Limited atonement !

[brightfame52]

My point is it's a two tier Propitiation. All are Propitiated for, but the Church is Propitiated and Expiated for. It's a Completed Propitiation because it's Expiated. Think of it like a 'Completed Jew'; a Jew who is a Christian. The Unconditionally Elect Believing Ones are completely Propitiated for..

Christ is the Propitiation of the World, especially for Believers. There are two Categories of Propitiation seen here. The Bought; and the Paid for...


Here's a Title for a potential Thread about this...

The Bought; and the Paid for...

To be propitiated for is to be saved.

 

[Hey You!]

To be propitiated for is to be saved.

To be Expiated, is to be Saved...

 

[brightfame52]

Obtained Eternal Redemption for us !

Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

We can perceive from this scripture that Christ could not have shed His Redeeming Blood for all mankind, since those He did shed His Own Blood For [His Church Acts 20:28] He for them obtained Eternal Redemption.

This Eternal Redemption isn't conditioned upon mans freewill or man having to make a decision, its totally based upon Christs Own Blood. This is something Christ had success in, what He set out to do. The word obtained in our text is the word heyriskō and it means:

I find, learn, discover, especially after searching.

And its in the middle voice, meaning its obtained for Himself and His Body whom Hes One with Heb 2:11

11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

And this what He obtained redemption lytrōsis

1. a ransoming, redemption
2. deliverance, esp. from the penalty of sin

And we know all men without exception have not been delivered from the penalty of sin ! So Christ could not have shed His Own Blood for them ! 12

 

[brightfame52]

To be Expiated, is to be Saved...

Yes they are interlaced

 

[brightfame52]

I like Fullerism, which agrees that Jesus tasted Death for All; but it agrees with Calvinism that Jesus only Bore the Sins God Nailed to the Cross of Christ...

Fullerism is a deadly inconsistent heresy sir, it wants to mix calvinism and arminianism together, its deadly !

 

[Hey You!]

Fullerism is a deadly inconsistent heresy sir, it wants to mix calvinism and arminianism together, its deadly !

It's deadly to Hyper Calvinism. It opposes Arminianism. Calling Fullerism, Arminianism; is wrong, since it doesn't include any Arminian Doctrine. Fullerism holds to all 5-Points...

 

[brightfame52]

It's deadly to Hyper Calvinism. It opposes Arminianism. Calling Fullerism, Arminianism; is wrong, since it doesn't include any Arminian Doctrine. Fullerism holds to all 5-Points...

Fullerism is worser than arminianism and its a deadly deception, may God be merciful to you and deliver you from it

 

[Hey You!]

Fullerism is worser than arminianism and its a deadly deception, may God be merciful to you and deliver you from it

That's a Bald Assertion; why is it worser? Because it believes in Unconditional Election?

 

[Lizbeth]

Did Christ die for those represented in this world Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. 11

God's word can be a dangerous thing in the hands of the carnal mind. Though this was all foreseen by the Lord just as He has foreseen all things and foreknows who would receive Him and who would reject and resist Him. The apostle wrote that the natural man can't perceive the things of God, they must be spiritually discerned. We mustn't think John 17:9 verse means Jesus never prayed for the lost and that we are not to pray for them, or that our prayers for the lost souls of this world ultimately won't make a difference...... or that God didn't so love the world that He gave His only Son. God didn't create people to be puppets with no say in the matter. The fact that He allows both man and devil to usually have their own way yet He remains victorious and sovereignly ruling and reigning above them all is to His very great glory.

 

[Runningman]

Where do we read that Judas was "directly promised eternal life?" He was chosen as one of the twelve, but Jesus knew that Judas would betray Him:

“"Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and to the scribes; and they will condemn Him to death,” (Mt 20:18 NKJV)

“Now as they were eating, He said, "Assuredly, I say to you, one of you will betray Me."” (Mt 26:21 NKJV)

“"The Son of Man indeed goes just as it is written of Him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been good for that man if he had not been born." Then Judas, who was betraying Him, answered and said, "Rabbi, is it I?" He said to him, "You have said it."” (Mt 26:24-25 NKJV)

As has been pointed out, in His high-priestly prayer, Jesus refers to Judas as the son of perdition:

“"While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.” (Joh 17:12 NKJV)

The "Twelve" in the synoptic gospels always refers to the 12 hand-chosen disciples that Jesus chose, which includes Judas. Yes, Judas was directly promised eternal life and and also said to have been lost. Judas was also a believer who was qualified to exercise spiritual gifts. This is all sola scriptura.

