The gift of tongues

[bbyrd009]

I know that SIT is an acronym for System Integration Testing. For what is SiT an acronym?

speaking in tongues, sorry

 

[bbyrd009]

So what are your issues with the gift of tongues in 1 Cor 12-14? Please list them and I'll respond one at a time as I have time.

my issues are not with the gift, but how it is ritualized and then made into a salvational requirement. Gifts are things that manifest in our interactions with each other, and are not a badge or a box to check off in some approved path to salvation. Passages meant to communicate spiritual lessons so that life might be lived more abundantly right now are turned into requirements one must accomplish on order to be considered acceptable for entry into a place that does not exist in the manner that people are led to believe, as Scripture points out in many places, "the kingdom is within you, "does not come by observation," which must certainly apply to us eternally, right, i mean what good is "going to heaven" after you die going to do for you if you cannot observe it lol. This tongues thing is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[bbyrd009]

Tongues are deliberately mangled in Scripture because it is about tongues, lol, communication, and you are going to reveal your heart in your interpretation. You are being played, by dialectical masters led by the Holy Spirit. There's like 3 different kinds of tongues, some public some private, and some public getting confused with some private, and one weird description of "tongues" and interpretation provided like 3rd hand, not by a direct witness in a service, there in Cor., that doesn't seem to match anything else.

Now go ahead, give me your logical explanation of tongues lol.

Never mind whether any Apostles actually performed xenoglossy to amazed crowds ok, they either did or they didn't, and that is completely irrelevant to the point anyway. A spiritual lesson about communication is being imparted, on top of a story, likely true, of the Corinthian church and its ties to the worship of Apollo, which many new Corinthian Christians had been influenced by.

Which just incidentally condemns glossolalia, ok, that is out right away, but none of us is ever going to be doing any xenoglossy like we read, either, because that would be to misunderstand the meaning embedded in the lesson; kindness transcends language, and is understood by everyone at the same time.

Reports of xenoglossy are important for what they reveal; by which i guess i mean i would take them with a grain of salt, and apply other tests.

Among other lessons in there, i guess. Recognize what people who have a strong position one way or another about tongues are communicating to you, ok; they have been divided, joints from marrow, for you to see what you will see.

 

[bbyrd009]

View attachment 963

ha my meaning is, when i search the phrase i get the same return, so i am not sure what part you are even objecting to.

 

[bbyrd009]

Recognize what people who have a strong position one way or another about tongues are communicating to you, ok; they have been divided, joints from marrow, for you to see what you will see.

a preoccupation with or over emphasizing the importance of (one's understanding of) tongues is even specifically denounced in the passage to boot lol. And the thing about "rather prophesy" is surely a jab, and is also prolly misinterpreted. There is also a sense in which this is Witnessed in the larger community, in the way people who are too concerned with tongues in whatever manner are perceived. Iow a part of you can't help but ponder how ridiculous the whole concept is, on a certain level. Ecstatic speech to connect one to the divine is an ancient pagan concept that Christians did not invent

 

[OzSpen]

my issues are not with the gift, but how it is ritualized and then made into a salvational requirement.

That's only by a small number of heretical groups who require tongues as an indication of regeneration. In Australia, a group such as the Revival Centres of Australia believe that.

The small group of Oneness Pentecostals (anti-Trinitarian) also believes in tongues for salvation. See also: 'Tongues and baptism for salvation'.

Mainstream Pentecostal denominations such as the Assemblies of God do not believe tongues is a requirement for salvation. They do believe tongues is the initial physical evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

Oz

 

[Garrison]

Hmm just a short testimony, but i was around 10 maybe a little older when i got the gift of speaking in tongues, mum was still reading the bible to me at that point haha. 1 time she was reading the Bible to me in bed, and after she finished she laid hands on me, and asked God to give me the gift of tongues, and I started speaking in tongues, in an unknown language it was pretty awesome and i hadn't done it for a while after that though, but 1-2 years ago it came back to me and i have been doing it ever since, i believe I never lost it though, I just wasn't using it and now i am again. So praise God

It would be interesting to know about you other people on these forums, when and where did you 1st get the gift of tongues?

