graven image?

[mjrhealth]

In other words - you don't have a valid response.
You can't show me ANY historical evidence of ANY Christian Church before the Catholic Church.

All you can show is the endless splinters that arose after the 16th century.
YOUR sect over at "aggressivechristianity.net" didn't come about until 1980. Talk about a johnny-come-lately group . . .

Yes BOl your church, the one you promote, the mother of all harlots. You have nothing , but sand beneath you feet. Prison is all you know, the darkness is where you stand. No life in your words, death spits out of your mouth. prison sentences to Gods people, like pharoah, condeming peopel to a life of slavery. You have nothing BOL thats why all you have to offer is your religion. Keep it up, you condemn yourself and teh rest of teh world with you.

 

[epostle1]

I don't think anyone asked

the area where the Lord gave the catholic church world power to bash and banish opposition to it, or says anything unfavorable about it, is long over at least by 700 years.

every time you and your enraged friends post, you affirm to others of their opinion that its a bad idea to be catholic. you know this correct? I mean you have to be doing this on purpose, making catholics look stupid, right?

Paintings and carvings found in the catacombs are relevant to the topic. You're upset because there is nothing Protestant in the evidence of the 1st 3 centuries. I gave physical evidence of the Catholicity of the early church, I didn't bash your church with senseless ignorance and bigotry. Archaeology is a science, not an opinion.

Luther and Calvin promoted the death sentence on anyone who didn't believe the way they did, and no pope did such a thing. Would you like documentation? You understand "documentation", don't you?
You don't document any of your anti-Catholic hate because lies can't be documented, just fabricated.

 

[DPMartin]

Paintings and carvings found in the catacombs are relevant to the topic. You're upset because there is nothing Protestant in the evidence of the 1st 3 centuries. I gave physical evidence of the Catholicity of the early church, I didn't bash your church with senseless ignorance and bigotry. Archaeology is a science, not an opinion.

Luther and Calvin promoted the death sentence on anyone who didn't believe the way they did, and no pope did such a thing. Would you like documentation? You understand "documentation", don't you?
You don't document any of your anti-Catholic hate because lies can't be documented, just fabricated.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.



So many wear crosses, crucifixes, they have them hanging on their walls at home or pictures of crosses or what they may think Jesus looked like, paintings statuses of sorts, and as far as we know one wouldn’t bow to them but are they offensive to the Lord? Why was the Lord adamant about an image. Messages of many sorts are in images political propaganda for one and the Catholic church used paintings and images to convey a message to a people that most likely could read or write.


But, thing is, the Word of God conveys the image of God to His creation and the creatures therein, no physical thing can be in the image of God, and it’s through God’s Word we know and worship Him.

 

[epostle1]

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

These are out of context quotes typically used by iconoclasts. It doesn't mean what you want it to mean. If it did, God would be violating His own commands with the images in the Temple and the bronze serpent. These quotes mean man made objects are not to be worshiped, they don't ban all images per se. Your hyper-literalism is false. 95% of what you believe to be true about the Catholic Church IS FALSE. Col. 1:15 – the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the “image” (Greek “eikon”) of the invisible God. Get it?

Deut. 4:15 – from this verse, Protestants say that since we saw “no form” of the Lord, we should not make graven images of Him.

Deut. 4:16 – of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn’t yet reveal himself visibly “in the form of any figure.”

Deut. 4:17-19 – hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.

Exodus 3:2-3; Dan 7:9; Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Acts 2:3- later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).

Deut. 5:8 – God’s commandment “thou shall not make a graven image” is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 – for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

Num. 21:8-9 – God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 – Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship. (what is so "biblical" about bare white walls?)

2 Kings 18:4 – it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God’s wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.

1 Chron. 28:18-19 – David gives Solomon the plan for the altar made of refined gold with a golden cherubim images. These images were used in the Jews’ most solemn place of worship.

2 Chron. 3:7-14 – the house was lined with gold with elaborate cherubim carved in wood and overlaid with gold.

Ezek. 41:15 – Ezekiel describes graven images in the temple consisting of carved likenesses of cherubim. These are similar to the images of the angels and saints in many Catholic churches.

Col. 1:15 – the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the “image” (Greek “eikon”) of the invisible God.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Scripture does not condemn the use of images to aid in worshiping God, as some Christian communities suppose. On the contrary, the Old Testament is full of examples of God giving the Israelites permission to do just that, as in the pillars of cloud and fire and Ark of the Covenant, both pictured here in Benjamin West’s 19th century work.

