Once Saved....always Saved - Results of Questionnaire.

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GodsGrace

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How did you conclude the soul IS the mind?
Man is composed of
body
soul
spirit

which of these would YOU say the mind is?
The brain is physical, but the mind is the soul. I cannot be seen but we know we have a soul. In the O.T. the heart was at times called the spirit and the soul was at times called the heart. We cannot determine this by the O.T. but how theologians have concluded the make-up of man.

Circle%20Spirit,%20Soul%20and%20Body.jpg




How would you describe a mans "spirit", and where is "that spirit" ?
The above is what I've been taught by two different churches.
Where is the soul?
Where is the spirit?
It's the unseen part of us that makes us what we are. We all have the same body but we each have a different soul. Those that know God also have the spirit awakened to the knowledge of God.
The spirit is our "God consciousness".



Which spirit? The "natural spirit of man" or the "born again spirit of man" ?
When speaking biblically, we always mean the born again spirit of man.

And which spirit of man...CAN move away from God....the "natural spirit of man" or the "born again spirit of man"? And Why?
As I said, the natural spirit of man just has to do with how he feels, biblically we always mean the born again spirit, the spirit that connects to God.
So when we move away from God we're speaking of the born again spirit.
If we move AWAY from God, we are no longer born again. We're in the same state we were before we met God. We cannot have His spirit if we don't want Him.

Just want you take to see first of all if we are on the same page, of what's what.

True. However, understanding what that means, is paramount.

What does that means to you?
Well Taken, losing our salvation can only mean one thing...
If we die in that state, we are NOT going to be with God since we are not saved.

That you can receive it then Lose it?
Or that you can Lose it because you never received it?

Before delving in to the mind changing...
Let's see where we stand in agreement or not of what the mind is.

Then can address your scriptures and comment.

God Bless,
Taken
How can you possibly be asking me this with the scripture I gave you?
You can receive it and then lose it.
Jesus and Paul said this in the verses I posted. I only repeat.
They believed in free will, just as I do.
I do not believe in eternal security because the bible does not teach this.
 

APAK

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@GodsGrace ...

Yes, it is interesting and not a bad model as the basis of discussion. I would just want to modify it a bit…

The spirit of people if born-again is dominated by the spirit of Christ and connected to us via God’s spirit or consciousness. It has a mind and will that are present whether we like it or not. It will not go away whether we say we want to walk away from it or not. It is the ‘seal’ of salvation. We really cannot walk away from it. We are just choosing to listen to our soulish will, that’s all that is occurring when we say we walk away from it.

I would say the circle? mark is the true “I” the deepest part of us, the heart. It gets filled with either the mind of the soul or the mind or will of the new spirit. It is a binary fill, either the soul’s will or the spirit’s will occupied it at any time. It is a lifelong struggle although our new spirit wins over it more as were grow in faith. As we grow in faith, the center circle is filled more and more by the spirit will and mind of Christ. You cannot remove the spirit of Christ. You cannot die without salvation once you have it even if your last state of 'I' is filled with the will of the soul.

Also, we don’t have a soul, we are a soul. We are also a spirit, whether it is dead or alive in Christ.

APAK
 

aspen

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This conversation is interesting because I am realizing that when I joined the Catholic Church, it was really a mental shift from freewill to determinism. It was a coming home for me and a place for me to start exercising faith - accepting what is instead of pretending that I am in control of circumstances. I am talking about my own process not about Catholicism. Life has a lot to teach if you sit still longer enough to pay attention. I no longer worry about things I can’t control - heaven/hell is not up to me, it is up to God. The only thing I really can control is how to love others
 

aspen

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1 John 2:24 is really about remaining within the body of Christ and not following Gnostics who were leading followers of Christ away from the church
 

GodsGrace

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@GodsGrace ...

Yes, it is interesting and not a bad model as the basis of discussion. I would just want to modify it a bit…

The spirit of people if born-again is dominated by the spirit of Christ and connected to us via God’s spirit or consciousness. It has a mind and will that are present whether we like it or not. It will not go away whether we say we want to walk away from it or not. It is the ‘seal’ of salvation. We really cannot walk away from it. We are just choosing to listen to our soulish will, that’s all that is occurring when we say we walk away from it.

I would say the circle? mark is the true “I” the deepest part of us, the heart. It gets filled with either the mind of the soul or the mind or will of the new spirit. It is a binary fill, either the soul’s will or the spirit’s will occupied it at any time. It is a lifelong struggle although our new spirit wins over it more as were grow in faith. As we grow in faith, the center circle is filled more and more by the spirit will and mind of Christ. You cannot remove the spirit of Christ. You cannot die without salvation once you have it even if your last state of 'I' is filled with the will of the soul.

Also, we don’t have a soul, we are a soul. We are also a spirit, whether it is dead or alive in Christ.

APAK
Past midnight.
Tomorrow.
Good night.
 