Scripture does not show people speaking in any "heavenly tongue." There Is no evidence Jesus ever spoke in such a tongue. No Text of a heavenly tongue is in Scripture. At mo time in Scripture are tongues showed to give healing, power, or revelation. John the Revelator did not say he heard heavenly tongues when viewing The Throne in Heaven. The only referenced tongues in Scripture are known Earthly languages.

It is best as a Christian not to use one's imagination and emotions as a factor in such issues as tongues. Doing so grieves The Holy Spirit.

 

[Sword]

It is best as a Christian not to use one's imagination and emotions as a factor in such issues as tongues. Doing so grieves The Holy Spirit.

Do you have a scripture for this part grieving the Holy Ghost?

 

[OzSpen]

Scripture does not show people speaking in any "heavenly tongue." There Is no evidence Jesus ever spoke in such a tongue. No Text of a heavenly tongue is in Scripture. At mo time in Scripture are tongues showed to give healing, power, or revelation. John the Revelator did not say he heard heavenly tongues when viewing The Throne in Heaven. The only referenced tongues in Scripture are known Earthly languages.

It is best as a Christian not to use one's imagination and emotions as a factor in such issues as tongues. Doing so grieves The Holy Spirit.

Garrison,

It seems you have missed a couple strategic verses for God's gift of tongues:

1. "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit" (1 Cor 14:2 NIV). This is not tongues in the local church that requires interpretation. It is the gift of tongues that one uses to speak to God.
   
2. "The one who speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but the one who prophesies builds up the church" (1 Cor 14:4 NET). The gift of tongues provides personal edification. That's Bible!
   
3. You stated: 'At mo (sic) time in Scripture are tongues showed to give healing, power, or revelation'. This is incorrect. Take a read of 1 Cor 14:6 (NIV), "Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?" Tongues can bring revelation, according to the infallible Scripture.
   
4. You state: 'The only referenced tongues in Scripture are known Earthly languages'. The above Scriptures prove that to be false. Of tongues, it is stated that 'they utter mysteries by the Spirit'. Mysteries by the Spirit are not 'earthly languages'. If it's a mystery it cannot be known.

You claim: 'It is best as a Christian not to use one's imagination and emotions as a factor in such issues as tongues. Doing so grieves The Holy Spirit'. This is your imposition on the meaning of tongues and to say that the Spirit's gift of tongues uses one's imagination, emotions and grieves the Holy Spirit, is to violate what the Scriptures state.

Who is the one imposing eisegesis on the biblical text?

Oz

 

[Sword]

It seems you have missed a couple strategic verses for God's gift of tongues:

Yes thats called selective teaching. Agenda teaching.

 

[pia]

Hmm just a short testimony, but i was around 10 maybe a little older when i got the gift of speaking in tongues, mum was still reading the bible to me at that point haha. 1 time she was reading the Bible to me in bed, and after she finished she laid hands on me, and asked God to give me the gift of tongues, and I started speaking in tongues, in an unknown language it was pretty awesome and i hadn't done it for a while after that though, but 1-2 years ago it came back to me and i have been doing it ever since, i believe I never lost it though, I just wasn't using it and now i am again. So praise God

It would be interesting to know about you other people on these forums, when and where did you 1st get the gift of tongues?

