Where did the Bible come from? - Shot out of a canon

[One 2 question]

OTOH, we have the Scriptures and in there is everything to know for our stay here on Earth.

I agree with you mostly but not on this one. I'd have to ask how you came to this conclusion?

I agree that scriptures is beneficial but it doesn't contain every word that comes from the mouth of God. Jesus said that's what we need to know and live by for our stay here on earth.

 

[One 2 question]

Can't wait for more of His revelations.

We have been discussing a bit about revelation in this thread. More about revelation that is beyond what was given to those who contributed to the books of the bibles.
These has been mixed responses as you can imagine.

 

[St. SteVen]

I agree that scriptures is beneficial but it doesn't contain every word that comes from the mouth of God. Jesus said that's what we need to know and live by for our stay here on earth.

Indeed.

John 10:27 NIV
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

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[ProDeo]

This scripture provides no hope for the condemned, unless you believe in God's mercy for the condemned.

Sure I understand Universalism.

Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

But this is the same Paul -

2Thess 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

 

[ProDeo]

I agree with you mostly but not on this one. I'd have to ask how you came to this conclusion?

It's not a conclusion, it was followed by -

Deut 29:29 “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Cannon was closed as you say, no more revelations from God, a human decision.

Search for the word Apokatastasis, it's not new, it started in the second century and was popularized by the ECF Origen, but was condemned by the RCC in the 6th century --> Apokatastasis was definitely condemned as heresy by the Synod of Constantinople of 543.[8]

 

[ProDeo]

It's challenging for us created beings to think like the Designer/Creator. Maybe impossible unless He gives us a divine revelation or ability to imagine such a task.

How do we start with nothing then imagine something unknown.

If we could imagine something not in existence, a spirit being (angel) for example, how would we go about creating them?

The Creator imagined everything then bought them into existence in its time, in His designated time. This is so beyond my ability to fathom. I wouldn't know where to start, what order to place events so that everything doesn't explode or implode.

Then there is the desired outcomes for each created thing. Throwing billions of chemicals in together and producing that desired outcome. Mind boggling!

Indeed, mind boggling.

Good conclusion, we are fearfully and wonderfully made.

And fit for His purpose.

 

[St. SteVen]

Sure I understand Universalism.

Rom 11:32 For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

But this is the same Paul -

2Thess 1:9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,

This is why I say the scriptures are contradictory on the doctrine of the final judgment.
Believers tend to choose the ones they prefer and refute the others. To what end?

Ultimately I choose the doctrine that fits my view of the character of God.

My topics on the subject.

What does the hell doctrine say about the character of God?​

God's character informs the purpose of his justice​

The Character of God - Reader Poll​

Open Discussion of UR Chapter Three - God's character​

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[One 2 question]

And fit for His purpose.

Eternal purpose.....
His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose that he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

I really think that the church in general has lost its perspective thanks to the religious leaders who misused and abused their authority and influence.

Their no. 1 tactic was instilling fear and no. 2 encouraging self-centerdness.

Their no.1 tool, the bibles.

Is the bibles evil of themselves. I don't believe so buy how they have been used is the problem. Both Satan and Jesus used the same means in the wilderness, the scriptures.

 

[One 2 question]

Cannon was closed as you say, no more revelations from God, a human decision.

I don't know why people want to try and silence God by putting His expressed thoughts in a box, or should I say, a book and sealing it shut, a closed canon.

That sounds more likely a Satan thing to do than God.

As Jesus said, I have much more to tell you, more than you can now bear. But when He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all truth.

The church has the living present accompanying Spirit to lead us into all truth, every word that proceedeth from the mouth of God. Definitely not such a tiny book, know as a bible.

 

[One 2 question]

It's not a conclusion, it was followed by -

Deut 29:29 “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Cannon was closed as you say, no more revelations from God, a human decision.

Search for the word Apokatastasis, it's not new, it started in the second century and was popularized by the ECF Origen, but was condemned by the RCC in the 6th century --> Apokatastasis was definitely condemned as heresy by the Synod of Constantinople of 543.[8]

Thanks. Yes, the restoration of all to their Creator, even the planets, all of creation crying out to be liberated. Awesome hope to have. I love it. It fills my soul, my heart with joy.

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the freedom and glory of the children of God. We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.​

 

[ProDeo]

This is why I say the scriptures are contradictory on the doctrine of the final judgment.
Believers tend to choose the ones they prefer and refute the others. To what end?

