Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

[Taken]

I use the definition of Luther when I talk about sola scriptura.

How many definitions are there?
And which one do I supposedly use?

Before and after sola scriptura, Many Christians view the Bible and Tradition as final authority.

Are you saying according to Luther, sola scriptura means the Bible AND Tradition is the final authority?

And according to who else, is it something different?

And what is the difference?

 

[aspen]

How many definitions are there?
And which one do I supposedly use?



Are you saying according to Luther, sola scriptura means the Bible AND Tradition is the final authority?

And according to who else, is it something different?

And what is the difference?

Luther made up the term - it is a cornerstone of Protestant theology - it maens Bible Alone, which claims the Bible as the final authority. Before Luther, Christians looked to the Bible and to Tradition as equal authorities. And actually, since the New Testament took a couple hundred years to be agreed upon, the leadership of the Apostles was the authority

 

[Taken]

Luther made up the term - it is a cornerstone of Protestant theology - it maens Bible Alone, which claims the Bible as the final authority. Before Luther, Christians looked to the Bible and to Tradition as equal authorities. And actually, since the New Testament took a couple hundred years to be agreed upon, the leadership of the Apostles was the authority

And so, You have decided I have limited myself to Scripture Alone?

Or Scripture AND Tradition Alone?

God Bless,
Taken

 

[Taken]

@GodsGrace ...

Yes, it is interesting and not a bad model as the basis of discussion. I would just want to modify it a bit…

The spirit of people if born-again is dominated by the spirit of Christ and connected to us via God’s spirit or consciousness. It has a mind and will that are present whether we like it or not. It will not go away whether we say we want to walk away from it or not. It is the ‘seal’ of salvation. We really cannot walk away from it. We are just choosing to listen to our soulish will, that’s all that is occurring when we say we walk away from it.

I would say the circle? mark is the true “I” the deepest part of us, the heart. It gets filled with either the mind of the soul or the mind or will of the new spirit. It is a binary fill, either the soul’s will or the spirit’s will occupied it at any time. It is a lifelong struggle although our new spirit wins over it more as were grow in faith. As we grow in faith, the center circle is filled more and more by the spirit will and mind of Christ. You cannot remove the spirit of Christ. You cannot die without salvation once you have it even if your last state of 'I' is filled with the will of the soul.

Also, we don’t have a soul, we are a soul. We are also a spirit, whether it is dead or alive in Christ.

APAK

I disagree somewhat.

I believe the whole body is a physical earthly man. (Brain, thoughts, heart, blood, bones, tissue, etc.);
An Earthen "Created" "form" Vessel from Dustm BY God.

Gen 2:7
...the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground

"pro-created" by mans seed, according to Gods design, and every man "formed" BY God in the womb.

Isa 49:5
...the LORD that formed me from thy womb..

And every body it's own "identity", "Name", Given BY Men.

Gen 3:20
...Adam called his wife's Name Eve..

(With the first male and female the exception, being named by God).

Gen 5:2
Male and Female "created" he them; and blessed them, and called their Name Adam.

So male and female is "created", formed, Named, blessed....AND are neither DEAD OR ALIVE.

GOD IS LIFE, AND NO creature HAS LIFE IN IT, Until God gives it Life.

God GIVES LIFE...and God TAKES AWAY LIFE.

God GIVING LIFE TO the MAN, called ADAM.

Gen 2:7
....the Breath of Life..

And How God gave MAN, the Breath of Life.

Gen 2:7
....breathed into his nostrils..

SO the FORMED MAN, received LIFE from God, via God blowing Life INTO the MANS formed nostrils.

And the MAN...stopped being a FORM? No.
The MAN IS still a FORMED BODY of dust.

Now the MAN is a LIVING Formed body of Dust.

The MAN of DUST, has JUST been QUICKENED, meaning HIS OWN LIFE has been brought INTO a LIVING STATE.

And WHAT IS this own FORMED BODY'S own LIFE that is Quickened...ie brought into Living? Blood.

Gen 9:4
... the flesh with the LIFE thereof, Which IS the BLOOD thereof....

Also Gen 9:5..
God REQUIRES the Life (ie the BLOOD) of every man.

So the QUICKENING of a Formed Man..
Is via Gods Breath, that He blows into a man.

And as soon as a Quickened man EXHALES...his first breath given him from God...

Does Gods Breath EXIT the man? No.

Gods QUICKENING, et, giving of LIFE, TO Something, is always IMPARTED into a VESSEL...

Case in point...
Gods BREATH of LIFE, is INTO a vessel, called a SOUL.
Gods SPIRIT of LIFE, is INTO a vessel, called a HEART.

Where does the HEART come from?
It is a vessel God created within a man, FROM DUST.

Where does the SOUL come from?
It is a vessel God made and IMPARTS LIFE from Him, and then IMPARTS the Vessel (soul) with His Breath (LIFE) into the FORMED Body, He called man.

Isa 57:16
...the souls which I have made.

The BODY, God "creates" FROM DUST.
The SOUL, God has "made", and gives it LIFE,
...and IMPARTS that LIFE into the BODY.
The BODY, SHALL have it's LIFE (blood)
...brought into LIVING, by Gods SOUL, with
...His LIFE in it.
The SOUL, thus is a vessel with Gods LIFE in
...it

BODY's SHALL die, and return to the Dust.