.
Sometimes we miss things in the Bible, though they are right in front of us. Some of our Protestant brethren (mainly Calvinists, but some other denominations as well) have an almost obsessive fear of any image associated with worship at all, thinking that all such manifestations are examples of idolatry and undue exaltation of a “graven image.”

In other words, all images whatsoever are collapsed in this wrongheaded mentality into the category of the “graven image, forbidden in the Ten Commandments.” But the Bible doesn’t take this view at all. Here is one striking example:

Exodus 33:8-10

Note that the pillar of cloud is:

1.) a creation (water, if a literal cloud);

2.) visual, hence an image; and

3.) thought to directly represent God Himself.

It’s also a supernatural manifestation, which is a major difference compared to any true idol made by the hands of men; but that would make no difference for those who mistakenly hold that any image whatsoever associated with God is impermissible.

The Bible mentions a pillar of cloud and also a pillar of fire (by night), representing God (see: Ex 13:21-22; 14:24; Num 14:14; Neh 9:12, 19). It doesn’t always state that the people worshiped God through the supernatural image-pillars, but we know from Exodus 33:8-10 that it was entirely permissible to do so; certainly not “idolatry.”

The problem (for certain Christians who don’t like images) comes when God Himself expressly sanctions such images, and worship in conjunction with them, as here. The same iconoclasts (opposers of images) have to explain away things like the burning bush (Ex 3:2-6), which is not only fire, but also called an “angel of the Lord” (Ex 3:2), yet also “God” (3:4, 6, 11, 13-16, 18; 4:5, 7-8) and “the LORD” (3:7, 16, 18; 4:2, 4-6, 10-11, 14) interchangeably.

Good Protestant idols

At the centre of the Wall are idols to William Farel, John Calvin, Theodore Beza, and John Knox.
Good idols found in millions of Protestant homes at Christmas time:

"Bad" Catholic statue:

There is something wrong with your perception, DPM. You should learn how to read scripture and not use it as a weapon against The Church. The Bible never does that.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Yes BOl your church, the one you promote, the mother of all harlots. You have nothing , but sand beneath you feet. Prison is all you know, the darkness is where you stand. No life in your words, death spits out of your mouth. prison sentences to Gods people, like pharoah, condeming peopel to a life of slavery. You have nothing BOL thats why all you have to offer is your religion. Keep it up, you condemn yourself and teh rest of teh world with you.

Thanks for proving my point once more. You can't show me ANY historical evidence of ANY Christian Church before the Catholic Church. Don't they teach you anything of substance at your online cult "aggressivechristianity.net"??

All you have are impotent insults like "death pits" and "harlots" - but NO actual evidence.
That's what I thought . . .

 

[mjrhealth]

Thanks for proving my point once more. You can't show me ANY historical evidence of ANY Christian Church before the Catholic Church. Don't they teach you anything of substance at your online cult "aggressivechristianity.net"??

All you have are impotent insults like "death pits" and "harlots" - but NO actual evidence.
That's what I thought .

You think a lot BOL but still know nothing, God has being around forever, ann His word as Christ since our Lords Birth, they dont need your religion nor men top save anyone, its just thos antichrist doctrines than mens religions preach that send people to prison and keep them from God, you know this bit,

Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

That bit, keep digging your grave you have a few following after you.

Where would you be without your religion,

 

[brakelite]

BOL was challenging anyone who suggested a Christian church existing before Rome. He has me on ignore I think, so I don't expect a personal response, but here is my answer, copied from another thread.
Tell me, whether from your opinion or from what you have been taught, what do you suppose took place immediately after Pentecost? Did a Christian church all of a sudden appear in Rome by some miracle and upon which God placed authority over all Christian churches worldwide? Because the Bible says otherwise. The Bible says that the Christian faith grew first in Palestine, then after a few years through Paul in particular, spread elsewhere.

Allow me to give you a little history lesson. It was in and around 35ad that Paul was converted. He then spent 3 years studying in the desert before returning to Jerusalem to preach to his fellow Jews. Having been rejected by them, he went to the gentiles. So did others, such as Peter and Philip. And Apollos. But most of the apostles started on and around Palestine. Jerusalem was where they held the first church council. A hearing to confirm Paul's ministry to the gentiles.

