Love

[VictoryinJesus]

Another thread on Abel's sacrifice and why it was acceptable to God and Cain's was rejected has raised some serious questions. Rather than bombard another posters thread and derail it; I'm choosing to start a separate one.

Clearly Eve sinned first by the temptation of Satan. Either Adam wasn't too bright or other motives drove Him to join in His wife's sin. Is it safe to suspect Adam joined His wife in her sin...out of love?

Two children are born. Jealousy causes one to murder the other. All over Abel's sacrifice being acceptable to God. Where Cain's was not. Why? Possibly because Abel s offering was also...love.

Two brothers:
One a scarlet thread.
One a breach, a rupture.
One, the one with the scarlet thread, heals the other.


Genesis 38:28-30
[28] And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first. [29] And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez. [30] And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.

If Abel paid for his enemy (his own brother, his murderer) then it would be an act of love. What pleased God about Abels sacrifice was that it prophesied of the Son ...the greatest act of love demonstrated to all mankind. The guiltless Lamb slain for the guilty. An innocent (God Himself) for the sinner. A brother for a brother.

The only ones that have a problem with this are the ones that would love nothing more than a brother to pay what is owed.

There are only two:

You are either "in Adam."
Or you are "in Christ."
Did Christ come for Adam. Or will God punish and condemn the first man ever created...to hell? A man that walked and spoke to God and sacrificed life by joining His wife in death? A man made subject to vanity by God himself?


Romans 8:20-21
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


I was once in Adam. I was once in Sin. My brother Jesus Christ , the scarlet thread, healed me. Abel's sacrifice was love.

 

[Stranger]

Another thread on Abel's sacrifice and why it was acceptable to God and Cain's was rejected has raised some serious questions. Rather than bombard another posters thread and derail it; I'm choosing to start a separate one.

Clearly Eve sinned first by the temptation of Satan. Either Adam wasn't too bright or other motives drove Him to join in His wife's sin. Is it safe to suspect Adam joined His wife in her sin...out of love?

Two children are born. Jealousy causes one to murder the other. All over Abel's sacrifice being acceptable to God. Where Cain's was not. Why? Possibly because Abel s offering was also...love.

Two brothers:
One a scarlet thread.
One a breach, a rupture.
One, the one with the scarlet thread, heals the other.


Genesis 38:28-30
[28] And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first. [29] And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez. [30] And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.

If Abel paid for his enemy (his own brother, his murderer) then it would be an act of love. What pleased God about Abels sacrifice was that it prophesied of the Son ...the greatest act of love demonstrated to all mankind. The guiltless Lamb slain for the guilty. An innocent (God Himself) for the sinner. A brother for a brother.

The only ones that have a problem with this are the ones that would love nothing more than a brother to pay what is owed.

There are only two:

You are either "in Adam."
Or you are "in Christ."
Did Christ come for Adam. Or will God punish and condemn the first man ever created...to hell? A man that walked and spoke to God and sacrificed life by joining His wife in death? A man made subject to vanity by God himself?


Romans 8:20-21
[20] For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [21] Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


I was once in Adam. I was once in Sin. My brother Jesus Christ , the scarlet thread, healed me. Abel's sacrifice was love.

Eve was deceived. Adam was not. If Adam was not deceived why did he eat of the tree? (1 Tim. 2:14) He ate because he loved Eve and didn't want to lose her and didn't want her to be in a place where he couldn't reach her. So he went into a fallen state knowing God would get him out. And he knew if God got him out, it would also provide the way to get Eve out.

And that is exactly what Jesus Christ did for you.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Eve was deceived. Adam was not. If Adam was not deceived why did he eat of the tree? (1 Tim. 2:14) He ate because he loved Eve and didn't want to lose her and didn't want her to be in a place where he couldn't reach her. So he went into a fallen state knowing God would get him out. And he knew if God got him out, it would also provide the way to get Eve out.

And that is exactly what Jesus Christ did for you.

Stranger

Agree.

But what about hate of brother?

1 John 3:15-16
[15] Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. [16] Hereby perceive we the love of God , because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

If we hate a brother haven't we committed murder which makes us no different from Cain?

1 John 4:19-21
[19] We love him, because he first loved us. [20] If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? [21] And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Psalm 5:5
[5] The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

But He chose sinners, right? Those in Adam?

1 Corinthians 1:27-28
[27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; [28] And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea , and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

Which is to bring to nought man's glorying in himself in the presence of God. So why such messages of hate spread against brother? Is that not already murder to God? What pours out of a heart? Envy, wrath, vengeance, superiority, jealousy, demands of restitution? That sounds like Cain.


