Run that by me again, Moses

[Lambano]

Would you be able to agree that no one in the Hebrew Bible and / or in the New Testament said anything like “don’t confuse the persons with their ousia”?

There's nothing in the New Testament that records Jesus going to the latrine either. The Docetists claim that's because He didn't.

I've said it before: It's one of my pet peeves that this line of argument always hinges on person A not being person B, which is not the point under dispute.

 

[Matthias]

There's nothing in the New Testament that records Jesus going to the latrine either. The Docetists claim that's because He didn't.

Thanks. The closest we can come to agreement then is that there’s nothing like that recorded in the Hebrew Bible and there’s nothing like that recorded in the New Testament.

You leave open, apparently, the possibility that it was said by people who lived during New Testament times but no one saw the need to write it down, or an argument along those lines.

We do find it written down much later in church history; in the 4th century, during the Arian controversy.

I've said it before: It's one of my pet peeves that this line of argument always hinges on person A not being person B, which is not the point under dispute.

My thread is about agency and in agency the person sent isn’t the person who sent him but acts and speaks as if he is.

 

[PS95]

I’m a Jewish monotheist who believes that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah, Son of the living God. I believe the Bible.

Which came first in the church: Jewish unitary monotheism or trinitary monotheism?

I did not know you were Jewish by birth.......... Yet, you tell us daily that you are. Stop the charade. You are not a Jew.
How about a.. Spiritually Jewish Monotheist?
Christian <--what the apostles were first called. It stuck- early church fathers also called themselves Christians. Imagine that.

Moses was speaking for God is all that means.
Moses did not create a thing. That would be Jesus.. of whom you are terribly confused about.
Moses never lived with God the Father in heaven and shared His glory.... that would be Jesus..
I could go on but why bother. You are just so proud of your self- declared Jewish title there is nothing I can say to you.

 

[Matthias]

I did not know you were Jewish by birth.......... Yet, you tell us daily that you are.

That is false and anyone who takes the time to search my posts will easily find that out for themselves. They won’t have to go back more than a couple of weeks to prove it.

Stop the charade. You are not a Jew.
How about a.. Spiritually Jewish Monotheist?
Christian <--what the apostles were first called. It stuck- early church fathers also called themselves Christians. Imagine that.

Moses was speaking for God is all that means.
Moses did not create a thing. That would be Jesus.. of whom you are terribly confused about.
Moses never lived with God the Father in heaven and shared His glory.... that would be Jesus..
I could go on but why bother. You are just so proud of your self- declared Jewish title there is nothing I can say to you.

If you have nothing more you can say to me then don’t.

 

[PS95]

That is false and anyone who takes the time to search my posts will easily find that out for themselves. They won’t have to go back more than a couple of weeks to prove it.



If you have nothing more you can say to me then don’t.

Prove what Matt- that you were naturally born a Jew?
Or were not? Hence my post.

 

[Matthias]

Prove what Matt- that you were naturally born a Jew?
Or were not? Hence my post.

At no point in time, on this forum or on any other, have I ever said that I was born a Jew. I have stated unequivocally that I wasn’t. The last time I did was about two weeks ago, in a public conversation here with a member who was and no longer claims to be a Jew.

When will you stop with your lies? You aren’t harming me; you’re only harming yourself.

 

[PS95]

That is false and anyone who takes the time to search my posts will easily find that out for themselves. They won’t have to go back more than a couple of weeks to prove it.



If you have nothing more you can say to me then don’t.

Prove what Matt? that you are or are not a Jew by natural birth?
You do realize that calling yourself a Jewish Monotheist that you sound to others that you are claiming to be Jewish.
Why not just a monotheist? or my other suggestions above?

I dont dislike you. We have always gotten along despite our differences. It's just every time I'm on here I have to read you saying
"I am a Jewish Monotheist." it's misleading and unnecessary and repetitive.. That's all. You worship Jesus and God the father, and I am happy to welcome you as a brother.
but this Jesus was an "it' belief that makes you a Jewish monotheist is just plain divisive.

 

[Matthias]

Prove what Matt? that you are or are not a Jew by natural birth?
You do realize that calling yourself a Jewish Monotheist that you sound to others that you are claiming to be Jewish.
Why not just a monotheist? or my other suggestions above?

I dont dislike you. We have always gotten along despite our differences. It's just every time I'm on here I have to read you saying
"I am a Jewish Monotheist." it's misleading and unnecessary and repetitive.. That's all. You worship Jesus and God the father, and I am happy to welcome you as a brother.
but this Jesus was an "it' belief that makes you a Jewish monotheist is just plain divisive.

I’m a Jewish monotheist by conversion from trinitarianism. I’ve shared the story of my conversion on this forum, which a search of my posts will document, and on other forums.