The First churches to be established were in Asia minor. Ephesus, Corinth, etc. Then in 70ad, before Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, all the Christians escaped to Perea and Antioch. It was in Antioch that they were first called Christians. Philip baptised that Ethiopian official remember? Well he went home and established an Ethiopian Christian church that survives to this day. Thomas went to India, and established the church in Goa. The"St Thomas Christians" as they are known, were renowned for mainly two things. Being persecuted by the inquisition because they refused to submit to papal authority, and for spreading the gospel into the far east. India, Assyria, Persia, Afghanistan, and China, all had large Christian communities without ANY reference or help from any Roman Bishop. The pope was not the head of those churches. Jesus was.

The Celtic church in Britain was the same. Established before the end of the 2 ND century, and a couple of hundred years before Rome sent any missionaries anywhere. In fact Augustine was a very surprised little monk when He discovered a Christian church thriving in a place he thought was full of Pagans.

All these, and more, were established through the missionary activities of churches that had no connection whatsoever with Rome.

The only way Rome gained any supremacy at all within Christendom was through persecution of those who denied papal authority and through war. Jesus did not establish a Roman hierarchal system to lord it over everyone else... Satan did.
No church before the Catholic church? What about the church Paul/Saul was persecuting before he was converted? You really believe the RCC existed before that church?

 

[BreadOfLife]

You think a lot BOL but still know nothing, God has being around forever, ann His word as Christ since our Lords Birth, they dont need your religion nor men top save anyone, its just thos antichrist doctrines than mens religions preach that send people to prison and keep them from God, you know this bit,
Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
That bit, keep digging your grave you have a few following after you.
Where would you be without your religion,

Hmmmm - 4 or 5 posts now and you STILL haven't been able to show me ANY historical evidence of ANY Christian Church before the Catholic Church.

This is getting embarrassing . . .

 

[mjrhealth]

Hmmmm - 4 or 5 posts now and you STILL haven't been able to show me ANY historical evidence of ANY Christian Church before the Catholic Church.

This is getting embarrassing . . .

Why are you embarrassed at your foolishness???

Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

No catholic church, anywhere in the bible, seems it wasnt important enough to even mention. you love you Idol dont you, There is a reason why God said we shouldnt have them you are the evidence,

And dont be embarrassed, everyone knows you here , you dont surprise us anymore,

God bless

 

[BreadOfLife]

Why are you embarrassed at your foolishness???
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

No catholic church, anywhere in the bible, seems it wasnt important enough to even mention. you love you Idol dont you, There is a reason why God said we shouldnt have them you are the evidence,
And dont be embarrassed, everyone knows you here , you dont surprise us anymore,
God bless

I'm embarrassed for YOU - not me.
Ignorance is always an embarrassment - when a person refuses to learn.

Funny - I don't see YOUR online cult mentioned in the Letters to the 7 Churches in Revelation either.
Where is the letter to "aggressivechristianity.net"??
That's what I thought . . .

 

[mjrhealth]

I'm embarrassed for YOU - not me.

Speak for yourself. You cant help it can you, this bit

Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

you just will not allow anyone near Christ, this bit

Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

and you just will not let anyone serve nor worship God , this bit

Exo_9:13 And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.

you wont will you, you will just not let anyone near God can you?? this bit

Exo_9:17 As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?

Have a good day, surely I will with Christ and God and without your hypocrisies.

God bless

 

[BreadOfLife]

Speak for yourself. You cant help it can you, this bit
Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
you just will not allow anyone near Christ, this bit
Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
and you just will not let anyone serve nor worship God , this bit
Exo_9:13 And the LORD said unto Moses, Rise up early in the morning, and stand before Pharaoh, and say unto him, Thus saith the LORD God of the Hebrews, Let my people go, that they may serve me.
you wont will you, you will just not let anyone near God can you?? this bit
Exo_9:17 As yet exaltest thou thyself against my people, that thou wilt not let them go?
Have a good day, surely I will with Christ and God and without your hypocrisies.
God bless

ALL of which is simply another way of telling me that you STILL haven't been able to show me ANY historical evidence of ANY Christian Church before the Catholic Church.

That's what I thought . . .

 

[mjrhealth]

ALL of which is simply another way of telling me that you STILL haven't been able to show me ANY historical evidence of ANY Christian Church before the Catholic Church.

That's what I thought . . .

Dont have to you have no evidence it was teh first, like I said not mentioned in teh bible no where. Reading your posts in the morning is like sitting in a funeral listening to peoples obituaries, since all you speak of is death.