Eve was deceived. Yet: Genesis 3:20-21
[20] And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. [21] Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

 

[aspen]

Adam and Eve were both lead to sin

Eve was deceived. Adam was not. If Adam was not deceived why did he eat of the tree? (1 Tim. 2:14) He ate because he loved Eve and didn't want to lose her and didn't want her to be in a place where he couldn't reach her. So he went into a fallen state knowing God would get him out. And he knew if God got him out, it would also provide the way to get Eve out.

And that is exactly what Jesus Christ did for you.

Stranger

So why was such a noble act on the part of adam, punished?

 

[Stranger]

Agree.

But what about hate of brother?

1 John 3:15-16
[15] Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. [16] Hereby perceive we the love of God , because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

If we hate a brother haven't we committed murder which makes us no different from Cain?

1 John 4:19-21
[19] We love him, because he first loved us. [20] If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? [21] And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Psalm 5:5
[5] The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

But He chose sinners, right? Those in Adam?

1 Corinthians 1:27-28
[27] But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; [28] And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea , and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

Which is to bring to nought man's glorying in himself in the presence of God. So why such messages of hate spread against brother? Is that not already murder to God? What pours out of a heart? Envy, wrath, vengeance, superiority, jealousy, demands of restitution? That sounds like Cain.


Eve was deceived. Yet: Genesis 3:20-21
[20] And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. [21] Unto Adam also and to his wife did the Lord God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

I don't understand your question. It is not said that Abel hated Cain.

After Adam fell, all were sinners born of him. (1 Cor. 1:27-28) describes those of the world as opposed to those of God, though all were sinners due to Adams sin.

Eve was and is the mother of all living. She is the mother of all living in the physical sense. And she is the mother of all living in the spiritual sense because she believed. (Gen. 3:20), (Gen. 4:1)

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Adam and Eve were both lead to sin


So why was such a noble act on the part of adam, punished?

Because it was sin.

Your question reveals much of you. Why was Jesus Christ forced to endure such suffering and payment for sin?

Stranger

 

[Helen]

Good post. :)

Either Adam wasn't too bright or other motives drove Him to join in His wife's sin. Is it safe to suspect Adam joined His wife in her sin...out of love?

Yes, I agree,
We know Adam was "the first Adam" ..Jesus the last Adam.
Adam chose his bride ..to be with her, live with her and die with her..
Jesus chose His bride,...that she can be with Him , and that she would not die.

Yes, good post. Hope your thread here does not get derailed... :)

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I don't understand your question. It is not said that Abel hated Cain.

You are right. Abel never hated Cain. Cain hated Abel. Cain murdered Abel. Abel loved Cain? Yes or no. We assume Abel's blood cried out from the ground for vengeance on His brother.

Genesis 4:9-11
[9] And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? [10] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. [11] And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand;

How many would say "Am I my brother's keeper?"

Abel brought a sacrifice, a foreshadowing of Christ, and God accepted it...why? Was it not a sacrifice of love? Christ brought a sacrifice of love for His brother(the sinner). A paid what was owed. That is what I'm asking?

 

[Stranger]

You are right. Abel never hated Cain. Cain hated Abel. Cain murdered Abel. Abel loved Cain? Yes or no. We assume Abel's blood cried out from the ground for vengeance on His brother. But what is vengeance? Abel brought a sacrifice, a foreshadowing of Christ, and God accepted it...why? Was it not a sacrifice of love? That is what I'm asking?

We are not directly told that Abel loved Cain that I am aware of. But, Scripture is clear that Abel's blood called out to God for vengeance. (Gen. 4:10) So no assumption there.

Vengeance is what God was going to bring upon Cain. Nothing wrong with vengeance when it is from God.

Abel's sacrifice contained blood. The blood was important to God. It showed a life had been given. A life for a life. Substitution. Cains was the work of his hands. That which he was proud of. It contained no blood. Both Cain and Abel offered the sacrifice that depicted who they were.

Yes, we are a blood bought people. We are washed in the blood. Blood is all important in the Christians life because it is important to God.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

We are not directly told that Abel loved Cain that I am aware of. But, Scripture is clear that Abel's blood called out to God for vengeance. (Gen. 4:10) So no assumption there.

Vengeance is what God was going to bring upon Cain. Nothing wrong with vengeance when it is from God.

Abel's sacrifice contained blood. The blood was important to God. It showed a life had been given. A life for a life. Substitution. Cains was the work of his hands. That which he was proud of. It contained no blood. Both Cain and Abel offered the sacrifice that depicted who they were.

Yes, we are a blood bought people. We are washed in the blood. Blood is all important in the Christians life because it is important to God.