The SOUL, belongs to GOD, has LIFE FROM HIM IN IT, and SHALL depart a DEAD BODY.

DEAD BODY's are buried, covering the Stench of its DEAD rotting Flesh, tissue, bones, that it may return to dust, from whence it came.

Ecc 3:20
All go to one place; all are of dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecc 12:7
...dust return to the earth as it Was..

AND the SOUL, that belongs to God, that has LIFE from God IN IT?

Did it come out of the Earth, or return to the Earth...? No.


Continued...

 

[APAK]

I disagree somewhat.

I believe the whole body is a physical earthly man. (Brain, thoughts, heart, blood, bones, tissue, etc.);
An Earthen "Created" "form" Vessel from Dustm BY God.

Gen 2:7
...the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground

"pro-created" by mans seed, according to Gods design, and every man "formed" BY God in the womb.

Isa 49:5
...the LORD that formed me from thy womb..

And every body it's own "identity", "Name", Given BY Men.

Gen 3:20
...Adam called his wife's Name Eve..

(With the first male and female the exception, being named by God).

Gen 5:2
Male and Female "created" he them; and blessed them, and called their Name Adam.

So male and female is "created", formed, Named, blessed....AND are neither DEAD OR ALIVE.

GOD IS LIFE, AND NO creature HAS LIFE IN IT, Until God gives it Life.

God GIVES LIFE...and God TAKES AWAY LIFE.

God GIVING LIFE TO the MAN, called ADAM.

Gen 2:7
....the Breath of Life..

And How God gave MAN, the Breath of Life.

Gen 2:7
....breathed into his nostrils..

SO the FORMED MAN, received LIFE from God, via God blowing Life INTO the MANS formed nostrils.

And the MAN...stopped being a FORM? No.
The MAN IS still a FORMED BODY of dust.

Now the MAN is a LIVING Formed body of Dust.

The MAN of DUST, has JUST been QUICKENED, meaning HIS OWN LIFE has been brought INTO a LIVING STATE.

And WHAT IS this own FORMED BODY'S own LIFE that is Quickened...ie brought into Living? Blood.

Gen 9:4
... the flesh with the LIFE thereof, Which IS the BLOOD thereof....

Also Gen 9:5..
God REQUIRES the Life (ie the BLOOD) of every man.

So the QUICKENING of a Formed Man..
Is via Gods Breath, that He blows into a man.

And as soon as a Quickened man EXHALES...his first breath given him from God...

Does Gods Breath EXIT the man? No.

Gods QUICKENING, et, giving of LIFE, TO Something, is always IMPARTED into a VESSEL...

Case in point...
Gods BREATH of LIFE, is INTO a vessel, called a SOUL.
Gods SPIRIT of LIFE, is INTO a vessel, called a HEART.

Where does the HEART come from?
It is a vessel God created within a man, FROM DUST.

Where does the SOUL come from?
It is a vessel God made and IMPARTS LIFE from Him, and then IMPARTS the Vessel (soul) with His Breath (LIFE) into the FORMED Body, He called man.

Isa 57:16
...the souls which I have made.

The BODY, God "creates" FROM DUST.
The SOUL, God has "made", and gives it LIFE,
...and IMPARTS that LIFE into the BODY.
The BODY, SHALL have it's LIFE (blood)
...brought into LIVING, by Gods SOUL, with
...His LIFE in it.
The SOUL, thus is a vessel with Gods LIFE in
...it

BODY's SHALL die, and return to the Dust.

The SOUL, belongs to GOD, has LIFE FROM HIM IN IT, and SHALL depart a DEAD BODY.

DEAD BODY's are buried, covering the Stench of its DEAD rotting Flesh, tissue, bones, that it may return to dust, from whence it came.

Ecc 3:20
All go to one place; all are of dust, and all turn to dust again.

Ecc 12:7
...dust return to the earth as it Was..

AND the SOUL, that belongs to God, that has LIFE from God IN IT?

Did it come out of the Earth, or return to the Earth...? No.
Continued...

Yes I believe the whole body is as you described...brains, physical sensors etc....

I believe we are a soul due to the same support you provided, a living breathing being....as do other animals.

I believe the soul is the outer wheelhouse of the conscious will, mind, thoughts, feelings, emotions and not sure on the sub-conscious.

We are a spirit as well....we have the sense intuition, and communication with God if our spirit is regenerated.

Now there are 2 sticky parts I have:

When the spirit is not 'dead' and can relate to God, do we have the will/mind of Christ in our spirit, and if so, it should be in our spirit. I think so.
WE really then have two wills...

And the second part is, the location of the real 'I' in the heart, as being separate from the soul and spirit..I think, the 'I' would be in the spirit (of a regenerated person) if we did not have to deal with the corrupt soul mind...???

I get the impression in scripture that the heart is ALWAYS FILLED with either the spirit of Christ or the thoughts of the soul. It like a vehicle, the heart is the type of fuel we fill up with.....determines whether we are growing in faith or staying as a carnal believer. I believe we cannot always be filled with Christ all the time because of the struggle with the soulish mind and its will.

I also believe that even someone of little faith and they want to reject the spirit of Christ from their soulish mind, they will not succeed. It is there for good once we accept the gift of life...

Your thoughts..

 

[Taken]

APAK...@ GodsGrace

Continued...

