What Is A Christian?

[bbyrd009]

Hard to believe

states the "Christian/Catholic" divide pretty succinctly too though, see, at least from a common perspective.
How is that any different?

 

[bbyrd009]

JWs believe that Jesus is a created being which is not a Christian belief. They do not believe that Jesus was crucified on the cross. Another Christian belief. They do not believe in hell. The NWT intentionally changes the rendering of biblical text to conform to JW theology.
JWs cannot be followers of Christ [Christian] if they do not believe that Jesus is the son of God and is God. A Christian is a believer and follower of Jesus Christ. If you are none of those things then you are in the wrong section my friend.

i am still here because Catholics are great at tolerance and seem to be ahead in the reconciliation area; so fwiw i would hate to see a JW, or for that matter anyone who seeks God, stifled here on the basis of questionable interpretations. Why not let the interpretation stand or fall on its own, in broad daylight? Censoring just seems like the wrong way to go about it imo, i dunno

 

[bbyrd009]

A Christian is a believer and follower of Jesus Christ.

if only, huh?

 

[bbyrd009]

If so, what makes them be Christian if they don't believe that Jesus is God

ha, lots of Christians do not buy "Jesus is God," c'mon GG, that is your standard?

 

[Dcopymope]

Well said.
I like that you added that Jesus will redeem all of creation.
We forget this at times.
Romans 8:19-22

Yep, people don't really think about the full magnitude of his resurrection. It wasn't just about us, his image bearers, it was about everything within the six day creation account. Without his resurrection, you don't have a new heaven and earth, because it is through Jesus Christ that everything is made new.

 

[bbyrd009]

the exact pronunciation of the Hebrew letters

ah, the 4th link

 

[Truth]

And the point was that God, Jehovah has always selected only one group to care for while they follow his commands. In these days they would be the true Christians. So have a look around and see if you can find a group of people that are following God's commands to the best of their ability.

If you do a little research, you will find that the Letter "J" has only been in use for about 400 years, The 1611 version of the KJV doesn't have a single "J" in it, Jesus is spelled Iesus. the Letter "J" is pronounced as a "Y". YAHOVAH!! have any of you ever sang the chorus, hallay lu yah, this is Hebrew and it means Praise be to YAH, the short form of Gods name! as for God choosing one group of people to care for! I think you are limiting God, while our Savior was on the cross He didn't reject the thief, and He Died for the World, not just one denomination! Oh by the way there are Many people that are going to Israel every year to keep the Feasts, they also keep the Commandments, and the Sabbath, as I also do, But I guess that if I don't belong to your Church I am wasting My Time, Right!

 

[amadeus]

Here where I live the JW's are very much respected. My friends say that we Christians should only act as well as they do.

They dress modestly and go to their service and teach their children to be polite. Their children to not participate in Halloween traditions as kids here do.

You may say that these are external factors and Jesus desires an internal change. I agree. But shouldn't that internal change be manifested externally? Parents that call themselves Christian and dress up their girls as witches are not really glorifying God, are they? Here we have the Catholic church,,,it does not even speak to this.

I try to respect any one I meet until they have given me reason not to... Knocking on my door is not such a reason.

I have always enjoyed talking to the JWs and the Mormons the two groups who regularly have done that. Where I live now it is a posted no solicitor community which unfortunately excludes them from the premises. In the past where the choice to receive such visitors was ours, my wife would usually go into the other room while I had fellowship with such visitors. I tried never to talk down to them but rather to engage them as brothers and sisters in the Lord. The JW's seldom came back, but the Mormons, whether it was two young men or two young women usually did. I believe they [the Mormons] enjoyed our conversations as much as I did even though they soon understood that it was very unlikely that I would even attend one of their services.

 

[GodsGrace]

ha, lots of Christians do not buy "Jesus is God," c'mon GG, that is your standard?

Yes!
If one doesn't believe Jesus is God, how could they be a Christian??

The bottom line standard is that:
Jesus is God
He was resurrected from the dead
The Trinity (although it can't be understood)

What do YOU think the bottom line is??
Could I believe Jesus was a good teacher or prophet and nothing else?

I'm not talking about salvation, I'm talking about what it means to be called a Christian.

 

[amadeus]

You are equating yourself with God. You believe you have "eyes to see" and can "discern the ones who are real..."

Please don't read that into my words. It is adding to what I said. Every believer must have a vision:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish... " Prov 29:18

The apostle does not say we are completely blind. On the contrary he says that we can see even if it is not always as clear as God would like for it to be in us.

