight & sin to be received as that vessel unto honor? That means the vessels unto dishonor are those that did not depart from iniquity.

I do not agree at all with how you interpret John 10:16.

It was God's plan that salvation of the gospel was to first go to the Jew then to the Gentile, Romans 1:16. In John 10:16 Jesus is making a prophetic reference to those Gentiles that would obey the gospel which He would save...as Cornelieus in Acts 10. Hence Jew and Gentile would make up the one flock, the one body, the one church, Galatians 3:28; Colossians 3:11; etc.

That was an attempt on your part in trying to keep with your misapplication of scripture, but you are forgetting John 10:1-5 about how some will be led astray and Jesus cited the guide for how to avoid going astray in John 10:7-9.

The ones who are sealed are the ones who CONDITIONALLY become a Christian and faithfully remain in the group Christian,, faithfully remain in the church. One can become unfaithful and fall from the group. The group remains sealed but not the individual who fell. Revelations 3:14-20 Jesus was to spew out those that had become unfaithful. So how does one fall from the group, the church? He gets spewed out.

There is not an example of any individual in the NT who was UNconditionally sealed but was not conditionally a faithful Christian in the group/church.

I have shown you scripture references in 2 Timothy 2:18-21 for which you seem to gloss over certain wordings to suit your misapplication of scripture. So here is another one.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Here's another one:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Saved as in past tense. Paul went further to explain salvation as being without works but did emphasize to maintain good works not for the purpose of salvation, but it was for being profitable unto men.

Titus 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, 5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; 6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; 7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. 8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

John 10:27-28 one must hear and follow to qualify be a sheep of Christ for it is only Christ's sheep, those who are CONDITIONALLY in the group Christian/church being the ones that shall never perish.

Therefore if one becomes unfaithful by quitting hearing and following Christ he then is disqualified, no linger of Christ sheep, no longer in the group Christian that is sealed and will perish.

They will no longer be of the group of vessels unto honor in His House, but run the risk of being left behind in becoming vessels unto dishonor in His House when the Bridegroom comes.

An astounding statement that has no logical, Biblical basis.

None that you are willing to see even though that truth is in the scripture of King James Version.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

Again, John 10:27 says those who ongoingly hear and follow Him qualify as His sheep, in His possession. You are trying to create another qualification that does not exist, that being "My sheep do not hear My voice and do not follow Me". A sheep is another word for disciple and a disciple is a follower, a learner, an adherent to the teachings of another. How can one with a straight face claim he is a disciple of Christ when he is not following, not hearing, not learning, not adhering to Christ's teachings?

2 Timothy 2:13 is not saying God will be faithful anyway to those that quit believing.

God cannot lie, therefore when He makes a promise He keeps it. In Hebrews 5:9 God has promised to save those that obey Christ and in 2 Thessalonians 1:8 God has promised to have vengeance upon those that obey not the gospel of Christ. To claim God will save those that quit obeying by believing in goes against what God has already promised.

What Paul is saying in 2 Tim 2:13 is if a Christian does become unfaithful God will continue to be faithful to the words/promises He has made/said.

2 Timothy 2:112 says "If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:" Again a verse with the CONDITIONAL word "IF" and God will plainly deny those that deny Him and NOT save those that deny Him.

God will deny those that deny Him and God will not deny Himself.

And verse 13 says that even though they believe not any more, He still abides because He is faithful because of the New Covenant.

Incredible. Not a single NT verse says vessels of dishonor will be saved. If so, then what is it that distinguishes the vessel of honor from the vessel of dishonor, Romans 9:21.

Whenever you feel like addressing all the words in 2 Timothy 2:18-21 in keeping with Paul's message there about christian believers and former believers....I am still waiting.

2 Timothy 2:21 If a man purge himself he shall be a vessel of honor. As earlier, you are trying to create a verse that does not exisit, that being, "if a man does NOT purge himself he shall be a vessel of honor also" If a man does not have to purge himself and therefore live in sin and still be saved, then there was no need for Christ to die for man's sin and we are dealing with cheap grace, we are "turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness".

On the contrary, 2 Timothy 2:20 testifies how in that great house, there is not only vessel unto honor but also vessels unto dishonor, and clearly, the vessels unto dishonor are those with His seal that did not depart from iniquity for why they would be denied entrance to the Marriage Supper but He would still abide in those unrepentant saints left behind because He is faithful in the keeping of their souls while they suffer being left behind.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

"If we believe we are working to maintain our salvation, then we are denying Him as having been saved by Him."

The above statement has no Biblical basis, there is no verse that says such. It is a philosophy of man, nothing more.

Then you can't tell others that Jesus Christ is the Good News to man. You cannot tell others that Jesus Christ is your Saviour if you are not saved yet. You cannot tell others anything at all if your salvation is conditional and you know not what tomorrow will bring.

It cannot be a free gift when strings are attached.

Jesus cannot be the Saviour if He is not able to keep you saved.

So it is your errant conclusion at the expense of scripture that testifies otherwise is why you need to go before that throne of grace for help, because you are tying discipleship with obtaining salvation by.. and that makes you the saviour... not Jesus.

