Where did the Bible come from? - Shot out of a canon

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St. SteVen

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God is our loving heavenly Father. We were created in His image.
He cares deeply about us. And wants the best for us.
We are welcome to crawl up into His lap whenever we want.
This begs a few questions:
1) Should an omniscient God be surprised by wickedness? (sin)
2) Did the omniscient God (the Logos) not anticipate wickedness? (sin)
3) If the answer to the previous two question is "No.", would wrath be an appropriate response?
4) How do we characterize an enraged human who creates their own disaster?
They had it coming, right? No one to blame but themselves. ???
5) How is God any different? Does he operate below the standard he holds us to?


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ProDeo

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Your turn.

Alright.

Actually I had hoped for a testimony how you came to Christ and about the process to become an Universalist, surely that was not an overnight change. So here is mine.

It was Saturday, September 28, 1974, between 18:00 - 18:30, Starterstraat 24, The Hague, I (by His undeserved Grace) was baptized (by the lack of a better description, since all words fail) in God's overwhelming love twice within a half hour and never after. Two life changing experiences. And in retrospect, the good Lord knew that one love-blessing (by the lack of a better description) was not enough because He knew me, that I during time would scrutinize the supernatural experience to death and would end as an agnostic at best. All praise for the Lord for His wisdom and Grace.

And I learned 3 things at once, God exist, He is Love, and He is Holy. And while I was walking home at night my conscience became awake and I saw the city with different eyes, as sinful and I remember saying to God, "why me and not the whole city?", and the answer never came. And I did not know what to do but the Lord led to the Bible in His own special way and I learned about Christ and wanted to know everything about God, still do.

So, regarding Universalism, based on the love I received, felt in every cell of my body, God is Love, who knows it is true, with God everything is possible, but the Scriptures say NO.

Your turn ?
 
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ProDeo

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I don't know why people want to try and silence God by putting His expressed thoughts in a box, or should I say, a book and sealing it shut, a closed canon.
Tell me, how to proceed.

That sounds more likely a Satan thing to do than God.

As Jesus said, I have much more to tell you, more than you can now bear. But when He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.

The church has the living present accompanying Spirit to lead us into all truth, every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. Definitely not such a tiny book, know as a bible.

The Bible certainly is not a tiny book, at least not for me.
 

ProDeo

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You have a very good point here. As we get to know God, His character, these passages of His intense wrath in isolation seem to not to be consistent with His love.
I think there is a huge difference between God's wrath in this live than in the afterlife.

Reading the fall, A&E wanted to know about good and evil, they actually insisted, and actually God gave them (us) exactly what they wanted. A world full of good and evil. A sort of lesson in obedience, if God says DO NOT, then don't. A lesson to remember in eternity.

Or in the words of Kierkegaard - Life is not a problem to be solved, but a reality to be experienced.

Like me who was once separated and opposed to my Creator, found His love irresistible, then repented. I was reborn and ever since that defining moment of surrender I have been used by God for a totally different purpose. This too will be the case with all who go into and through the fire. They will come out repentant, having surrendered themselves to their Creator and ready to serve Him for good. To add, to build and complete. Not to steal, kill and destroy.
Amen to that.
 

St. SteVen

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This begs a few questions:
1) Should an omniscient God be surprised by wickedness? (sin)
2) Did the omniscient God (the Logos) not anticipate wickedness? (sin)
3) If the answer to the previous two question is "No.", would wrath be an appropriate response?
4) How do we characterize an enraged human who creates their own disaster?
They had it coming, right? No one to blame but themselves. ???
5) How is God any different? Does he operate below the standard he holds us to?
@ProDeo

... Mercy triumphs over judgment. - James 2:13 NIV

The tendency in Christianity is to view the judgment as a manifestation of
God's wrath AGAINST humankind, that were created in his image.

But how should the God who commanded us NOT to take revenge act?
Yes, he will repay, but from my perspective, that doesn't have to mean lashing out
at us in unbridled fury. God is love. How does love respond to a wrong done?

What did Jesus teach us about godly behavior? We are to love our enemies.
Turn the other cheek, Go the extra mile. Pray for those who persecute you,
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. - Matthew 5:44-45

How should this GODLY behavior be manifested in God the Father?
Would he tell us to love our enemies while he incinerates his own?
I thought he hated hypocrisy. Is he not abounding in mercy?