Hello Josho........The first time I heard anyone speaking in tongues was when three Christians laid their hands on me and started prying for me to receive The Holy Spirit, and when they started speaking like that, I could not help laughing under my breath, I thought it sounded ridiculous, and I was trying so very hard for them not to notice that I was laughing.
Anyhow later on as we did the 'finishing' prayer for the meeting, suddenly all these weird sounds were coming out of my mouth, with clicking sounds and pronunciations, which when I tried really hard afterward, I simply could not copy. So that was my introduction to it, and I was to say the very least absolutely gob smacked .
Some years later I was watching a nature special and they had some Zulu tribesmen, who were hunting, and suddenly as they spoke to one another, my ears pricked up, because there was what sounded exactly like what had come out of my mouth that night... So very odd !
One other example I can give you, was after an 11 year old girl had been prayed on to receive The Holy Spirit ( as per her request ) and she spent at least 3 hours doing nothing but sitting on the lounge room floor speaking in tongues, I was sitting reading the Bible at the time, and my daughter ( who was also 11 at the time ) had fallen asleep. All of a sudden in amidst all that she was saying I 'heard' one sentence in English, which was :" The angels are coming, breaking down the walls ." The strange thing is, that with my ears I could hear that she was still speaking in tongues, but I 'heard' it some other way. That is the only time that has ever happened though.
So yeah I can't deny they exist, but exactly how and when we as Christians are supposed to use it, well that seems to vary from church to church.....
Thanks for sharing.......Blessings Pia

 

[Garrison]

Garrison,

It seems you have missed a couple strategic verses for God's gift of tongues:

1. "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit" (1 Cor 14:2 NIV). This is not tongues in the local church that requires interpretation. It is the gift of tongues that one uses to speak to God.
   
2. "The one who speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but the one who prophesies builds up the church" (1 Cor 14:4 NET). The gift of tongues provides personal edification. That's Bible!
   
3. You stated: 'At mo (sic) time in Scripture are tongues showed to give healing, power, or revelation'. This is incorrect. Take a read of 1 Cor 14:6 (NIV), "Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?" Tongues can bring revelation, according to the infallible Scripture.
   
4. You state: 'The only referenced tongues in Scripture are known Earthly languages'. The above Scriptures prove that to be false. Of tongues, it is stated that 'they utter mysteries by the Spirit'. Mysteries by the Spirit are not 'earthly languages'. If it's a mystery it cannot be known.

You claim: 'It is best as a Christian not to use one's imagination and emotions as a factor in such issues as tongues. Doing so grieves The Holy Spirit'. This is your imposition on the meaning of tongues and to say that the Spirit's gift of tongues uses one's imagination, emotions and grieves the Holy Spirit, is to violate what the Scriptures state.

Who is the one imposing eisegesis on the biblical text?

Oz

I see you are speaking things I anticipated you would.

Now, can you cite the specifics of any actual "mystery, edification, or revelation" which have come from a "heavenly language?" The difficulty here is that no such information from "tongues" is given in Scripture. And, it does not happen today, pentecoatals csm only talk about it happening. If you cannot give such actual information about this "mystery, edification, or revelation" through tongues, then they do not exist outside of your imagination.

The solution to this dilemma is in the fact Paul, the only NT writer to claim such "tongues" exist, was an exuberant writer, placing his personal desires and imaginary doctrine in his writings. Paul was not an actual Apostle, never being called one by The Twelve Apostles. He was not Apostle number thirteen. Apostle Peter dismissed him to the Gentiles to get rid of him and his ideas.

Paul himself wrote in I Cor. 7:12, "Speak I, not the Lord." Read it for yourself before arguing.

 

[Armadillo]

1 Corinthians 14:1-2, Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit.

If speaking in tongues means a language you don't know but can speak then that tongue speaks to people.

Romans 8:27, And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.

You have your mind and the Holy Spirit has His mind. God searches the heart to find the mind of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit lives in your heart, not in your mind. The Holy Spirit listens to you speak all the time, when does He get to speak?

 

[Helen]

As the saying goes:-
“A man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument.”. :)
"Oh taste and see that the Lord is good, blessed is the man that trusteth in Him."
It's like a child who has something wonderful and precious being told by another child...'what you have is no good, stupid, and worth nothing.'
All the time the first child just sits and smiles, and feels sorry for his friend who does not have or desire what he has. :)

 

[OzSpen]

Yes thats called selective teaching. Agenda teaching.

