Paranoid Christianity

[forrestcupp]

I haven't been around enough to know the context of what is being said here. And I deeply believe in Jesus' truth of knowing a tree by its fruit. But I would just hate for people to get to the point that they claim people have a mental illness because they disagree with the way you believe. Don't forget that Joy Behar basically said that we all have a mental illness because of our beliefs. ;)

 

[Grams]

A lot of people do not understand , things have now changed since JESUS went to the cross, for our sins...........

It's big difference now , doing the right things of course , but no more works for salvation ! Belief and Faith !

and of course understanding what all went on for us at the cross !

 

[bbyrd009]

I haven't been around enough to know the context of what is being said here. And I deeply believe in Jesus' truth of knowing a tree by its fruit. But I would just hate for people to get to the point that they claim people have a mental illness because they disagree with the way you believe. Don't forget that Joy Behar basically said that we all have a mental illness because of our beliefs. ;)

i totally agree, and imo this post should be a banner over the concept, definitely

 

[forrestcupp]

A lot of people do not understand , things have now changed since JESUS went to the cross, for our sins...........

It's big difference now , doing the right things of course , but no more works for salvation ! Belief and Faith !

and of course understanding what all went on for us at the cross !

Works are not a means to salvation, but a result and byproduct of salvation. We're saved by grace through faith. It's only through Christ. But James makes it clear that faith without works is dead faith. He's not talking about earning salvation, but just the idea that if you've been transformed by the grace of God, then it's only natural for you to behave differently than you did before experiencing that grace. If you're not behaving differently, then you probably should look at your heart and get back to setting your affection on things above.

 

[bbyrd009]

It's big difference now , doing the right things of course , but no more works for salvation ! Belief and Faith !

and of course understanding what all went on for us at the cross !

i don't disagree with you in spirit here, but i would assert that there are counterfeits for these.

things have now changed since JESUS went to the cross

I am skeptical here, mostly bc (because) "there is nothing new under the sun."
How do you think that fits with this?

 

[Grams]

Back then, there were many things , we do not even know them all !

As I said many times belief and faith, so I am assuming a person would automatically be doing there best !

upon belief , what happens to a person when they have the truth and understand ????????????

JESUS went to the cross for our sins............ JESUS has no sin !

JESUS did this all for our sins ! Think on that !!!! How can we re pay, by doing our best...... And helping when needed...... even before...

 

[forrestcupp]

I am skeptical here, mostly bc (because) "there is nothing new under the sun."
How do you think that fits with this?

God's heart has never changed, but our ability to access God's heart has changed. Jesus paid the price to reconcile us to the Father. We have access to Him now, whereas before Jesus' perfect sacrifice, only the priests had access through sacrifices.

But I don't know the context of what Grams was meaning when he said things have changed.

 

[bbyrd009]

God's heart has never changed, but our ability to access God's heart has changed. Jesus paid the price to reconcile us to the Father. We have access to Him now, whereas before Jesus' perfect sacrifice, only the priests had access through sacrifices.

imo this does not stand up very well, Abram would likely disagree, and the command to follow Christ can be found in Leviticus, "Love your neighbor as yourself," and even way before then, to Hammurabi even. "No Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins will die" should be considered here imo. Jesus did not die for your sins, iow, in a very real sense

only the Priests of the Law, maybe, i might buy that one

 

[bbyrd009]

But I don't know the context of what Grams was meaning when he said things have changed.

pretty sure he is a she? Grams as in grandma, i think

 