Ultimately I choose the doctrine that fits my view of the character of God.

My topics on the subject.

What does the hell doctrine say about the character of God?​

God's character informs the purpose of his justice​

The Character of God - Reader Poll​

Open Discussion of UR Chapter Three - God's character​

Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

For Universalism the first thing you have to do is to throw Revelation out of your Bible.

Much of Revelation is based on OT passages, I once made a document of that on an old website of mine, unfortunately the links don't work any longer but it gives an excellent impression how much is based on the main OT prophets Daniel, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Jeremy.

https://7b4393b6-d792-40ae-b704-8e57a3b16e62.usrfiles.com/ugd/7b4393_c637c63712a04ce1a9cfee79416de946.pdf

For the above 3 verses check out Ezekiel chapter 8 and 9, it's also about people receiving a mark, the ones who escape from a terrible judgement. Some quotes -

Ezech 8:18 Therefore I will act in wrath. My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity. And though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them.”

Ezech 9:1 Then he cried in my ears with a loud voice, saying, “Bring near the executioners of the city, each with his destroying weapon in his hand.”
Ezech 9:2 And behold, six men came from the direction of the upper gate, which faces north, each with his weapon for slaughter in his hand, and with them was a man clothed in linen, with a writing case at his waist. And they went in and stood beside the bronze altar.
Ezech 9:3 Now the glory of the God of Israel had gone up from the cherub on which it rested to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed in linen, who had the writing case at his waist.
Ezech 9:4 And the LORD said to him, “Pass through the city, through Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations that are committed in it.”
Ezech 9:5 And to the others he said in my hearing, “Pass through the city after him, and strike. Your eye shall not spare, and you shall show no pity.
Ezech 9:6 Kill old men outright, young men and maidens, little children and women, but touch no one on whom is the mark. And begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the elders who were before the house.

....

Ezech 9:10 As for me, my eye will not spare, nor will I have pity; I will bring their deeds upon their heads.”
Ezech 9:11 And behold, the man clothed in linen, with the writing case at his waist, brought back word, saying, “I have done as you commanded me.”

From Daniel we know who the man clothed in linen is.

Isa 34:8 For the LORD has a day of vengeance, a year of recompense for the cause of Zion.
Isa 34:9 And the streams of Edom shall be turned into pitch, and her soil into sulfur; her land shall become burning pitch.
Isa 34:10 Night and day it shall not be quenched; its smoke shall go up forever. From generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it forever and ever.

Read the whole chapter, interesting is that the fire eventually went out.

You can argue that OT judgement is only about our short stay on earth, but Revelation judgement is eternal.

 

[St. SteVen]

Read the whole chapter, interesting is that the fire eventually went out.

That's an important clue.
Interesting that the eternal fire went out.
It speaks to the quality of the fire, not the duration of the burning.

You can argue that OT judgement is only about our short stay on earth, but Revelation judgement is eternal.

What is your view of the character of God?

[

 

[One 2 question]

That's an important clue.
Interesting that eternal fire went out.
It speaks to the quality of the fire, not the duration of the burning.


What is your view of the character of God?

[

You have a very good point here. As we get to know God, His character, these passages of His intense wrath in isolation seem to not to be consistent with His love.

If God the Father sent His Spirit to us to bear His character in us and the greatest and dominant attribute of His character is love, then what do we expect His actions to reflect? Isn't it love.

Whatever He does is governed by His love for His Son Jesus and His creations. God the Father birthed His creations into existence which became corrupted and as a result has decided to put it into bondage. But only for a time.

God disciplines those He loves. But this is for a time and according to His purpose, to correct what needs correcting and adjusting. Once this tool has been modified and sharpened, the sword becomes a sickle, it's use and purpose are very different.

Why do I say all this? Lucifer who became Satan will be taken through the fire to modify and correct him so that he carries out a very different purpose, to produce good not evil.

I can't wait to see this transformation take place in him. Like me who was once separated and opposed to my Creator, found His love irresistible, then repented. I was reborn and ever since that defining moment of surrender I have been used by God for a totally different purpose. This too will be the case with all who go into and through the fire. They will come out repentant, having surrendered themselves to their Creator and ready to serve Him for good. To add, to build and complete. Not to steal, kill and destroy.