Ezekiel 18:4
...all souls are MINE....(God)
...the soul that sinneth, it SHALL die...

Ecc 12:
...dust return to dust..
...AND the spirit return to God who gave it.

God IS Spirit, thus what HE GIVES a man IS Spiritual.

His Breath of Life is a Spiritual Gift.
The vessel that holds His Breath of Life is His vessel that He has made, (soul) and it is His.

So .. HOW and WHY and WHEN does man (formed BODY) "become" a living soul?

Gen 2:7
How...BY Gods blowing Into the man.
WHY...So the man, body will come into a living state.
WHEN..the body IS formed and can receive it's LIFE from God to bring it's own LIFE into a living state.

So why IS a man CALLED, a LIVING SOUL?

Simply because THAT soul, which was MADE by God, belongs TO God, has Gods Life In it...
IS CALLED BY THE SAME IDENTITY NAME the Body of Man is called.

Mankind IS a man kind of Body, and is a body.
Man HAS a soul, that belongs to God, and has Gods Life in it.
Both ARE called by the SAME identity name.

God SHALL kill the BODY of every Man, when He requires that Mans BLOOD.

God SHALL depart HIS LIVING SOULS, ie his souls, with His breath of life in the souls;
OUT OF DEAD MEN...ie DEAD BODY's.

Ecc 12:7
Notifies us...the Spirit, (who is God, who is Life), returns to God, WHEN the Man, BODY, returns to the earth.

Further discovery via Jesus' teaching, reveals,
Life from God, IN A SOUL, IN a man, "does NOT Always GO " DIRECTLY "TO" God.

Nor does the IDENTITY ie, NAME given that SOUL, change when the "living soul" departs the Dead BODY, nor does the SOUL, stop Living, because it has departed a Dead Body.

A SOUL, is NOT a BODY.
A BODY, is a formed vessel God has created and formed from Dust.
A SOUL, is a vessel God has made....from what? And is it a FORM?

Scripture never identifies a SOUL as a FORM.
Scripture never directly says WHAT God made a soul From.

However further information reveals...
Created Body's come from DUST and RETURN to DUST.
Made Souls come from God and ....

SOME RETURN to God..
And
SOME become destroyed BY FIRE and remain as ASH IN the Earth.

LIFE within the SOUL, Shall return to God, as HIS LIFE, is never destroyed.

And what about the SOME souls that RETURN to God?

Those souls are "MADE", to be forever LIVING, as God "MAKE'S" them FORGIVEN of their SIN, as God "MAKE"S them "RESTORED" to VERY GOOD, as they were when God imparted it into a man (body), as God NEVER departs HIS LIFE, from OUT of such SOUL.

A soul is simply a type of Vessel, with life from God IN IT, called by a man's body's NAME, and imparted into a Body, via God, and quickens the Body into it's own Blood living state.

A SAVED soul, shall forever be forgiven once it IS forgiven and restored.
It shall have forever Life from God IN IT.
It shall never be destroyed.

We further learn from Jesus' teachings; the SOUL, imparted into a man (body) gives that man "unseen" abilities.
FEELINGS, EMOTIONS, ie, joy, sorrow, gladness, sadness, happiness, depression, love, etc.

We further learn from Jesus' teachings; that a living soul, departed out of a DEAD body, retains LIFE from God, and the emotions...
AND the ability to retain SENSES the BODY had..ie...sight, hearing, speech, touch, smell.

Whether or not; the departed living soul...IS
WITH God, or Separated from God, ie WITHOUT God....All souls are still Living, that have been departed out of Dead Body's.

There has BEEN much revealed of what SHALL come to pass, regarding Body's and Soul's...

However...
There has been NO "pronounced" Judgement of ANY Body, dead or alive; or ANY Living soul, which is with or without God.

The BODY is one thing. And has particular Judgements it is Subject to.

The SOUL is another thing. And has particular Judgements it is Subject to.

Both are called by the SAME identity...but are NOT the same things.

The the "spriit" of man, is an additional subject of what it is, and is subject to.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[BreadOfLife]

BOL, the warnings are not to lose salvation but to live a better life in Christ and to stay on the right path. Trying to keep your self saved by what you do is human tradition, no? God bless.

Col 2:8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

They are WARNINGS nonetheless.
What good is a warning if there are NO consequences?

 

[GodsGrace]

@GodsGrace ...

Yes, it is interesting and not a bad model as the basis of discussion. I would just want to modify it a bit…

The spirit of people if born-again is dominated by the spirit of Christ and connected to us via God’s spirit or consciousness. It has a mind and will that are present whether we like it or not. It will not go away whether we say we want to walk away from it or not. It is the ‘seal’ of salvation. We really cannot walk away from it. We are just choosing to listen to our soulish will, that’s all that is occurring when we say we walk away from it.

I would say the circle? mark is the true “I” the deepest part of us, the heart. It gets filled with either the mind of the soul or the mind or will of the new spirit. It is a binary fill, either the soul’s will or the spirit’s will occupied it at any time. It is a lifelong struggle although our new spirit wins over it more as were grow in faith. As we grow in faith, the center circle is filled more and more by the spirit will and mind of Christ. You cannot remove the spirit of Christ. You cannot die without salvation once you have it even if your last state of 'I' is filled with the will of the soul.

Also, we don’t have a soul, we are a soul. We are also a spirit, whether it is dead or alive in Christ.