[forrestcupp]

imo this does not stand up very well, Abram would likely disagree, and the command to follow Christ can be found in Leviticus, "Love your neighbor as yourself," and even way before then, to Hammurabi even. "No Son of Man may die for another's sins; the soul that sins will die" should be considered here imo. Jesus did not die for your sins, iow, in a very real sense

only the Priests of the Law, maybe, i might buy that one

I'm not following you here. Are you saying that Jesus didn't die as a sacrifice for our atonement? He didn't die for our sins, but scripture is pretty clear that He died because of our sinful state. The NT is also pretty clear that a lot has changed. Ephesians talks a lot about how the dividing walls have been removed, and Jews and Gentiles all have access together now. 2 Cor. 5 talks about how Jesus reconciled us to the Father. I'm really interested to know how you could possibly come to Christ and read the New Testament, and think that nothing has changed as a result of Jesus death and resurrection.

pretty sure he is a she? Grams as in grandma, i think

Haha. I'm sure you're right. :)

 

[bbyrd009]

Are you saying that Jesus didn't die as a sacrifice for our atonement?

yes; God did not need a sacrifice, otherwise we would not be called to sacrifice again, in "Living Sacrifice."
and no; the Son of Man must be raised up like a snake on a pole in order to draw all men to Himself

another way to state that would be "following Christ good; worshipping Nehushtan bad."

scripture is pretty clear

lol, good one

 

[forrestcupp]

yes; God did not need a sacrifice, otherwise we would not be called to sacrifice again, in "Living Sacrifice."
and no; the Son of Man must be raised up like a snake on a pole in order to draw all men to Himself

another way to state that would be "following Christ good; worshipping Nehushtan bad."

lol, good one

I have no idea where you're coming from. Do you believe that Jesus literally died on the cross, or not? If you do believe that, why in the world would He do it if it wasn't really needed? If you don't believe He literally died on the cross, then I really have no way to converse with you because we're worlds apart.

 

[bbyrd009]

He died because of our sinful state. The NT is also pretty clear that a lot has changed. Ephesians talks a lot about how the dividing walls have been removed, and Jews and Gentiles all have access together now. 2 Cor. 5 talks about how Jesus reconciled us to the Father.

there is nothing new in the world, i am convinced. Human perspectives change imo, not God. so, to reply to these briefly,
"He died because of our sinful state"
"No Son of Man may die for another's sins"

"The NT is also pretty clear that a lot has changed."
"There is nothing new under the sun."

"Ephesians talks a lot about how the dividing walls have been removed, and Jews and Gentiles all have access together now."
"No Jew or Gentile in the kingdom"

"2 Cor. 5 talks about how Jesus reconciled us to the Father."
2 Kings 18:4 describes how Nehushtan was broken up

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm really interested to know how you could possibly come to Christ and read the New Testament, and think that nothing has changed as a result of Jesus death and resurrection.

i would not put it like that, obv our perspectives have undergone several evolutions since then
and at the same time, nothing has changed in a sense

so i am not being fractious simply for the pleasure of it, tho it might seem that way;
When did "I came that you might have life, and more abundantly"
turn into "i can't wait to die, and go to heaven?"

 

[forrestcupp]

i would not put it like that, obv our perspectives have undergone several evolutions since then
and at the same time, nothing has changed in a sense

so i am not being fractious simply for the pleasure of it, tho it might seem that way;
When did "I came that you might have life, and more abundantly"
turn into "i can't wait to die, and go to heaven?"

Lol. Well, first you need to answer my questions in my last post before I can really spend a lot of time on anything.

But what in the world does your last statement have to do with what we were talking about? I believe in the work of God's Kingdom in us and on the earth today. I believe in living in His abundant life right now. I believe, like Ephesians says, that we are currently seated with Christ in heavenly places, and that we can experience the goodness and glory of God today. But I also believe that Jesus is preparing a place for us, and like Paul said in 1 Cor. 15:19, if we only have hope in Christ in this life, we are of all people most to be pitied. They're not mutually exclusive. We can experience His glory now, but still have the Blessed Hope of His glorious appearing later.

But I don't understand what that has to do with whether or not Jesus' death and resurrection brought forth change or not. And I still want to know whether you believe Jesus literally died on a cross, and why?