GodsGrace

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1 John 2:24 is really about remaining within the body of Christ and not following Gnostics who were leading followers of Christ away from the church
Exactly what it's about.
As long as we're in the body of Christ, we're saved, if we leave the body how could we possibly be saved?
The sealing of the holy Spirit is true for as long as we desire it.
 

GodsGrace

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This conversation is interesting because I am realizing that when I joined the Catholic Church, it was really a mental shift from freewill to determinism. It was a coming home for me and a place for me to start exercising faith - accepting what is instead of pretending that I am in control of circumstances. I am talking about my own process not about Catholicism. Life has a lot to teach if you sit still longer enough to pay attention. I no longer worry about things I can’t control - heaven/hell is not up to me, it is up to God. The only thing I really can control is how to love others
Are you saying the Catholic Church is deterministic??
The Catholic Church believes in free will.
 

Taken

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Man is composed of
body
soul
spirit

which of these would YOU say the mind is?
The brain is physical, but the mind is the soul. I cannot be seen but we know we have a soul. In the O.T. the heart was at times called the spirit and the soul was at times called the heart. We cannot determine this by the O.T. but how theologians have concluded the make-up of man.

Circle%20Spirit,%20Soul%20and%20Body.jpg





The above is what I've been taught by two different churches.
Where is the soul?
Where is the spirit?
It's the unseen part of us that makes us what we are. We all have the same body but we each have a different soul. Those that know God also have the spirit awakened to the knowledge of God.
The spirit is our "God consciousness".




When speaking biblically, we always mean the born again spirit of man.


As I said, the natural spirit of man just has to do with how he feels, biblically we always mean the born again spirit, the spirit that connects to God.
So when we move away from God we're speaking of the born again spirit.
If we move AWAY from God, we are no longer born again. We're in the same state we were before we met God. We cannot have His spirit if we don't want Him.


Well Taken, losing our salvation can only mean one thing...
If we die in that state, we are NOT going to be with God since we are not saved.


I have a different understanding.

1) the body of man is "created"...by God, from dust.
2) that body has all the physical components to function naturally.
3) one of the components is a BRAIN, that is used to think, reason, learn, logically weigh ideas, imagine, decides, store memory, etc.
4) the action of the BRAIN, as just described, IS what the MIND does.
5) the Brain also has other functions, via nerve connections, which signal the body parts to move, in particular ways, (walk, sit, turn your head, close your eyes, etc.)
6) Thus saying, the Brain is part of the natural body...and the Mind is part of the Brain with cognitive abilities.

1) the heart is also part of the natural body, so created.
2 ) the heart has within it, thoughts as well, as the BRAIN has thought, call the Mind.
3) the thoughts in the heart are in a mans spirit.
4) the thoughts in a mans spirit, are simply his truth.
5) a Mind can have both TRUE thoughts and LIE thoughts.
6) a spirit IS a mans TRUE thought.

So recapping...
The body is "created" by God, from dust.
The body has numerous parts.
The body can do nothing with out life in it.
...Once life is introduced into the body..

The Body has it's OWN "NATURAL" LIFE.
A Brain, with cognitive skills, called the MIND.
A Heart, with a spirit, called mans Truth.
A Blood, that is a mans natural life.

So we have these things, All parts of ONE BODY....Created BY God, from DUST.
and need a LIFE source to being this
BODY into a living state.

God BREATHES LIFE from His breath INTO the nostrils of a body.
Now another bodily function (lungs) begins operation, bringing the man natural body, INTO a Living state.

And the continuing of a mans LIVING state is possible, because God created mans habitat, Earth, WITH air required for a mans lungs TO operate.

Immediately after God breaths the breath of Life (His Life from Him) into a man...a man becomes ...A Living.....soul.

This IS KEY. What is a soul, and where did IT come from?

Scripture tells us God MADE souls....
And here are two different terms taught in Scripture....God "creates" and God "makes'.

Scripture tells us the soul thinks, grieves, feels, etc....

This indicates the soul is EMOTIONS.
And we are told, ALL souls belong TO GOD.

Recap -
The entire body, and it's parts are created.
Life from Gods breath, brings the body into a living condition.
The first time a SOUL is mentioned, is immediately after God blows life into a mans body.
The soul is a Living Spiritually MADE thing, that belongs to God, is given a man, and the man thereafter, is able to experience EMOTIONS.

The soul is not the mind. The mind is part of the natural man. The soul is living. The mans body is subject to death.

The mans natural life is HIS BLOOD.
When the mans natural life (blood) stops flowing, the natural body dies.

And the SOUL ? That is living, belongs to God, has all the thoughts of your emotions?
Still LIVING, and departs the dead body.

All body's go to a grave, tomb, lay in field, whatever....they stink, rot, decompose and become dust of the earth.

All souls belong to God, AND are called BY your same name, as your body.