Stranger

I was a murderer though. Purchased by my brother that did no sin, yes or no?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Both Cain and Abel offered the sacrifice that depicted who they were

Exactly. Cain is full of vengeance. And full of hate. Saying "am I my brother's keeper" Cain doesn't love anybody but Cain. Cain is blinded by Cain's on good works of his own hands. Which suffers a mighty blow when his good works are rejected by God.

Abel, on the other hand, is love. Abels sacrifice to God would have been for his brother. Not self. Abel's words would not have been "am I my brother's keeper?" Take into consideration: the two commands of love God and the other is like it: love neighbor. The obedience of Abel to God would have been love for his brother, not the absence of it.

Yet you describe Abel as if he is the same as Cain. Same attributes of a murderer with vengeance in his heart.

We are not directly told that Abel loved Cain that I am aware of. But, Scripture is clear that Abel's blood called out to God for vengeance. (Gen. 4:10) So no assumption there.

Genesis 4:9-13
[9] And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? [10] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. [11] And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; [12] When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. [13] And Cain said unto the Lord , My punishment is greater than I can bear.

1 John 2:9-10
[9] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. [10] He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

No, Abel would have brought a sacrifice for his brother and it greatly pleased God which is Spirit. While Cain was self-serving ...

 

[Stranger]

I was a murderer though. Purchased by my brother that did no sin, yes or no?

I don't follow what you are asking? Are you asking about you or Cain?

Stranger

 

[Stranger]

Exactly. Cain is full of vengeance. And full of hate. Saying "am I my brother's keeper" Cain doesn't love anybody but Cain. Cain is blinded by Cain's on good works of his own hands. Which suffers a mighty blow when his good works are rejected by God.

Abel, on the other hand, is love. Abels sacrifice to God would have been for his brother. Not self. Abel's words would not have been "am I my brother's keeper?" Take into consideration: the two commands of love God and the other is like it: love neighbor. The obedience of Abel to God would have been love for his brother, not the absence of it.

Yet you describe Abel as if he is the same as Cain. Same attributes of a murderer with vengeance in his heart.



Genesis 4:9-13
[9] And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper? [10] And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground. [11] And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; [12] When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth. [13] And Cain said unto the Lord , My punishment is greater than I can bear.

1 John 2:9-10
[9] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. [10] He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

No, Abel would have brought a sacrifice for his brother and it greatly pleased God which is Spirit. While Cain was self-serving ...

I am not sure what you men when you say Abel is 'love' or represents 'love'. He represents one who is of God yet fallen in Adam. He represents one who seeks to be right with God in the way God has prescribed, by blood.

I don't believe Abel's sacrifice was for his brother. It was for him to come before God and be found right before God. Abel would have been the same in that he was a sinner before God due to the fall of Adam. Abel would have been the same as Cain in the need to bring a sacrifice before God. But, the difference between Cain and Abel is revealed in the sacrifice they bring. The one who was of God brought the sacrifice that pleased God. The one who was not of God, brought the sacrifice that pleased him.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I am not sure what you men when you say Abel is 'love' or represents 'love'. He represents one who is of God yet fallen in Adam. He represents one who seeks to be right with God in the way God has prescribed, by blood.

I don't believe Abel's sacrifice was for his brother. It was for him to come before God and be found right before God. Abel would have been the same in that he was a sinner before God due to the fall of Adam. Abel would have been the same as Cain in the need to bring a sacrifice before God. But, the difference between Cain and Abel is revealed in the sacrifice they bring. The one who was of God brought the sacrifice that pleased God. The one who was not of God, brought the sacrifice that pleased him.

Stranger

Okay, I'll admit that Abel s sacrifice was for his brother is a stretch. But then maybe not: the Law was to kill a Lamb and if any meat was left over that was more than your household could consume, you were to share with a neighbor. Job offered sacrifices for His household. How do you know the obedience of Abels sacrifice didn't include love? What we do know is Abel's sacrifice absolutely told of a coming sacrifice that would be made for a brother:

2 Corinthians 5:21
[21] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

You can't deny that, or the countless verses on brotherly love. Love seems pretty important to God. From Cain and Abel, to Joseph and His brothers who threw him in a pit. Joseph was sold into slavery yet he forgives his brothers saying God allowed it because it was good in that he was able to provide for his brothers. Esau and Jacob (Edom and Israel). Jews and gentiles. The twins, one with a scarlet thread. There is a commonality there.

Joshua 2:18
[18] Behold, when we come into the land, thou shalt bind this line of scarlet thread in the window which thou didst let us down by: and thou shalt bring thy father, and thy mother, and thy brethren, and all thy father's household, home unto thee.