That being said, he will certainly deal rightly with us. Every idle word and
every selfish deed will be answered for. We will be required to reconcile with the
one who knows us inside and out. There will be no escape from his inquiry,

The great physician will do major surgery on us to remove every bad thing.
A miracle of restoration for a soul that is literally welded to sin. (body of death)

Therefore I view God's justice as being done in each of us individually.
To the degree that it will satisfy the hurt of others we have caused.
Correction, restoration, healing and redemption for all of humankind.

A triumph of grace.

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St. SteVen

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Alright.

Actually I had hoped for a testimony how you came to Christ and about the process to become an Universalist, surely that was not an overnight change. So here is mine.
You asked me to state my view on the character of God.
I can gladly testify to how I came to Christ and how I came to accept Universalism. See below.

It was Saturday, September 28, 1974, between 18:00 - 18:30, Starterstraat 24, The Hague, I (by His undeserved Grace) was baptized (by the lack of a better description, since all words fail) in God's overwhelming love twice within a half hour and never after. Two life changing experiences. And in retrospect, the good Lord knew that one love-blessing (by the lack of a better description) was not enough because He knew me, that I during time would scrutinize the supernatural experience to death and would end as an agnostic at best. All praise for the Lord for His wisdom and Grace.

And I learned 3 things at once, God exist, He is Love, and He is Holy. And while I was walking home at night my conscience became awake and I saw the city with different eyes, as sinful and I remember saying to God, "why me and not the whole city?", and the answer never came. And I did not know what to do but the Lord led to the Bible in His own special way and I learned about Christ and wanted to know everything about God, still do.
At eight years of age I was attending a Summer Bible camp in Wisconsin. In a morning chapel service the man speaking did as they always did, he gave an invitation to receive Christ. He asked that all heads be bowed and all eyes closed. But I found myself peeking to see if any of these "lost sinners" would raise a hand. At that moment God spoke to me. Though it was a supernatural event, it seemed as natural to me as anything. I knew who it was and wasn't frightened, or disturbed by it. What I heard was mind-blowing. It came like a tap on my shoulder. The message was clear and direct. "If you think it is so important, why haven't you done it?" I was speechless. I answered with my feet. I knew the drill. I rose to my feet and pushed my way to the aisle to go forward before we were even asked to do so. When I was a young adult I made a connection about this event that had not been apparent to me at the time. The man who led me to Christ was the son of the man that led my father to the Lord. A Christian Alliance missionary that went from farm to farm inviting people to Sunday School and sharing the gospel in the area where my father grew up. Basically in the middle of nowhere. Such a wonderful mystery, the workings of our great God.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We had a family situation. My sister-in-law informed my mother-in-law
that she couldn't believe in a God that would put people in hell.
Mom was pretty upset. She was afraid of losing a child to unbelief.
The church had taught her that those who succumb to unbelief will be lost for all eternity.
Mom was devastated. Understandably.

The family had been raised evangelical, as had I. Which left me with nothing to offer but the standard apologetics about hell.
This left me with a hollow feeling inside. My "biblical" defense did nothing to help the situation. Mom was still sobbing.
There was really nothing we could say to my sister-in-law to help the situation. I thought she was at least half right.

The hell doctrine bothered me too. Although the church was backing away from the hellfire and brimstone message...
It was still there. Now softened to "Eternal separation from God." (whatever that means)

I did some research to see if I could bolster my hell belief enough to hang onto it. Again, the empty rhetoric prevailed.
What was hell and why did God create it that way the church described it? Such pointless and sadistic horror.
What kind of a...? (sigh)

Then a forum friend whose biblical knowledge I trusted said that he didn't believe in a forever burning hell. Say what?
I responded by saying, "Tell me more." He directed me to a forum topic where Universalism was being discussed.
So, I did some research in that direction. My eyes were opened to something I had never seen before when I read this verse.
I had seen the verse before but never noticed the words, "not only for ours". Say what? That's where it began.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

So, regarding Universalism, based on the love I received, felt in every cell of my body, God is Love, who knows it is true, with God everything is possible, but the Scriptures say NO.
The Scriptures say "NO"?
Certainly not ALL of them.

Your turn ?
Is that all you have to say about the character of God? "God is Love"

[
 
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The Bible certainly is not a tiny book, at least not for me.
Sure. I can relate to you.