APAK

In your second paragraph you're talking about eternal security.
As you must know by now, I believe in free will. Just as we've become connected to God through the awakened spirit within us, we can also walk away from God, to put it your way. And I do agree with how you described it...we literally must walk away from God to become lost again.

I don't know what the soulish will is. You must surely mean our will. Or maybe you mean the flesh which is opposed to the spirit.

If you want to say we are a soul, I could live with that. Although I see it as limiting.
We are a soul, that's what let's us be us, each one of us is different in some way.
But wouldn't you say we also ARE a body; we also ARE a spirit? I don't think I could separate any of the three . We are all three.

I also agree basically with the idea of the circle maybe being our entire self.
We struggle for the spirit to win...it's a life.long struggle; although it should become less and less of a struggle.

The way you describe the soul and spiritis a bit confusing.
How it's normally explained is that our spirit affects our soul.

If we are not born again, our mind, emotions and will are programmed in a certain direction --- mostly away from God.

Once we become born again our spirit, or God consciousness, changes our mind, emotions and our will, in a way that is pleasing to God and desires to follow Him.
For instance, scripture tells us to renew our mind.
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

It shows us how God would want us to control our emotions:
Proverbs 16:32
He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, And he who rules his spirit, than he who captures a city.

It shows us how we should use our will for service to God.
Mark 8:34
34And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

 

[GodsGrace]

I specifically stated in my post that I was speaking about my spiritual experience, not the Catholic Church so why would you ask me about the Catholic Church?

It seemed to me that you were saying that you switched to the CC and liked it because it was deterministic, as you also understood things to be.
Sorry if I misunderstood you. Doesn't seem like a big deal to me...

Here's what you said:

This conversation is interesting because I am realizing that when I joined the Catholic Church, it was really a mental shift from freewill to determinism. It was a coming home for me and a place for me to start exercising faith - accepting what is instead of pretending that I am in control of circumstances. I am talking about my own process not about Catholicism. Life has a lot to teach if you sit still longer enough to pay attention. I no longer worry about things I can’t control - heaven/hell is not up to me, it is up to God. The only thing I really can control is how to love others

But you DID mention the church...

I woldn't want those following along to get the idea that Catholicism is deterministic.

 

[GodsGrace]

I have a different understanding.

1) the body of man is "created"...by God, from dust.
2) that body has all the physical components to function naturally.
3) one of the components is a BRAIN, that is used to think, reason, learn, logically weigh ideas, imagine, decides, store memory, etc.
4) the action of the BRAIN, as just described, IS what the MIND does.
5) the Brain also has other functions, via nerve connections, which signal the body parts to move, in particular ways, (walk, sit, turn your head, close your eyes, etc.)
6) Thus saying, the Brain is part of the natural body...and the Mind is part of the Brain with cognitive abilities.

1) the heart is also part of the natural body, so created.
2 ) the heart has within it, thoughts as well, as the BRAIN has thought, call the Mind.
3) the thoughts in the heart are in a mans spirit.
4) the thoughts in a mans spirit, are simply his truth.
5) a Mind can have both TRUE thoughts and LIE thoughts.
6) a spirit IS a mans TRUE thought.

So recapping...
The body is "created" by God, from dust.
The body has numerous parts.
The body can do nothing with out life in it.
...Once life is introduced into the body..

The Body has it's OWN "NATURAL" LIFE.
A Brain, with cognitive skills, called the MIND.
A Heart, with a spirit, called mans Truth.
A Blood, that is a mans natural life.

So we have these things, All parts of ONE BODY....Created BY God, from DUST.
and need a LIFE source to being this
BODY into a living state.

God BREATHES LIFE from His breath INTO the nostrils of a body.
Now another bodily function (lungs) begins operation, bringing the man natural body, INTO a Living state.

And the continuing of a mans LIVING state is possible, because God created mans habitat, Earth, WITH air required for a mans lungs TO operate.

Immediately after God breaths the breath of Life (His Life from Him) into a man...a man becomes ...A Living.....soul.

This IS KEY. What is a soul, and where did IT come from?

Scripture tells us God MADE souls....
And here are two different terms taught in Scripture....God "creates" and God "makes'.

Scripture tells us the soul thinks, grieves, feels, etc....

This indicates the soul is EMOTIONS.
And we are told, ALL souls belong TO GOD.

Recap -
The entire body, and it's parts are created.
Life from Gods breath, brings the body into a living condition.
The first time a SOUL is mentioned, is immediately after God blows life into a mans body.
The soul is a Living Spiritually MADE thing, that belongs to God, is given a man, and the man thereafter, is able to experience EMOTIONS.

The soul is not the mind. The mind is part of the natural man. The soul is living. The mans body is subject to death.

The mans natural life is HIS BLOOD.
When the mans natural life (blood) stops flowing, the natural body dies.

And the SOUL ? That is living, belongs to God, has all the thoughts of your emotions?
Still LIVING, and departs the dead body.

All body's go to a grave, tomb, lay in field, whatever....they stink, rot, decompose and become dust of the earth.

All souls belong to God, AND are called BY your same name, as your body.

God decides where living souls shall go. He has prepared TWO Places for living souls.
For the living soul that IS WITH HIM,
...it goes to be WITH HIM.
For the living soul that IS AGAINST HIM,
...it goes to a Place where it can BE WITHOUT HIM.