I agree. It also can be repeating or reinforcing the teaching of one's tradition or church.

 

[OzSpen]

Garrison,

It seems you have missed a couple strategic verses for God's gift of tongues:

1. "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit" (1 Cor 14:2 NIV). This is not tongues in the local church that requires interpretation. It is the gift of tongues that one uses to speak to God.
   
2. "The one who speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but the one who prophesies builds up the church" (1 Cor 14:4 NET). The gift of tongues provides personal edification. That's Bible!
   
3. You stated: 'At mo (sic) time in Scripture are tongues showed to give healing, power, or revelation'. This is incorrect. Take a read of 1 Cor 14:6 (NIV), "Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?" Tongues can bring revelation, according to the infallible Scripture.
   
4. You state: 'The only referenced tongues in Scripture are known Earthly languages'. The above Scriptures prove that to be false. Of tongues, it is stated that 'they utter mysteries by the Spirit'. Mysteries by the Spirit are not 'earthly languages'. If it's a mystery it cannot be known.

You claim: 'It is best as a Christian not to use one's imagination and emotions as a factor in such issues as tongues. Doing so grieves The Holy Spirit'. This is your imposition on the meaning of tongues and to say that the Spirit's gift of tongues uses one's imagination, emotions and grieves the Holy Spirit, is to violate what the Scriptures state.

Who is the one imposing eisegesis on the biblical text?

Oz

Garrison,

You didn't deal with the teaching I provided on the biblical view of tongues. I wonder why.

Please note the quotation marks in this statement: 'It is best as a Christian not to use one's imagination and emotions as a factor in such issues as tongues. Doing so grieves The Holy Spirit'. I am quoting from YOUR post #167.

It is YOU who is imposing your meaning on the text - eisegesis.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

I see you are speaking things I anticipated you would.

Now, can you cite the specifics of any actual "mystery, edification, or revelation" which have come from a "heavenly language?" The difficulty here is that no such information from "tongues" is given in Scripture. And, it does not happen today, pentecoatals csm only talk about it happening. If you cannot give such actual information about this "mystery, edification, or revelation" through tongues, then they do not exist outside of your imagination.

The solution to this dilemma is in the fact Paul, the only NT writer to claim such "tongues" exist, was an exuberant writer, placing his personal desires and imaginary doctrine in his writings. Paul was not an actual Apostle, never being called one by The Twelve Apostles. He was not Apostle number thirteen. Apostle Peter dismissed him to the Gentiles to get rid of him and his ideas.

Paul himself wrote in I Cor. 7:12, "Speak I, not the Lord." Read it for yourself before arguing.

Garrison,

Do you believe Scripture speaks the truth? If so, then the gift of tongues will bring this message: "Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?" (1 Cor 14:6 NIV).

According to you, 'no such information from "tongues" is given in Scripture'. That's arguing from silence and it's a fallacy.

There are many places in Scripture where teaching is given and there are no examples given. Take Matt 5:9 (NIV), 'Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God'. In that context nothing is said about how to be a peacemaker. Again, you are imposing your view on what you think tongues ought to do in Scripture.

Your claim is that "it does not happen today, pentecoatals csm (sic) only talk about it happening". Have you been in ALL Pentecostal assemblies worldwide to make such an audacious claim that "it does not happen today". I happen to be a former Assemblies of God pastor and Bible College teacher. I have heard much revelation, knowledge and words of instruction come through tongues and interpretation. It's too late to tell me that "it does not happen today". You are speaking from ignorance.

You state: Paul was "an exuberant writer, placing his personal desires and imaginary doctrine in his writings. Paul was not an actual Apostle". That's a pathetic statement about the authority of Scripture. All Scripture, including Paul's writings, are God-breathed and are "useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work" (2 Tim 3:16-17).

Luke has declared Paul and Barnabas as Apostles in Acts 14:14. You have a restrictive view of God's understanding of the qualifications for an apostle.