I made the bible a big book, not reading anything else for years. It became everything.

After the Spirit revealed that it had become too big to me, in fact an idol, I repented of it.

Since then the Spirit has been communicating with me directly and occasionally through humans.
 
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The Bible certainly is not a tiny book, at least not for me.
And could I add, the words of God expressed through humans, written down and have found their way into the bibles have been a great resource.

It's like milk in one's diet. As a baby it was my only source of sustinance that nourished me and kept me alive. But over time solid food was added to my diet by my parents. Now milk is only a very small part of my daily diet.

My spiritual food that nourishes my spirit is still the same, every word that proceeds from my Parent in heaven. In the early years it came through the bibles (milk). Ever since then His life giving words have come through various means, rarely the bible.
 
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St. SteVen

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In the early years it came through the bibles (milk). Ever since then His life giving words have come through various means, rarely the bible.
While reading this I had the thought that milk helps to build the bones.
Those strong bones remain after the massive milk diet has ended.
Same with the Bible. That milk gives us a backbone to stand spiritually as we mature to receive the meat.

John 14:26 NIV
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name,
will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

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David Lamb

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And could I add, the words of God expressed through humans, written down and have found their way into the bibles have been a great resource.

It's like milk in one's diet. As a baby it was my only source of sustinance that nourished me and kept me alive. But over time solid food was added to my diet by my parents. Now milk is only a very small part of my daily diet.

My spiritual food that nourishes my spirit is still the same, every word that proceeds from my Parent in heaven. In the early years it came through the bibles (milk). Ever since then His life giving words have come through various means, rarely the bible.
If God's life-giving words rarely come through the bible, what is the standard by which they can be judged as being God's word? We'd be left with each individual Christian saying, "I believe this because such-and-such happened." or "....because I had a vision" or whatever.
 

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If God's life-giving words rarely come through the bible, what is the standard by which they can be judged as being God's word? We'd be left with each individual Christian saying, "I believe this because such-and-such happened." or "....because I had a vision" or whatever.
That's exactly what has happened in the past.

God spoke to Moses. God spoke to David. God spoke to Jeremiah, Isaiah, Joel, Peter, Paul and hasn't stopped giving dreams, vision, prophesies, tongues, interpretation of tongues, revelations to John, Daniel the ability to interpret dreams. God speaking through animals, clouds, nature and the list goes on.

The scrolls from which the bibles were compiled were God's expressed thought downloaded to humans who wrote them down and some have been distributed in the various biblical canons of which there are many.


Most of God's expressed thoughts were never documented.

Why do people, especially those who claim to have a direct relationship with Jesus, His Father and Their Spirit find it so difficult to accept that They have never stopped revealing Their truth about Themselves to Their people?

I find this puzzling. God has never been silent nor been silenced. He loves us and wants us to know Them. What a privilege.
 

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If God's life-giving words rarely come through the bible, what is the standard by which they can be judged as being God's word?
You have read, “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— just as the Father knows me and I know the Father.

And...

The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.

Again I'm puzzled by your question.

There's no standard. It's a relationship. 2 way communication Spirit to spirit.

Again you have read, But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.
 

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If God's life-giving words rarely come through the bible, what is the standard by which they can be judged as being God's word?
When my wife communicates with me I don't need a standard or a third party or medium or interpreter to know its her and what it is she is saying to me.

It's up to her to ensure I've understood her.

Likewise, in the relationship with the Spirit, I know Him and I know when He's communicating with me. We've been in a relationship for a long time now.

He knows if I haven't understood or misunderstood Him and it's up to Him to ensure He gets His point across.
 
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St. SteVen

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David Lamb

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That's exactly what has happened in the past.

God spoke to Moses. God spoke to David. God spoke to Jeremiah, Isaiah, Joel, Peter, Paul and hasn't stopped giving dreams, vision, prophesies, tongues, interpretation of tongues, revelations to John, Daniel the ability to interpret dreams. God speaking through animals, clouds, nature and the list goes on.

The scrolls from which the bibles were compiled were God's expressed thought downloaded to humans who wrote them down and some have been distributed in the various biblical canons of which there are many.


Most of God's expressed thoughts were never documented.

Why do people, especially those who claim to have a direct relationship with Jesus, His Father and Their Spirit find it so difficult to accept that They have never stopped revealing Their truth about Themselves to Their people?