And the natural spirit of man?
IN his natural heart?

THAT is the precise spirit, that "IF" it believes in God and His Word, Christ Jesus;

God shall SPIRITUALLY give a man a NEW Heart.

God shall SPIRITUALLY RESTORE the mans SOUL, that has been emotionally subjected TO the mans CORRUPT BODY.

God shall CHANGE the mans "natural spirt, it's NATURAL truth", TO believing Gods SPIRITUAL TRUTH.

God accomplishes this BY "HIS SEED".
God PLANTS HIS SEED, in the mans NEW HEART.
Gods own Holy Spirit of HIS TRUTH dwells within the mans NEW HEART.

It is Gods own TRUTH, that is then fed to His Seed, that is planted, birthed, and growing.
The growth is a Spiritual growth IN continually receiving Gods TRUTH.

And a man WHO, does not receive Gods Seed?
His natural spirit, (truth), dies with his natural body.

THE whole big picture IS God is Spirit, man is bodily natural, with a soul from God, that bring the body into a living state.

Every man...believer or unbeliever....has a body, and a living soul (life) from God.
Every man...believer or unbelievers...has a body subject to DIE.

Men ...
CAN be forgiven for NOT having been naturally born believing, for corrupting their soul, for not believing in their natural spirit..

Men
CAN be forgiven BY God.
CAN have their body become spiritualy dead.
CAN have their soul restored.
CAN have their spirit born of Gods Seed.
CAN have the Holy Spirit of Truth feeding them.
CAN TRAIN their OWN carnal MIND, to be subject TO their NEW spirit.

ONCE that is accomplished...it is accomplished FOREVER.

You express you can exercise your freewill to UNDO your choice of Belief.

I ask you HOW can you do that?

WHAT YOU MADE your FREEWILL CHOICE WITH...NO LONGER EXISTS.

How can a natural heart....that made the freewill choice...unmake a choice...THAT natural heart no longer exists.

How does something that no longer exist MAKE A CHOICE about ANYTHING?

God Bless,
Taken

Taken, your posts are too long and leave me with too much to handle.
I wish you'd cut them down in size.
The way you understand the heart is not right.
The heart does NOT THINK.
It has already been determined by minds better than ours how we are made up.
Some believe in the dichotomy of man: Body and Soul. The spirit resides in the soul. This is problematic for me but could be accepted.

Some believe in the trichotomy of man. This is far easier to understand and to explain. I believe in this.

Any other explanation is of your own doing and understanding. You can accept and understand anything the way you want to, but it will not be accepted by mainline Christianity. We can't make up our own rules.

You've written too much. If you could cut it down, I'd be happy to discuss things with you...this is how I get new insight that others might have. But you post just too much....

 

[APAK]

In your second paragraph you're talking about eternal security.
As you must know by now, I believe in free will. Just as we've become connected to God through the awakened spirit within us, we can also walk away from God, to put it your way. And I do agree with how you described it...we literally must walk away from God to become lost again.

I don't know what the soulish will is. You must surely mean our will. Or maybe you mean the flesh which is opposed to the spirit.

If you want to say we are a soul, I could live with that. Although I see it as limiting.
We are a soul, that's what let's us be us, each one of us is different in some way.
But wouldn't you say we also ARE a body; we also ARE a spirit? I don't think I could separate any of the three . We are all three.

I also agree basically with the idea of the circle maybe being our entire self.
We struggle for the spirit to win...it's a life.long struggle; although it should become less and less of a struggle.

The way you describe the soul and spiritis a bit confusing.
How it's normally explained is that our spirit affects our soul.

If we are not born again, our mind, emotions and will are programmed in a certain direction --- mostly away from God.

Once we become born again our spirit, or God consciousness, changes our mind, emotions and our will, in a way that is pleasing to God and desires to follow Him.
For instance, scripture tells us to renew our mind.
Romans 12:2
And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

It shows us how God would want us to control our emotions:
Proverbs 16:32
He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, And he who rules his spirit, than he who captures a city.

It shows us how we should use our will for service to God.
Mark 8:34
34And He summoned the crowd with His disciples, and said to them, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me.

Yes, one of two issues I even have with myself as I pointed out to Taken in

post #2205, is t​

hat I believe we do have a Spirit will once we are born again. And it resides in the spirit part, right side of your circle. It is ran by the spirit of Christ that always wants to do the will of God. And yes our soulish will/mind in your left part of the circle must turn to God/renew our minds, to allow the will of God to be done. We of course can ignore this call anytime. That is why I called you a carnal believer at one point, because I thought you were overly biased toward your soulish will most of the time, and faith was not growing.....Romans 12:2 as you point out is very appropriate to what I've just said.

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Taken]

I believe, we ARE a man, that IS US..DUST.
I believe, our FORMATION, IS filled with thousands of things, and functions, and applies to every Created and Formed man.

And HAVE a soul. It is called ours, It is called us, It is called by our Name, It is mingles and knows the thoughts of our NATRUAL mind, of our NATRUAL spirit. It is influenced BY our Natural minds, our natural spirit, and at times may influence our Natural minds, our natural spirit, via IT"S emotion capabilities.

However it was still made by, and belongs to, and has Gods Life in it.

I believe the soul is the outer wheelhouse of the conscious will, mind, thoughts, feelings, emotions and not sure on the sub-conscious.