Why does it matter? Because who is God? Jesus said: if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. God never changes. What I am told by others is: you are either "in Adam" or "in Christ." You say Adam did this noble act:

1 Timothy 2:14
[14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Adam willingly goes into the bondage of death and separation from God, for Eve. Again, a man that had fellowship willingly gave up that fellowship for another. And from a noble act comes: Every sinner "in Adam" and not "in Christ" will be punished in an eternal burning hell.

You said Adam knew God would get him out. The biggest question I have is how did God get Adam(that first man that had fellowship with God) out yet those "in Adam" are not?

 

[bbyrd009]

pretty big leap there, don't you think

 

[VictoryinJesus]

pretty big leap there, don't you think

What do you mean?

 

[GodsGrace]

Okay, I'll admit that Abel s sacrifice was for his brother is a stretch. But then maybe not: the Law was to kill a Lamb and if any meat was left over that was more than your household could consume, you were to share with a neighbor. Job offered sacrifices for His household. How do you know the obedience of Abels sacrifice didn't include love? What we do know is Abel's sacrifice absolutely told of a coming sacrifice that would be made for a brother:

2 Corinthians 5:21
[21] For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

You can't deny that, or the countless verses on brotherly love. Love seems pretty important to God. From Cain and Abel, to Joseph and His brothers who threw him in a pit. Joseph was sold into slavery yet he forgives his brothers saying God allowed it because it was good in that he was able to provide for his brothers. Esau and Jacob (Edom and Israel). Jews and gentiles. The twins, one with a scarlet thread. There is a commonality there.

Joshua 2:18
[18] Behold, when we come into the land, thou shalt bind this line of scarlet thread in the window which thou didst let us down by: and thou shalt bring thy father, and thy mother, and thy brethren, and all thy father's household, home unto thee.

Why does it matter? Because who is God? Jesus said: if you have seen me, you have seen the Father. God never changes. What I am told by others is: you are either "in Adam" or "in Christ." You say Adam did this noble act:

1 Timothy 2:14
[14] And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Adam willingly goes into the bondage of death and separation from God, for Eve. Again, a man that had fellowship willingly gave up that fellowship for another. And from a noble act comes: Every sinner "in Adam" and not "in Christ" will be punished in an eternal burning hell.

You said Adam knew God would get him out. The biggest question I have is how did God get Adam(that first man that had fellowship with God) out yet those "in Adam" are not?

What do you mean that God didn't get out those in Adam?
Salvation?
Men have always had the option of being saved, no?

 

[bbyrd009]

What do you mean?

ah, you edited there after i posted, i guess; i meant this,
"Every sinner "in Adam" and not "in Christ" will be punished in an eternal burning hell."
which even the Rich Man is not implying that imo. He only wants a drop of water for his tongue, right

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What do you mean that God didn't get out those in Adam?
Salvation?
Men have always had the option of being saved, no?

Honestly, I've lost the point. I'll try to regain it: Christ purchased those "in Adam" including Adams wife, those that went into the bondage of sin and death. As Stranger said Adam knew and understood fully the love of God and that God would get Him and Eve out. Added a little bit there.

Christ paid for all sinners under Adams line of sin, right? Like Adam: Christ(God) also joined His bride in the grave (death) but resurrected His bride out of sin and death. He removed her grave clothes. The notion that Adam was clearly redeemed since it was noble to join His deceived wife in death, yet only a few "chosen" out of sin were redeemed with Adam...I can't conceive this to be how God is. It doesn't fit His demonstration of love and mercy and grace and forgiveness. And long suffering. A God who joined us IN the grave (death) to resurrect the sinner(the despised/deceived) to life.

 

[GodsGrace]

Honestly, I've lost the point. I'll try to regain it: Christ purchased those "in Adam" including Adams wife, those that went into the bondage of sin and death. As Stranger said Adam knew and understood fully the love of God and that God would get Him and Eve out. Added a little bit there.

Christ paid for all sinners under Adams line of sin, right? Like Adam: Christ(God) also joined His bride in the grave (death) but resurrected His bride out of sin and death. He removed her grave clothes. The notion that Adam was clearly redeemed since it was noble to join His deceived wife in death, yet only a few "chosen" out of sin were redeemed with Adam...I can't conceive this to be how God is. It doesn't fit His demonstration of love and mercy and grace and forgiveness. And long suffering. A God who joined us IN the grave (death) to resurrect the sinner(the despised/deceived) to life.

I agree about Adam being redeemed. I don't have my Bible right now, but Eve mentioned God when she gave birth to Cain.

Regarding God choosing, I'm in agreement with you and your understanding of God's nature.