Yes, Paul wrote: 'Paul himself wrote in I Cor. 7:12, "Speak I, not the Lord'. The context is clear that Paul was speaking about men and women with spouses who were unbelievers. It's incredible of you to suggest that Paul's writings were "an exuberant writer, placing his personal desires and imaginary doctrine in his writings". That's imposing your will on the text when the context is specific to one topic Paul was talking about. And have a guess what? God by his Spirit authorised Paul to state, 'Speak I, not the Lord', in the inerrant Scripture.

You have some rather loose theology in this post of yours.

Oz

 

[amadeus]

So many views, but what is it that God wants from people? Did He not confuse the tongues of people at the tower of Babel? It wasn't that speaking a common language was wrong. It was they were unified in a cause that was offensive to God. Perhaps by confusing their natural languages some of them would have a better opportunity to connect with Him.

Before receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost, I already spoke three human languages, but that did not unify me on many issues with most people even though I able to speak at a much larger audience. Most of them still did not hear me. Of course at the time neither was I hearing from God.

So then in 1976, I began speaking in an unknown tongue as a gift from God. For a long time now, I have spoken to God in this unknown tongue [not unknown to Him] on a daily basis. It is a part of my prayer life.

 

[Garrison]

Garrison,

It seems you have missed a couple strategic verses for God's gift of tongues:

1. "For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit" (1 Cor 14:2 NIV). This is not tongues in the local church that requires interpretation. It is the gift of tongues that one uses to speak to God.
   
2. "The one who speaks in a tongue builds himself up, but the one who prophesies builds up the church" (1 Cor 14:4 NET). The gift of tongues provides personal edification. That's Bible!
   
3. You stated: 'At mo (sic) time in Scripture are tongues showed to give healing, power, or revelation'. This is incorrect. Take a read of 1 Cor 14:6 (NIV), "Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will I be to you, unless I bring you some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?" Tongues can bring revelation, according to the infallible Scripture.
   
4. You state: 'The only referenced tongues in Scripture are known Earthly languages'. The above Scriptures prove that to be false. Of tongues, it is stated that 'they utter mysteries by the Spirit'. Mysteries by the Spirit are not 'earthly languages'. If it's a mystery it cannot be known.

You claim: 'It is best as a Christian not to use one's imagination and emotions as a factor in such issues as tongues. Doing so grieves The Holy Spirit'. This is your imposition on the meaning of tongues and to say that the Spirit's gift of tongues uses one's imagination, emotions and grieves the Holy Spirit, is to violate what the Scriptures state.

Who is the one imposing eisegesis on the biblical text?

Oz

It is good for you to bring this to me. Let's pretend we both have excellent English Comprehension skills.

In your 1.) you cite Paul saying, "Anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people, but to God."

Then, in your 3.) You cite Paul again saying, "If I come to you and speak in tongues, what good will it be to you, unless I bring YOU [emphasis mine] some revelation or knowledge or prophecy or word of instruction?"

So, which is it? First Paul says tongues are not for people, then he says they are for people. This shows how flakey and dimwitted Paul and His writings are.

1 Cor. 7:12, "Speak I [Paul], not the Lord."

Now tell me, what revelation(not already found in Scripture)/knowledge(of material value)/prophecy (which came true)/word of knowledge (which was useful)" have you actually undertaken with these "tongues" you claim to know about? Anything? Or are you just all talk?

You are unable to answer this question, because you erroneously think "talking about Scripture" means it happens in you. Lol. Far from the Truth.

 

[Helen]

It seems to me that the precious things of God should just stay that way..precious.
This thread was started by Josho..as a Testimony of something good God did in his life. Something precious that God gave him..( In the Testimony section of the forum)

Matt 7 "Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."
We have tasted, and we know that God is good...all the time.
The Holy Spirit does what He will and when He wills...and it is good indeed.
Why does everything have to end up in a debate, or in baiting!!