In 1Kings 8: 38.... whatever prayer, whatever supplication is made by anyone, or by all Your people Israel, when each one knows the plague of his own heart, and spreads out his hands toward this temple: 39. then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men), 40. that they may fear You all the days that they live in the land which You gave to our fathers."

God's people see through a glass darkly until they are physically dead.

Hmmm... and where did you read that there is no clearness or truth at all in anything that they see?
As they grow closer to God should not their vision be improving? Consider what happens each time that Jesus touches our eyes again:

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes!
If one doesn't believe Jesus is God, how could they be a Christian??

easy; by believing that God is the head of Christ, and Jesus was a man, just like the Bible says

The bottom line standard is that:
Jesus is God
He was resurrected from the dead
The Trinity (although it can't be understood)

so you say, yes

What do YOU think the bottom line is?

you will know them by their fruit

Could I believe Jesus was a good teacher or prophet and nothing else?

well, you could believe that He is the Son of Man, like He said, or really what you believe now is fine, i mean, notice how this "belief" you have is different from some "belief" that i have, but really none of these beliefs amount to much more than a way to divide us, right, when really all i care about where my neighbor (you) is concerned in the now is his fruit.

Beliefs are a pimple on the forehead of understanding :)

the fruit of beliefs is division, near as i can tell.

 

[bbyrd009]

Every believer must have a vision:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish... " Prov 29:18

imo if Christians had a vision, instead of the one supplied by the MSM, that most Christians can be observed to accept, engage in, worry about, etc, or the hallucination of rapture, wherein i have even witnessed adherents to that stating "it's ok to trash the planet because Jesus is going to make us a new one," then we would heal up pretty quick. But of course visions require works, so i guess we have to get that part straightened out first or something

 

[amadeus]

imo if Christians had a vision, instead of the one supplied by the MSM, that most Christians can be observed to accept, engage in, worry about, etc, or the hallucination of rapture, wherein i have even witnessed adherents to that stating "it's ok to trash the planet because Jesus is going to make us a new one," then we would heal up pretty quick. But of course visions require works, so i guess we have to get that part straightened out first or something

That little verse I quoted from Proverbs [29:18] is an important one that, I believe, undergirds I Cor 13:12. We need the eyes to see in order to have the vision and those eyes are NOT the little physical orbs located on our faces on either side of the nose and below the forehead. Without the vision, we are dead.

 

[GodsGrace]

easy; by believing that God is the head of Christ, and Jesus was a man, just like the Bible says

Was Jesus just a man?
Was He the Messiah?
Was He the Son of God?
Was He God?

You're allowed to believe what you will. You can't force your brain to believe something you don't.

What I'm saying is that there are standards to being called a Christian.
They were already made up just after Jesus died. It's not up to us to change what the requirements are. The might be right, they might be wrong (that could be discussed) but they can't just be dismissed and everyone allowed to call themselves a Christian when they do not adhere to Christian doctrine.
See?

It's not a matter of my belief or your belief.
As far as THIS is concerned there can only be ONE belief.
We could argue doctrine, but we cannot argue what makes one be a Christian.

so you say, yes

You're saying this to the resurrection and to the Trinity.
If you don't believe in the resurrection and the Trinity, you really are not a Christian. These are fundamentals.

you will know them by their fruit

No, bb, this is not the bottom line of Christianity.
It's the bottom line of knowing a Christian. Or how we're supposed to know one.

By YOUR definition, a Buddhist could be a Christian because they also produce good fruit...

well, you could believe that He is the Son of Man, like He said, or really what you believe now is fine, i mean, notice how this "belief" you have is different from some "belief" that i have, but really none of these beliefs amount to much more than a way to divide us, right, when really all i care about where my neighbor (you) is concerned in the now is his fruit.

Beliefs are a pimple on the forehead of understanding :)

the fruit of beliefs is division, near as i can tell.

This belief would not separate me from you.
I'm just saying that we could serve the same God and be at peace but you could not be a Christian and I could be a Christian.
There is only ONE God.

 

[bbyrd009]

Was Jesus just a man?

no, but neither was He just God.

What I'm saying is that there are standards to being called a Christian.

i doubt Christ would have bothered much with them tbh.