I believe as I said, and we may be making similar connections...however I see the body and soul completely different things...even though they are co-mingled.

We are a spirit as well....we have the sense intuition, and communication with God if our spirit is regenerated.

I do not believe we ARE spirit, but rather HAVE a spriit. First natural, and for some become a supernatural thing, we there after, HAVE a supernatural thing, as part of our essence.

I do not believe we ARE a spirit or BECOME a spirit.

God IS Spirit. He created spirit beings, ie celestials. We are not celestials. We do not become celestials. We become LIKE them, but NOT them.

We do not become God.
We do not become angels.
We become LIKE them, having natural parts of us, MADE to be LIKE them. In their LIKENESS, without being them.

Now there are 2 sticky parts I have:

When the spirit is not 'dead' and can relate to God, do we have the will/mind of Christ in our spirit, and if so, it should be in our spirit. I think so.
WE really then have two wills...

"DEAD" has two meanings.
Naturally, carnal death relates to something NATRUAL, Physical, seen or unseen.

"DEAD" also has a Spiritual meaning.
Which is simply any SEPARATION from God, Be the thing PHYSICAL or SPIRIT.

THUS the "thing"...a Physical Body, or a Spirit angel...can be still living AND separated FROM God...which is DEAD to God.

The BODY and SPIRIT of a natural man IS natural....
The SOUL of a natural man IS a gift from God.
Nothing says the SOUL is Spriitual...but the gift giving IS spiritual and the Life IN the gift is Spiritual and belongs to God, as does the gift (soul) itself, belong to God.

God gives MANY gifts to mankind...believers and unbelievers. Believers receive additional gifts From God, that unbelievers DO NOT receive.

(And BTW...God also allows Hardships to befall Both believers and unbelievers...but for different reasons/purposes).

God is HOLY, and can not Become "tainted" by SIN. Thus since man is born in SIN, separated from God....there is a bit of a dilemma in how a HOLY GOD, communicates with an UNHOLY man.

The communication between God and an unholy man is always, with a barrier, a shield, a cover, a veil, Between God and the man, when communication between God and an unholy man occurs.

The time, God considers LISTENING TO, Hearing an UNHOLY man...IS WHEN the man, is FOCUSED on God to BELIEVE IN HIM.

And thus you SEE, a man CALLING ON the Lords Name....to make a confession of Belief.
The Belief of the man is Established, by the man Calling on the Lord.

Who calls on what they do not believe exists?

There are also men, who do not believe IN God, but have seen His Works, and believed IN the Works they Saw, and Trust it was God who effected the Works....
They have not called on the Lord, but know men who HAVE, and HAVE submitted their life to God....
Simply it is a matter of a man believing in Gods works, but not having committed to Believing IN Him.....
We can find, such men, soliciting a man WHO DOES believe IN God, for such man TO solicite GOD, on the "uncommited" mans behalf. And ask FAVOR be given them personally.....and by and through such measure, God often has granted the uncommitted man favor of God...
Because the man Believed in God?
No, because the man Believed in Gods Works, and attributed those Works, to being OF God.

A "spirit" not dead, relate to God?
Not always. If is is separated FROM God, it can not relate to...otherwise, communicate with. It can know things ABOUT God, even understanding some things....but that does not mean it can have a communication realationship WITH God.

And again, the "spirit" of man is not the body, is not the soul. It is something entirely different, and subject to different things....even though it is co-mingled with the body and soul.

And the second part is, the location of the real 'I' ..

The natural spirit of man is simply a mans "natural" truth. It is a separate thing from the body, and the soul. However it is co-mingled with the mind of the the body and the soul.

As the man forms his own opinions, and choices, of what is his absolute truth...
That is his natrual spirit.
A mans natural spirit is in his Heart.
Otherwise, the mans natura spirit is HIS natural truth in his hearts thoughts.

The mind knows the spirits truth, but yet the mind can conceive lies and trickery and deception; while the spriit of man knows the truth of the deceptions and lies.

A who confesses His belief TO the Lord OF the Lord....does so with HIS natural spirit, ie His natural truth....(not his mind).

Such a true confession from a mans natural spirit in his natural heart...IS precisely the confession the Lord accepts from the man.

And it is there after the Lord...
Gives the man a new heart..
...
Gives the man a new spirit..birthed FROM Gods Seed.
Gives the man Gods Spirit in the mans new heart, in the mans new spriit...
And this new spirit of man, HAS Gods Spiritual Truth.

Ezekiel 18:31
Ezekiel 36:26
John 14:17
John 15:26
John 16:13

These apply to a man who has given his life to the Lord Jesus, via a confession, from his spirit in his heart.

Other things applied to a man, with belief in God, "under the law"...
Where God wrote His laws, In their hearts, and minds.

Jeremiah 31:33
Hebrews 8:10

Saying...God deals with each individual...
Body, soul, spirit, mind.

A man under the law...and a man not under the law.

I get the impression in scripture that the heart is ALWAYS FILLED with either ..

The natural mind in the brain.
The natural spirit in the heart.
The living soul, in a man...

All have thoughts that originate from each thing...mind, spirit, soul....but yet are all aware of the thoughts of each....and may even be in agreement with some thoughts, and in disagreement with some thoughts.

It is a complex subject, Because All things DO NOT apply the same to ALL men.