God decides where living souls shall go. He has prepared TWO Places for living souls.
For the living soul that IS WITH HIM,
...it goes to be WITH HIM.
For the living soul that IS AGAINST HIM,
...it goes to a Place where it can BE WITHOUT HIM.

And the natural spirit of man?
IN his natural heart?

THAT is the precise spirit, that "IF" it believes in God and His Word, Christ Jesus;

God shall SPIRITUALLY give a man a NEW Heart.

God shall SPIRITUALLY RESTORE the mans SOUL, that has been emotionally subjected TO the mans CORRUPT BODY.

God shall CHANGE the mans "natural spirt, it's NATURAL truth", TO believing Gods SPIRITUAL TRUTH.

God accomplishes this BY "HIS SEED".
God PLANTS HIS SEED, in the mans NEW HEART.
Gods own Holy Spirit of HIS TRUTH dwells within the mans NEW HEART.

It is Gods own TRUTH, that is then fed to His Seed, that is planted, birthed, and growing.
The growth is a Spiritual growth IN continually receiving Gods TRUTH.

And a man WHO, does not receive Gods Seed?
His natural spirit, (truth), dies with his natural body.

THE whole big picture IS God is Spirit, man is bodily natural, with a soul from God, that bring the body into a living state.

Every man...believer or unbeliever....has a body, and a living soul (life) from God.
Every man...believer or unbelievers...has a body subject to DIE.

Men ...
CAN be forgiven for NOT having been naturally born believing, for corrupting their soul, for not believing in their natural spirit..

Men
CAN be forgiven BY God.
CAN have their body become spiritualy dead.
CAN have their soul restored.
CAN have their spirit born of Gods Seed.
CAN have the Holy Spirit of Truth feeding them.
CAN TRAIN their OWN carnal MIND, to be subject TO their NEW spirit.

ONCE that is accomplished...it is accomplished FOREVER.

You express you can exercise your freewill to UNDO your choice of Belief.

I ask you HOW can you do that?

WHAT YOU MADE your FREEWILL CHOICE WITH...NO LONGER EXISTS.

How can a natural heart....that made the freewill choice...unmake a choice...THAT natural heart no longer exists.

How does something that no longer exist MAKE A CHOICE about ANYTHING?

God Bless,
Taken
 

Taken

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Regarding the changing of our mind...
Mathew 13:20-21
Seed was sown on the rocky places. The person heard the word with JOY.
But Jesus said it was only TEMPORARY. When affliction came, the person turned away --- he turned, he changed his mind and abandoned God.

2 Peter 2:20-21
Someone has ESCAPED the defilements of the world by the KNOWLEDGE (knowing intimately) of our Lord and Savior Jesus.
But then they are AGAIN entangled in the defilements of the world and are OVERCOME.

So in each case they were saved, and then became unsaved.

You give scripture about a mans MINDS thoughts.

You give scripture about a man having KNOWLEDGE.

How did you conclude "THEY" were "SAVED"?

Where does scripture say, confess your belief with your MIND?

Where does scripture say, if you have Knowledge, you are SAVED?

God Bless,
Taken
 

aspen

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Exactly what it's about.
As long as we're in the body of Christ, we're saved, if we leave the body how could we possibly be saved?
The sealing of the holy Spirit is true for as long as we desire it.

I am glad you agree, but it really doesn’t bode well for the Reformers
 

aspen

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Are you saying the Catholic Church is deterministic??
The Catholic Church believes in free will.

I specifically stated in my post that I was speaking about my spiritual experience, not the Catholic Church so why would you ask me about the Catholic Church?
 

Taken

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I am glad you agree, but it really doesn’t bode well for the Reformers

GodsGrace ~ aspen

Not sure what a Reformers is...

But..where are the Scriptural examples of a man having "Received" the gift of Salvation and received Gods Seed, and received a Quickened spirit, and then GAVE those gifts BACK TO GOD?

God Bless,
Takes
 

aspen

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GodsGrace ~ aspen

Not sure what a Reformers is...

But..where are the Scriptural examples of a man having "Received" the gift of Salvation and received Gods Seed, and received a Quickened spirit, and then GAVE those gifts BACK TO GOD?

God Bless,
Takes

Are you intersted in learning about Church history?
 

aspen

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Was there something that indicated I don't already know, that you offer learning?

Indeed

You do not know who the Reformers were. You do not know that they taught sola scriptura, which you accept as truth.
 

Taken

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Indeed

You do not know who the Reformers were. You do not know that they taught sola scriptura, which you accept as truth.

And how do YOU define sola scriptura?
And what was "pre-sola scriptura" truth called?
 

aspen

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And how do YOU define sola scriptura?
And what was "pre-sola scriptura" truth called?

I use the definition of Luther when I talk about sola scriptura.

Before and after sola scriptura, Many Christians view the Bible and Tradition as final authority.