Scripture teaches that Judas was was initially a chosen, saved, believer who was lost in the end. This debunks yours and @brightfame52 's false gospel.

Mark 16
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

Matthew 10
1And calling His twelve disciples to Him, Jesus gave them authority over unclean spirits, so that they could drive them out and heal every disease and sickness.
2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first Simon, called Peter, and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus.

Matthew 19
27“Look,” Peter replied, “we have left everything to follow You. What then will there be for us?”
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.

John 17
12While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The "Twelve" in the synoptic gospels always refers to the 12 hand-chosen disciples that Jesus chose, which includes Judas. Yes, Judas was directly promised eternal life and and also said to have been lost. Judas was also a believer who was qualified to exercise spiritual gifts. This is all sola scriptura.

Scripture teaches that Judas was was initially a chosen, saved, believer who was lost in the end. This debunks yours and @brightfame52 's false gospel.

Mark 16
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In My name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;

Matthew 10
1And calling His twelve disciples to Him, Jesus gave them authority over unclean spirits, so that they could drive them out and heal every disease and sickness.
2These are the names of the twelve apostles: first Simon, called Peter, and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed Jesus.

Matthew 19
27“Look,” Peter replied, “we have left everything to follow You. What then will there be for us?”
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, in the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on His glorious throne, you who have followed Me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for the sake of My name will receive a hundredfold and will inherit eternal life.

John 17
12While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

Plus the jailer Chose Jesus. There is zero evidence he was chosen.
He said "what must I do to be saved"
Paul never said " nothing, you are either chosen or not, you have no say"

 

[Runningman]

Prove that He included Judas. Jesus excluded judas in many things Like Jn 17:12

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Says nothing about judas being saved. Many going to hell that did stuff like that, they werent saved, Jesus never knew them Matt 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Judas Iscariot was chosen and saved and given with spiritual authority. The evidence from Scripture speaks of Jesus losing Judas, contrary to limited atonement saying he was lost because he was never really saved.

Judas is named in Matthew 10:1-4 as one among the Twelve. He was explicitly granted authority to cast out demons and heal the sick like the other apostles by Jesus himself. However, that was an authority exclusively mentioned with respect to believers in another part by Jesus himself according to Mark 16:17. Thus, it affirms that Judas had been an authentic follower of Christ, assigned with the same function and authority as the other believers by the beginning.

In Matthew 19:27-29 Jesus makes a promise the Twelve, including Judas, that they shall sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel and will receive eternal life, a promise which would be incomprehensible if Judas had been never saved.

Even in John 17:12, Jesus refers to Judas as "the son of destruction" who was "lost," implying he was once one of those preserved and protected disciples before his betrayal. Prior possession is presupposed by the language of loss; nobody can lose that which was never had.

So, Scripture is consistent in saying Judas was a believer who fell away from grace in fulfillment of prophecy but not predestined from the beginning for damnation.

This narrative conforms to the broader biblical doctrine of apostasy (see Hebrews 6:4-6 and 2 Peter 2:20-22) and indeed undermines the assertion that Judas was only a false disciple.

Seeking to redress the initial salvation of Judas means avoiding the clear words of the Bible and thereby compromises the stark warning they pose against the possibility of true believers turning away from Christ.

In other words, limited atonement can't be true according to Scripture.

 

[brightfame52]

That's a Bald Assertion; why is it worser? Because it believes in Unconditional Election?

Because its really arminainism in disguise, it still holds out salvation as a possibility for the non elect, only if they believe.

 

[brightfame52]

God's word can be a dangerous thing in the hands of the carnal mind. Though this was all foreseen by the Lord just as He has foreseen all things and foreknows who would receive Him and who would reject and resist Him. The apostle wrote that the natural man can't perceive the things of God, they must be spiritually discerned. We mustn't think John 17:9 verse means Jesus never prayed for the lost and that we are not to pray for them, or that our prayers for the lost souls of this world ultimately won't make a difference...... or that God didn't so love the world that He gave His only Son. God didn't create people to be puppets with no say in the matter. The fact that He allows both man and devil to usually have their own way yet He remains victorious and sovereignly ruling and reigning above them all is to His very great glory.