When men do not know or comprehend the differences, then speak in a general expression...it does not reveal WHERE they specifically stand. Still natural, a Jew subject to the law, a Jew submitted to Christ, a Gentile with a conversion, a Gentile without a Conversion....and the lack of understanding, is widely revealed, when men claim to be Converted Gentiles....but subject to Jewish Laws.

 

[Taken]

APAK

I also believe that even someone of little faith and they want to reject the spirit of Christ from their soulish mind, they will not succeed. It is there for good once we accept the gift of life...

FAITH is another misunderstood concept.
Everything has TWO understanding...Carnal and Spiritual.

Any carnal minded man can have faith. You may have faith in your wife that she will prepare you supper tonite.

However Spiritual Faith, is a GIFT from God.
Men are rather limited weak peons in the big scheme of things.

Every time a man....puts forth the effort...to HEAR or READ the Word of God...THAT does not make the man Saved....but it does gain favor with God. It gains favor with God...precisely because it was the mans effort to decide to Hear and Read.....Gods Word.

God blesses such a man WITH a gift from God. That gift is called FAITH. Every time a man is Hearing or Reading the Word of God, whether or not the man has decided to BELIEVE what he is hearing or reading, HE IS by default BEING ENLIGHTEND with Gods Word...

Does that mean the man IS Saved? No.
Does that mean God gives the man a FULL measure of FAITH-FULLNES? No.

It does mean that man is doing something Gods finds favorable.
It does mean IF the man "continues" hearing and reading....God will gift that man with more measures of his gift of Faith.

It is by and through this Continued Process, that a man GAINS enough Faith, to BE prepared, to submit his life to the Lord and become converted. And forever receive FULL FAITH-FULL-Ness...to the Lord....and BE KEPT in FULL Faith-full-ness TO the Lord ONLY, BY the subsequently received indwelling Power of God.

AT ANY TIME....BEFORE "conversion"...a man can STOP hearing, reading, being enlightened, and thus STOPS receiving Faith increases.

Also a man can do ^^^ THAT, AND STOP, believing what he has heard and read....this is a man that is called.....Fallen from Faith.

A Converted man CAN NOT fall from faith...
However a man NOT converted, having had been receiving enlightment, receiving faith, believing....then stops believing...CAN fall from Faith. His Salvation is in jeopardy, that he will not receive it.....less he again begins hearing, learning, BELIEVING, and receiving faith from God...and becomes converted.

Everyone is an individual. Some delve in to being enlightened, beliieve, are gifted with faith, their faith highly increased because they DELVE in ....

While others are content with hearing, once a week, once a month, once a year....so will their receiving of faith from God, be just as lax. Their journey to receiving a conversion and salvation and quickened spirit...will obviously be a long drawn out journey.

Hearing, Reading....The WORD of God IS the precise Catalyst that sets everything in motion....to what a natural man IS, to what a natural man, MAY become.

And everything OF a natural man, (body, soul, spirit, mind) becomes effected during his journey By what he freely Chooses to do, not do, start, quit, start again, stick with it, or completely reject it......and God is in the mix during a mans journey...either blessing the man, gifting the man..or rejecting the man who rejects Him.

God Bless,
Taken

 

[JesusIsFaithful]

• Those that believe "once saved always saved" is true (16.67%)
  
  
• Those that believe "once saved always saved" is a false docterine. (50%)
  
  
• Not sure. (33.33%)

OSAS is true because of John 6:39, but God is coming to judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17 ) at the pre great tribulation rapture event and so those that get excommunicated from the Lord to become castaways, the Lord is faithful in keeping the souls of His saints that get left behind to resurrect them again after the great tribulation ( 1 Peter 4:17-19 ) as vessels unto dishonor in His House which is why the call is given out to all believers and churches and even former believers to go before that throne of grace for discernment and repentance so they can be received as vessels unto honor in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 & 2 Timothy 2:10-14 ).

Why is this so? Because the vessels unto dishonor in His House will suffer loss over what they have built on that foundation that denies Him, but the foundation remains; ( 1 Corinthians 3:10-17 ) & that seal of adoption is not going anywhere ( Ephesians 4:30 )

That is why God is wiping the tears from the eyes of the saints coming out of the great tribulation because they were weeping and gnashing their teeth over the loss of their first inheritance of being received as a vessel unto honor in His House to attend the Marriage Supper with the King in Heaven. It will take a miracle from God to get them over their loss i.e. their "damnation" in order to know that they are His and they will hear His voice as the King of kings in serving Him in seeking His glory in raising up the generations coming out of the millennium reign of Christ's.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes I believe the whole body is as you described...brains, physical sensors etc....

I believe we are a soul due to the same support you provided, a living breathing being....as do other animals.

I believe the soul is the outer wheelhouse of the conscious will, mind, thoughts, feelings, emotions and not sure on the sub-conscious.

We are a spirit as well....we have the sense intuition, and communication with God if our spirit is regenerated.

Now there are 2 sticky parts I have:

When the spirit is not 'dead' and can relate to God, do we have the will/mind of Christ in our spirit, and if so, it should be in our spirit. I think so.
WE really then have two wills...

And the second part is, the location of the real 'I' in the heart, as being separate from the soul and spirit..I think, the 'I' would be in the spirit (of a regenerated person) if we did not have to deal with the corrupt soul mind...???