Like I said, you simply cannot and will not let people go to Christ not r let men serve God, can you, it is so beneath you to let men near Him

Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

Mat 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

God bless

 

[Marymog]

BOL was challenging anyone who suggested a Christian church existing before Rome.

Hi brokelite,

What post # did he make that challenge in?

Curious Mary

 

[brakelite]

Hi brokelite,

What post # did he make that challenge in?

Curious Mary

Just two posts above Mary. And don't go down the road of claiming BOL meant a universal Christian church. Because the Roman edition claims universality, doesn't make it so. Because Rome claims that because they have 2 billion adherents worldwide does not make them truly Catholic...else why would Rome set itself in opposition to those Christian churches who refuse to submit to Roman authority? The apostolic church was truly Catholic....truly universal in that they viewed the salvation of all kindreds, nations, tongues and peoples without favour or bias, as being the goal of the gospel. The Roman church that grew in the early centuries was historically, theologically, soteriologically very different from the apostolic church which grew to all parts of the world before any missionary from Rome demanded submission to any pope.

 

[brakelite]

Tell me, whether from your opinion or from what you have been taught, what do you suppose took place immediately after Pentecost? Did a Christian church all of a sudden appear in Rome by some miracle and upon which God placed authority over all Christian churches worldwide? Because the Bible says otherwise. The Bible says that the Christian faith grew first in Palestine, then after a few years through Paul in particular, spread elsewhere.

Allow me to give you a little history lesson. It was in and around 35ad that Paul was converted. He then spent 3 years studying in the desert before returning to Jerusalem to preach to his fellow Jews. Having been rejected by them, he went to the gentiles. So did others, such as Peter and Philip. And Apollos. But most of the apostles started on and around Palestine. Jerusalem was where they held the first church council. A hearing to confirm Paul's ministry to the gentiles.

The First churches to be established were in Asia minor. Ephesus, Corinth, etc. Then in 70ad, before Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans, all the Christians escaped to Perea and Antioch. It was in Antioch that they were first called Christians. Philip baptised that Ethiopian official remember? Well he went home and established an Ethiopian Christian church that survives to this day. Thomas went to India, and established the church in Goa. The"St Thomas Christians" as they are known, were renowned for mainly two things. Being persecuted by the inquisition because they refused to submit to papal authority, and for spreading the gospel into the far east. India, Assyria, Persia, Afghanistan, and China, all had large Christian communities without ANY reference or help from any Roman Bishop. The pope was not the head of those churches. Jesus was.

@Marymog Can you answer this Mary in BOL's absence?

 

[Philip James]

Brakelite,
Just as at Antioch we were first called Christians, so too it is from Antioch that we first have record of the Church being called 'Catholic'

Here's a little sonething else from that great hero of the faith, Ignatius of Antioch:
“Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons.”

— St. Ignatius Of Antioch, Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!

 

[Marymog]

Just two posts above Mary. .....

I see. Twisting BOL’s words like you twist scripture. Why don’t you just quote him instead of making up your own words????? (You know you can cut and paste his words instead of making them up)

We’re you able to provide any historical evidence of a Christian church before the Catholic Church?

If you did I apologize, I missed it.

Curious Mary

 

[BreadOfLife]

Dont have to you have no evidence it was teh first, like I said not mentioned in teh bible no where. Reading your posts in the morning is like sitting in a funeral listening to peoples obituaries, since all you speak of is death.
Like I said, you simply cannot and will not let people go to Christ not r let men serve God, can you, it is so beneath you to let men near Him
Mat_23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Mat 19:13 Then were there brought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them, and pray: and the disciples rebuked them.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
God bless

Actually - you DO have to show me.

You see - this entire exchange began when YOU said that people have been exposing the "lies" of the Catholic Church - from the beginning.

I asked you when the Catholic Church came into existence, if they were being exposed "from the beginning" - and YOU'VE been running from this question ever since. The first clue that you are wrong is that you can't tell me when this supposed beginning took place.

In other words, you just exposed your lies . . . AGAIN.

 

[Marymog]

@Marymog Can you answer this Mary in BOL's absence?

Hi brokelite,

I can destroy your lies and theories just as easily as @BreadOfLife can however i will let the great dragon slayer destroy you instead. I plan to just sit back and watch and learn from the master :)

It’s not like any of it matters. As I have recently learned the only right scriptural interpretations are the ones you approve of. Even your own church has gotten some of their scriptural interpretations wrong....haven't they Brokelite?

Mary