Did Christ die for those represented in this world Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

 

[brightfame52]

Judas Iscariot was chosen and saved and given with spiritual authority. The evidence from Scripture speaks of Jesus losing Judas, contrary to limited atonement saying he was lost because he was never really saved.

Judas is named in Matthew 10:1-4 as one among the Twelve. He was explicitly granted authority to cast out demons and heal the sick like the other apostles by Jesus himself. However, that was an authority exclusively mentioned with respect to believers in another part by Jesus himself according to Mark 16:17. Thus, it affirms that Judas had been an authentic follower of Christ, assigned with the same function and authority as the other believers by the beginning.

In Matthew 19:27-29 Jesus makes a promise the Twelve, including Judas, that they shall sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel and will receive eternal life, a promise which would be incomprehensible if Judas had been never saved.

Even in John 17:12, Jesus refers to Judas as "the son of destruction" who was "lost," implying he was once one of those preserved and protected disciples before his betrayal. Prior possession is presupposed by the language of loss; nobody can lose that which was never had.

So, Scripture is consistent in saying Judas was a believer who fell away from grace in fulfillment of prophecy but not predestined from the beginning for damnation.

This narrative conforms to the broader biblical doctrine of apostasy (see Hebrews 6:4-6 and 2 Peter 2:20-22) and indeed undermines the assertion that Judas was only a false disciple.

Seeking to redress the initial salvation of Judas means avoiding the clear words of the Bible and thereby compromises the stark warning they pose against the possibility of true believers turning away from Christ.

In other words, limited atonement can't be true according to Scripture.

You havent proved nothing, not that judas was saved, he was chosen to apostleship, thats it and damnation for his dastardly deed, it was best that he be not born Matt 26:24

The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

He was doomed to perdition from his mothers womb, you know what perdition means ? He was a son of perdition dude Jn 17:12

While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Perdtion is the opposite of salvation Phil 1:28

And in nothing terrified by your adversaries: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.

Thats what judas was chosen for !

 

[Lizbeth]

Did Christ die for those represented in this world Jn 17:9

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Jesus was particularly praying those particular prayers for the believing church, not the lost. Because those blessings He was praying for can only apply to His believing church.......whoever would be saved.

He died for the sins of the whole world.........BUT every soul must RECEIVE AND BELIEVE in order for His sacrifice to be applied to them. Just like the Israelites who made animal sacrifices had to eat the sacrifice in order to be a partaker of the altar of sacrifice. This is why Jesus said being that He is the bread of life, except ye eat my body and drink my blood ye have no life in you......each soul must receive Him into our heart/spirit to be saved.

1Co 10:16-18

The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread.

Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar?

 

[BreadOfLife]

There's a problem with the AI Version and RSV. Expiation is the Removal of Sin; Propitiation is not. Propitiation is the Payment of Sin, not the Removal of Sin. The AI and RSV Versions are Universalim; a Heresey to Us all...

Sure, Christ is the Propitiation of the World; but ESPECIALLY for Believers, because Expiation accompanies it. @brightfame52 may hear you more clearly, if you Speak more certainly...

That’s what I get for being lazy . . .

However – even this flawed version doesn’t support Limited Atonement.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Limited atonement is part of the Gospel

PROVE it.

 

[Hey You!]

That’s what I get for being lazy . . .

However – even this flawed version doesn’t support Limited Atonement.

Why not? Propitiation is a Universal Price Paid, but Expiation is Limited to Believers; right?

Expiation is like that governor on an engine; it limits the throttle...

Expiation limits the Propitiation...

 

[brightfame52]

@Lizbeth

Jesus was particularly praying those particular prayers for the believing church, not the lost.

Yes He was praying specifically for His Church, and yet some of it had not yet been born, He prays for them as well, they are the ones who shall believe through the testimony of the Church Jn 17:20

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Now when they are first born into the world they are spiritually lost in darkness and dead in sin like everyone else, but since they belong to His Church He will do everything needed to save them and cause them to believe the Truth.