We have to have been saved as His when we had first believed in Him in order to have power to live as the sons of God.

But not every saved believer will bear fruit as His disciple because they set their relationship with the Lord aside to live their lives in the world.

That is why Jesus commands His disciples to teach in making disciples of new believers that have been saved so that they may also bear fruit and that their joy may be full.

Salvation is not obtained by discipleship. Salvation is not obtained by running that race. Being saved from being left behind is what that race is about, but we cannot run that race without Him as He has to help us lay aside every weight & sin in running that race to be received as vessels unto honor.

You have to ask yourself which is more important; your relationship with the Lord your Saviour & Good Shepherd, or your striving to prove that you are right at the expense of other scriptures that you are overlooking in saying that salvation is conditional?

If you think about it, you are not testifying of Him in seeking His glory as our Saviour, but you are talking about yourself in how YOU must be your own saviour because salvation is conditional as being based on YOU. So tell me how YOU can not avoid glorifying yourself in His Presence in thinking that way? I guarantee you, you will not be able to do that in His Presence.

Is not being water baptized an ordinance; a commandment for new believers to follow? And yet in regards to salvation, Paul testified to this.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God..................29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

So how can salvation be conditional if what He has done is permanent for why we are saved so we can tell the world Jesus is our Saviour?

Run that race by faith in Him as your Good Shepherd to help you lay aside every weight & sin and any works that deny Him. As it is, I have to say you are at risk of being left behind if you think running that race is about obtaining your salvation.

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

There is only two things a person can do
1) believe
2) not believe

The Bible is full of verses that says the unbeliever is lost. NOT ONE VERSE says an unbeliever will be saved. John 3:18 shows the state of unbelief is a state of already condemned not already saved.

John 3:18 "He that believeth (present tense) on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not (present tense) is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

The one qho quits having a present tense belief then becomes one with a present tense unbelief and is in a state of condemnation. The verse does not allow for "he that bleieveth not is not condemned."

2 Timothy 2:11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Are you going to overlook verse 13 as part of the faithful saying again?

Again, I do not believe not follow Premillennialism.

We are in the last dispensation so there is no future 1000 year reign, no tribulation, etc.

Did you check with the Book of Revelation?

Revelation 20:1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. 7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, 8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Hebrew writer says that it is appointed once to man to die and after this is judgement. So the state one dies in, either righteous or unrighteous, will determine his eternal fate. There is no future dispensation or 1000 year reign where men will get another chance at salvation.

Ignorance is not bliss, brother. Those who are the vessels unto dishonor will inherit a terrestrial inheritance.. the vessels of wood and earth that are in His House; as mentioned in 2 Timothy 2:20 of those that did not depart from iniquity. Only the power of the second death will not be over them BUT they will be marrying and having children; a generation coming out of the 1000 year reign that will be tested of their loyalty when Satan is released from the pit after that 1000 year reign. Those that remain loyal to Christ will be saved but those that depart from Him will be forever damned. There will be when another standard of judgment by how people treat one another for it will be the same as doing it unto Him, and the end result is the lake of fire, thus referring to the time of the great white throne judgement which will tale place after Satan has been defeated and cast into the lake of fire.

The coming generation out of the millennium reign cannot be saved by faith in Jesus Christ when they have been raised by Him as the King of kings where they can see and hear Him. So that is why another standard of judgment is being given in judging those people.

Matthew 13:33 testify symbolically that there are 3 harvests that makes up the kingdom of heaven. It is hidden so that in the end , all will be revealed before Jesus completes the kingdom of heaven by casting death & hell into the lake of fire finally before giving the kingdom back to the Father.

So the pre great trib rapture is the harvest of O.T. saints & N.T. saints in inheriting the celestial inheritance in the kingdom of heaven as vessels unto honor whereas those unrepentant saints & former believers left behind becomes vessels unto dishonor to receive their terrestrial inheritance after the great tribulation are of the second harvest along with new believers after that pre great trib rapture event. Then the third harvest is those remaining loyal to Christ after Satan has been released for a small season after a thousand year reign of our King of kings. Then after death & hell has been cast into the lake of fire with Satan and his angels and the people not foudn written in the Book of Life, Jesus gives the kingdom back to the Father.

1 Corinthians 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

So all I can do is pray for you as I hope those abiding in Him will also pray for you since only God can cause the increase; only the Lord can give you wisdom to see the truth in His words that you are overlooking.

I agree that there is a need to abide in Him, but it cannot be for salvation when Jesus IS my Saviour because I AM saved. The need to abide in Him is to bear fruit as His disciples and out joy may be full when we are received by the Bridegroom as vessels unto honor in His House at the Marriage Supper. So running that race is not for salvation, but to look to Him as our Good Shepherd in helping us to lay aside every weight & sin in saving ourselves from being left behind to incur a physical death for defiling the temple of God or even for not being willing to go when the Bridegroom comes because some saints will love their lives on earth rather than leave it for the one above as Jesus warned believers that could happen many times.