 

[bbyrd009]

I'm really interested to know how you could possibly come to Christ and read the New Testament, and think that nothing has changed as a result of Jesus death and resurrection.

it took about 40 years, fwiw; but i am hard-headed :)

are you aware that Scripture was almost surely written from the same perspective as the writers of Tao? "Eastern Dialecticism," they call it. i know esoteric new terms are a pain, but then you, we are intimately fam with the "Hegelian Dialectic" without knowing the term; it is built in to our Logical pov, see, a winner and a loser are implied.

So, everyone else here is prolly sick of hearing it, so you might explore "authors of Torah were acknowledged masters of Eastern dialecticism," or iow Scripture was not written from a logical pov, and i'll be invoking such vv as "God's Nonsense," "hidden from the wise," etc to expand further.

since i'm sure you are now worried about my sanity, let me say that we must follow Christ or be doomed, ok,
iow you are going to end up in some cul-de-sac here.
Strictly a diff perspective; the one little kids have, imo

 

[bbyrd009]

I have no idea where you're coming from.

standing on the backs of non-religious giants, ok, i got all of this from pastors; well, not paper-ordained ones
501c3 free! lol
it all has witnesses/links, and if it don't fit toss it

Do you believe that Jesus literally died on the cross, or not?

yes, but

If you do believe that, why in the world would He do it if it wasn't really needed?

needed by whom? i know this is a pain, but let's get that est'd first, i guess

it was really needed, but the ppl were also dissuaded from Nehushtan worship, see, so there is a counterfeit.
Oh ya, "Nehushtan" was the other thing you might google.

 

[forrestcupp]

it took about 40 years, fwiw; but i am hard-headed :)

are you aware that Scripture was almost surely written from the same perspective as the writers of Tao? "Eastern Dialecticism," they call it. i know esoteric new terms are a pain, but then you, we are intimately fam with the "Hegelian Dialectic" without knowing the term; it is built in to our Logical pov, see, a winner and a loser are implied.

So, everyone else here is prolly sick of hearing it, so you might explore "authors of Torah were acknowledged masters of Eastern dialecticism," or iow Scripture was not written from a logical pov, and i'll be invoking such vv as "God's Nonsense," "hidden from the wise," etc to expand further.

since i'm sure you are now worried about my sanity, let me say that we must follow Christ or be doomed, ok,
iow you are going to end up in some cul-de-sac here.
Strictly a diff perspective; the one little kids have, imo

People might learn to understand your perspective more if you could stick with the discussion and clearly answer specific questions without evading them by going on wild, philosophical tangents.

Just answer me this one thing, do you believe Jesus came in the flesh and literally died on the cross?

Edit: I see you ninja'd me. :) what do you mean "yes but"?

 

[aspen]

Well, this is probably not what bbryd is on about in this thread, but: The problem starts where one confuses allegiance to Christ with allegiance to right or left politics. One might end up serving a political side rather than Christ. If you really asked yourself “What would Jesus do” in every single political issue, you’d probably come up with a rather mixed bag and end up like me: there’s not a single political party whose program I can wholeheartedly subscribe to.

Other than that I agree with you: there’s probably just as many beliefs about Christ as there are believers. Most of us, mainline Christians such as myself and fundamentalists alike, have at least some common ground though. For example only the most exotic denominations won’t subscribe to the Nicene Creed.

It is sad that politics is more attractive to many Christians than science. Politics is rooted in untested opinion (superstition)..........scientific opinion, on the other hand, is based on patterns of experience (theory).

 

[bbyrd009]

If you don't believe He literally died on the cross, then I really have no way to converse with you because we're worlds apart.

i have faith in God and his Son Christ, and i no longer believe that beliefs are good for much other than keeping ppl from perceiving better truth when it presents itself. As evidence i might say that regardless of our beliefs on the matter, Christ's crucifixion comes down to us as a story, that we cannot possibly factually verify, right? There was no first-century town of Nazareth, etc etc.