Jewish monotheism is not the same as monotheism.

 

[PS95]

I’m a Jewish monotheist by conversion from trinitarianism. I’ve shared the story of my conversion on this forum, which a search of my posts will document, and on other forums.

Jewish monotheism is not the same as monotheism.

I'm done with two threads.. so let's go to the other.
fine , call yourself what you want. I tried. Just know that it makes you sound as if you are claiming to be a Jew. There are plenty of people who assume much.
Especially, now with the rampant mistaken teachings by people who misunderstand what Paul said about Israel and Jews.

 

[Wick Stick]

Would you be able to agree that no one in the Hebrew Bible and / or in the New Testament said anything like “don’t confuse the persons with their ousia”?

I will. Sure enough - the Old Testament prophets didn't use words that didn't exist yet!

They do, however, speak of "the Angel of the LORD" and "The Word of the Lord" and "The Spirit of the Lord."

This isn't quite the slam-dunk you make it out to be. And I'm not even a Trinitarian by your definition!

 

[Matthias]

I'm done with two threads.. so let's go to the other.
fine , call yourself what you want. I tried.

I call myself what I am; and what I am is a Jewish monotheist. Elsewhere you will find that I have said that I’m a 1st century Jewish monotheist living in the 21st century. I’m mildly surprised that you haven’t falsely accused me of believing in reincarnation.

Just know that it makes you sound as if you are claiming to be a Jew. There are plenty of people who assume much.

My theology is Jewish, not trinitarian.

Especially, now with the rampant mistaken teachings by people who misunderstand what Paul said about Israel and Jews.

 

[PS95]

I call myself what I am; and what I am is a Jewish monotheist. Elsewhere you will find that I have said that I’m a 1st century Jewish monotheist living in the 21st century. I’m mildly surprised that you haven’t falsely accused me of believing in reincarnation.
My theology is Jewish, not trinitarian.

Ok. We hear you . You are not a Christian like the apostles. You are Jewish..
and............... Moses has left the building!
goodnight,.

 

[Wick Stick]

I’m mildly surprised that you haven’t falsely accused me of believing in reincarnation.

I mean... a lot of 1st century Jews believed in transmigration of souls...

 

[Matthias]

I mean... a lot of 1st century Jews believed in transmigration of souls...

Jesus didn’t. I don’t.

 

[Matthias]

Ok. We hear you . You are not a Christian like the apostles.

From the feedback you’ve given me, I don’t think you have. I’m a primitive Christian exactly like I’ve said - and used the concessions of trinitarian scholarship to support - the apostles are.

None of the apostles knew anything about Nicene Christianity. That is a constraint of history.

You are Jewish..
and............... Moses has left the building!
goodnight,.

Moses is a Jewish monotheist. So am I.

The God of Moses is the God of Jesus and the God of the apostles.

P.S.

If you haven’t read them, I recommend Edmund J. Fortman’s book, which is titled The Triune God: A Historical Study of the Doctrine of the Trinity and Harold O.J. Brown’s book titled Heresies: Heresy And Orthodoxy In The History Of The Church. I quote from them often, but they aren’t the only trinitarian sources I quote to support my faith.

 

[Wick Stick]

Moses is a Jewish monotheist.

Technically... Moses wasn't Jewish. He was from the tribe of Levi

 

[Matthias]

Technically... Moses wasn't Jewish. He was from the tribe of Levi

View attachment 61529

Jewish monotheism is applicable to all of the tribes of Israel.

 

[Lambano]

My thread is about agency and in agency the person sent isn’t the person who sent him but acts and speaks as if he is.

I was wondering if Jesus's agency was bidirectional?

Does our tradition of praying in His name (based on John 14:13) assume He is also our agent?

 

[Matthias]

I was wondering if Jesus's agency was bidirectional?

Does our tradition of praying in His name (based on John 14:13) assume He is also our agent?

Keeping in mind that a shaliah would be someone whom we send to speak the words we give him to speak - our words placed in his mouth - and to act as we direct him to act on our behalf, I would say that he isn’t.

To illustrate:

I don’t instruct Jesus, “Here is what you are to say to our God and Father when you speak with him for me.” If he were my shaliah, I would.

What are your thoughts about the question? What do you think about my response to it?

 

[Lambano]

Keeping in mind that a shaliah would be someone whom we send to speak the words we give him to speak - our words placed in his mouth - and to act as we direct him to act on our behalf, I would say that he isn’t.

To illustrate:

I don’t instruct Jesus, “Here is what you are to say to our God and Father when you speak with him for me.” If he were my schaliah, I would.

And I will do whatever you ask in my name,...

When we ask the Father for something in Jesus's name, are we not effectively telling Jesus how we want him to represent us before the Father? At least, Jesus seems to be saying He will treat it as such.