They were already made up just after Jesus died. It's not up to us to change what the requirements are. The might be right, they might be wrong (that could be discussed) but they can't just be dismissed and everyone allowed to call themselves a Christian when they do not adhere to Christian doctrine.

so you say, but IRL it appears that all kinds of concepts are floating around there. We are told to seek our own salvation, so i suggest that it is "up to us to change what the requirements are," at least in a crucial sense. Pretty sure finding an hour a week to fit God into my life on a ritual basis can be improved upon, myself.

As far as THIS is concerned there can only be ONE belief.

you would have to identify "THIS" more clearly for me to argue here :)

We could argue doctrine, but we cannot argue what makes one be a Christian.

so you say, and ok i agree--as long as i get to define "Christian," got any problem with that?

If you don't believe in the resurrection and the Trinity, you really are not a Christian. These are fundamentals.

so then i am not allowed to identify as Christian if i understand these concepts less literally than others who identify as Christian. I'm ok with that.

No, bb, this is not the bottom line of Christianity.
It's the bottom line of knowing a Christian. Or how we're supposed to know one.

so you say, but i note that good fruit comes from "good trees," not "Christians."

By YOUR definition, a Buddhist could be a Christian because they also produce good fruit...

well, see above, or reflect upon the likelyhood of the Good Samaritan wanting to be IDed as Jewish, or whatever works for you. Imo if someone picks me up out of the gutter and feeds me and binds my wounds, and then gets away before i am able to discover whether they ID as Christian or not, they still will not lose their reward. Scripture says when "anyone" does it to the least of these, not when "a Christian" does them.

 

[bbyrd009]

This belief would not separate me from you.

because you are in a different court now, than those who would consider this to be a divider, and they are obviously legion, right? Or there are a lot of them, iow.

I'm just saying that we could serve the same God and be at peace but you could not be a Christian and I could be a Christian.

man, and i am called "idealist" lol. Fwiw i cannot observe this much, in formal Western Christianity anyway.

There is only ONE God.

ha, ya...but there is only ONE nation trying to go to Mars, too, lol, and it is the one labelled "Christian."

 

[speedyj1992]

It seems to me that we're loosing sight of what a Christian is.

Can anyone that believes in God call themselves a Christian?
Does one have to believe in Jesus?
Are there any specific doctrine one MUST believe in?
Are we supposed to behave in any particular way?
Are we supposed to do anything particular?

What makes a Christian be a Christian?

Sorry if someone said this already, but being a Christian requires growth and a willingness to grow, but with the Bible, God's Word, as a basis. We all have our different stories and wrestle with God differently. This is mine, and I hope it helps you understand your own struggle just a little bit better.

 

[tabletalk]

Please don't read that into my words. It is adding to what I said. Every believer must have a vision:

"Where there is no vision, the people perish... " Prov 29:18

The apostle does not say we are completely blind. On the contrary he says that we can see even if it is not always as clear as God would like for it to be in us.



Hmmm... and where did you read that there is no clearness or truth at all in anything that they see?
As they grow closer to God should not their vision be improving? Consider what happens each time that Jesus touches our eyes again:

"And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking.
After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly." Mark 8:23-25

From your post#196, you said: "Only those with the "eyes to see" can discern the ones who are real from the ones who are perhaps even unbeknownst to themselves are playing deadly game among the blind."

What I thought you were saying in this sentence was that you can discern whether or not someone is a Christian. If a Christian is someone who is in Christ, then I think the verse from 1Kings which says no one can know another's heart, would include discerning the changed heart of a Christian:
*(39. then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men),..*

So, I think that no one can discern the ones who are real.

 

[bbyrd009]

So, I think that no one can discern the ones who are real.

sure you can, you just have to stop looking for people who know the right code words and instead look for the fruit

 

[amadeus]

From your post#196, you said: "Only those with the "eyes to see" can discern the ones who are real from the ones who are perhaps even unbeknownst to themselves are playing deadly game among the blind."

What I thought you were saying in this sentence was that you can discern whether or not someone is a Christian. If a Christian is someone who is in Christ, then I think the verse from 1Kings which says no one can know another's heart, would include discerning the changed heart of a Christian:
*(39. then hear in heaven Your dwelling place, and forgive, and act, and give to everyone according to all his ways, whose heart You know (for You alone know the hearts of all the sons of men),..*

So, I think that no one can discern the ones who are real.

God does not let us see everything, but He lets us see some things and when He does He may [or may not according to His will on the thing] also let us know that that is what is happening in the moment. We cannot put God in a box deciding that "no one can [ever] discern the ones who are real". They can if God has allowed it to be so.