I find this puzzling. God has never been silent nor been silenced. He loves us and wants us to know Them. What a privilege.
Yes, God spoke in various ways in the past, before people had the full bible:

“God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;” (Heb 1:1-2 NKJV)

Where do we read the words of His Son? In the bible. Jesus Himself said that the Old Testament also taught things about Him. As part of the account of the risen Jesus and His encounter with two disciples on the road to Emmaus, we read:

“And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.” (Lu 24:27 NKJV)
 
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Yes, God spoke in various ways in the past, before people had the full bible
Out of interest, which is the full bible? There has been a 11 book biblical canon through to a 88 book bible with many variations in between.
“God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;” (Heb 1:1-2 NKJV)
Yes, these have been ways God has communicated with His creation. Obviously not exclusively by the prophets and by His Son.
Where do we read the words of His Son? In the bible.
Yes, a little of His Son's words were recorded in the bibles, but most were never documented.

How do we hear the words of His Son? By the Spirit of Truth He sent to live in us.
Jesus Himself said that the Old Testament also taught things about Him.
Very very small fraction
As part of the account of the risen Jesus and His encounter with two disciples on the road to Emmaus, we read:

“And beginning at Moses and all the Prophets, He expounded to them in all the Scriptures the things concerning Himself.” (Lu 24:27 NKJV)
Again, obviously only a very small percentage of truth about the Creator was 1. ever written down 2. verbally revealed by Jesus when He was on earth.
 

David Lamb

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Out of interest, which is the full bible? There has been a 11 book biblical canon through to a 88 book bible with many variations in between.
I believe the 39 books of the Old Testament and 27 of the New.
Yes, these have been ways God has communicated with His creation. Obviously not exclusively by the prophets and by His Son.

Yes, a little of His Son's words were recorded in the bibles, but most were never documented.
But we are given indications that all that is necessary has been recorded:

“but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.” (Joh 20:31 NKJV)
How do we hear the words of His Son? By the Spirit of Truth He sent to live in us.

Very very small fraction

Again, obviously only a very small percentage of truth about the Creator was 1. ever written down 2. verbally revealed by Jesus when He was on earth.
That must indeed be the case, because human minds are not capable of grasping all the truths about the infinite Being that God is.
 
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ProDeo

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You asked me to state my view on the character of God.
I can gladly testify to how I came to Christ and how I came to accept Universalism. See below.
Thanks for sharing your testimony, much appreciated.

I have been an Universalist for a short time years ago.

But then I realized you can't make the wish the father of the doctrine.

And so I am back on the old familiar nest and I still don't know what will happen to unbelievers who are told but rejected and the unknowing who were not told but lived a life according Rom 2:14-15

Does God's mercy stop after dying, is a very good question.

Likewise - Mercy triumphs over judgment [James 2:13]

I could add - Love triumphs over Mercy, since love is the origin of mercy.

Then a forum friend whose biblical knowledge I trusted said that he didn't believe in a forever burning hell. Say what?
I responded by saying, "Tell me more." He directed me to a forum topic where Universalism was being discussed.
So, I did some research in that direction. My eyes were opened to something I had never seen before when I read this verse.
I had seen the verse before but never noticed the words, "not only for ours". Say what? That's where it began.

1 John 2:2 NIV
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

The first one who said that was the other John -

John 1:28 These things took place in Bethany across the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
John 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

And Jesus did, at the same moment He died the curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom, meaning the way now is free to God through Jesus but you have come and accept the gift.

The Scriptures say "NO"?
Certainly not ALL of them.
Is that all you have to say about the character of God? "God is Love"

You know, it is said, the Gospel means "The good news" and that is true, but something else and new -- NOT IN THE OT -- suddenly becomes an issue, called SALVATION in afterlife. Notable Jesus is the first Person who speaks about Gehenna, the unquenchable fire on several occasions. Use the YLT for the right translation of the word hell.

And about half of the forum posts relate to the aspects of SALVATION in afterlife.
 

St. SteVen

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Does God's mercy stop after dying, is a very good question.

Likewise - Mercy triumphs over judgment [James 2:13]

I could add - Love triumphs over Mercy, since love is the origin of mercy.
I like this question: Did Jesus die to save us from God?

BTW: good post. Thanks.

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