I get the impression in scripture that the heart is ALWAYS FILLED with either the spirit of Christ or the thoughts of the soul. It like a vehicle, the heart is the type of fuel we fill up with.....determines whether we are growing in faith or staying as a carnal believer. I believe we cannot always be filled with Christ all the time because of the struggle with the soulish mind and its will.

I also believe that even someone of little faith and they want to reject the spirit of Christ from their soulish mind, they will not succeed. It is there for good once we accept the gift of life...

Your thoughts..

We have the spirit and the soul.
We often refer to this as the flesh and the spirit.
The flesh being the soul and the spirit being the spirit (of God awakened in us).

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes, one of two issues I even have with myself as I pointed out to Taken in

post #2205, is t​

hat I believe we do have a Spirit will once we are born again. And it resides in the spirit part, right side of your circle. It is ran by the spirit of Christ that always wants to do the will of God. And yes our soulish will/mind in your left part of the circle must turn to God/renew our minds, to allow the will of God to be done. We of course can ignore this call anytime. That is why I called you a carnal believer at one point, because I thought you were overly biased toward your soulish will most of the time, and faith was not growing.....Romans 12:2 as you point out is very appropriate to what I've just said.

Bless you,

APAK

We only have one will.
It resides in the soul and is definitely affected by our spirit once we are born again.
I believe I explained this better to taken.

You called me a carnal Christian?
What's that?

 

[APAK]

We only have one will.
It resides in the soul and is definitely affected by our spirit once we are born again.
I believe I explained this better to taken.

You called me a carnal Christian?
What's that?

There's nothing offense here GodsGrace. Just what I'm saying for the third time at least...it is when we lean on our soul will rather than yielding it over to what I call the will within our spirit to do God's service. Look, I have been such a carnal believer in the past , although not really as much today....:)

Bless you,

APAK

 

[APAK]

APEK

FAITH is another misunderstood concept.
Everything has TWO understanding...Carnal and Spiritual.

Any carnal minded man can have faith. You may have faith in your wife that she will prepare you supper tonite.

However Spiritual Faith, is a GIFT from God.
Men are rather limited weak peons in the big scheme of things.

Every time a man....puts forth the effort...to HEAR or READ the Word of God...THAT does not make the man Saved....but it does gain favor with God. It gains favor with God...precisely because it was the mans effort to decide to Hear and Read.....Gods Word.

God blesses such a man WITH a gift from God. That gift is called FAITH. Every time a man is Hearing or Reading the Word of God, whether or not the man has decided to BELIEVE what he is hearing or reading, HE IS by default BEING ENLIGHTEND with Gods Word...

Does that mean the man IS Saved? No.
Does that mean God gives the man a FULL measure of FAITH-FULLNES? No.

It does mean that man is doing something Gods finds favorable.
It does mean IF the man "continues" hearing and reading....God will gift that man with more measures of his gift of Faith.

It is by and through this Continued Process, that a man GAINS enough Faith, to BE prepared, to submit his life to the Lord and become converted. And forever receive FULL FAITH-FULL-Ness...to the Lord....and BE KEPT in FULL Faith-full-ness TO the Lord ONLY, BY the subsequently received indwelling Power of God.

AT ANY TIME....BEFORE "conversion"...a man can STOP hearing, reading, being enlightened, and thus STOPS receiving Faith increases.

Also a man can do ^^^ THAT, AND STOP, believing what he has heard and read....this is a man that is called.....Fallen from Faith.

A Converted man CAN NOT fall from faith...
However a man NOT converted, having had been receiving enlightment, receiving faith, believing....then stops believing...CAN fall from Faith. His Salvation is in jeopardy, that he will not receive it.....less he again begins hearing, learning, BELIEVING, and receiving faith from God...and becomes converted.

Everyone is an individual. Some delve in to being enlightened, beliieve, are gifted with faith, their faith highly increased because they DELVE in ....

While others are content with hearing, once a week, once a month, once a year....so will their receiving of faith from God, be just as lax. Their journey to receiving a conversion and salvation and quickened spirit...will obviously be a long drawn out journey.

Hearing, Reading....The WORD of God IS the precise Catalyst that sets everything in motion....to what a natural man IS, to what a natural man, MAY become.

And everything OF a natural man, (body, soul, spirit, mind) becomes effected during his journey By what he freely Chooses to do, not do, start, quit, start again, stick with it, or completely reject it......and God is in the mix during a mans journey...either blessing the man, gifting the man..or rejecting the man who rejects Him.

God Bless,
Taken

Yes I agree there are two types of faith, one carnal and one spiritual. No question about it, as you already gave an example of each. And these two types of faith have to different masters...

 

[GodsGrace]

There's nothing offense here GodsGrace. Just what I'm saying for the third time at least...it is when we lean on our soul will rather than yielding it over to what I call the will within our spirit to do God's service. Look, I have been such a carnal believer in the past , although not really as much today....:)

Bless you,

APAK

But then what's the difference between a carnal Christian and sinning?
When we sin, we're ignoring the effect of our spirit on our will (which is in the soul).

 

[APAK]

But then what's the difference between a carnal Christian and sinning?
When we sin, we're ignoring the effect of our spirit on our will (which is in the soul).

In the eyes of the world and other people I can sin through my soul and its will. It is of the law. Since I am born again I do not sin anymore as I'm NOT under the law anymore.