 

[St. SteVen]

God disciplines those He loves. But this is for a time and according to His purpose, to correct what needs correcting and adjusting. Once this tool has been modified and sharpened, the sword becomes a sickle, it's use and purpose are very different.

I would take this one step further, the sickle becomes a scalpel for the great physician to do his necessary surgery.

Fantastic post, BTW.

[

 

[One 2 question]

I would take this one step further, the sickle becomes a scalpel for the great physician to do his necessary surgery.

Fantastic post, BTW.

[

And He shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.

Yes, God wants to bring peace, reconciliation and unity which we desire and pray for.

 

[St. SteVen]

Yes, God wants to bring peace, reconciliation and unity which we desire and pray for.

Agree.
Why would the Logos (logic/reason/plan) of God for humankind end in tragedy instead of triumph?

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[Aunty Jane]

Whatever He does is governed by His love for His Son Jesus and His creations. God the Father birthed His creations into existence which became corrupted and as a result has decided to put it into bondage. But only for a time.

“Love” (agape) sometimes calls for drastic measures to remove that which promotes evil. So God has allowed his children to experience first hand what “evil” is, because the devil said this knowledge would benefit us. Has it? It has to those who have learned something from it…..but to the majority, it means little.
God has a standard of justice by he holds all to account. His justice can be tempered by mercy when that is warranted…but it is never administered with mere sentiment…..do we know the difference?

There is a reason why “justice” is depicted as blindfolded….in a world ruled by the devil, what you “see” isn’t always true because deception is the devil’s stock in trade. The truth is dressed up as lies, and the lies accepted as truth…..the “deceiver” is very good at his craft. Have we been deceived by an expert?

God disciplines those He loves. But this is for a time and according to His purpose, to correct what needs correcting and adjusting. Once this tool has been modified and sharpened, the sword becomes a sickle, it's use and purpose are very different.

Yes, “discipline” is something that we have lost at this “time of the end”. Any form of discipline is apparently now viewed as abuse by a world without God….and they have banned it, giving it labels that God never intended that it should have.

The Hebrew noun “mu·sarʹ“ and the verb form “ya·sarʹ“ convey the sense of “discipline,” “chastisement,” “correction,” “exhortation.”
In the Greek Septuagint and in the Christian Scriptures, the corresponding noun “pai·deiʹa” and the verb “pai·deuʹo” have basically the same significance, meaning a “child,” as it primarily relates to what is needed in bringing up children….discipline, instruction, education, correction, chastisement.

Prov 3:11-12 says….”My son, do not despise the Lord's discipline or be weary of his reproof, for the Lord reproves him whom he loves, as a father the son in whom he delights.” (ESV) Every parent knows what this means.

The principle in 1 Cor 11:32 applies….speaking of human parents Paul says…

“Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.”

Who then are “the world” who stand “condemned”? What does this condemnation lead to? (Matt 7:13-14; 21-23)

Why do I say all this? Lucifer who became Satan will be taken through the fire to modify and correct him so that he carries out a very different purpose, to produce good not evil.

One thing that the Bible makes clear is that those who benefit from Christ’s ransom sacrifice, are only the children of Adam and Eve….not angels…..and most especially not satan. Why? Because sinful humans had no choice about this awful inheritance of sin and death….they were plunged into this world of the devil’s making through his lies and deception that affected the choices of the first humans. The rebels did not have a sinful nature inborn…..they willfully chose to disobey their Sovereign. Perfect creatures do not make mistakes….they make decisions often in full knowledge of the consequences as satan did…and as Adam did. These two are responsible for the world we live in along with all its tragedy and suffering. The woman was just used as leverage, to bait Satan’s real target.

I can't wait to see this transformation take place in him.

Don’t hold your breath…..there will be no “transformation” as the devil and all whom he has deceived will be cast into the “lake of fire”…..which is not “hell” as there is no such place. “Gehenna” is not “hades” and hades never had a fire…..it was a place of silence. (Psalm 115:17) “Sheol” in Hebrew…..”the grave”. (Eccl 9:5, 10)

”Gehenna“ was a fiery place, but it was Jerusalem’s garbage dump, where fires were kept burning day and night to consume the garbage that was thrown in it. Jesus’ Jewish audience knew exactly what he meant when he spoke of “Gehenna”…..it was a place of eternal destruction as Jesus plainly stated….even human garbage was thrown there.

Matt 10:28….Jesus said….
”And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell [gehenna].“ (ESV) Bad translations give false impressions.

In this “hell” body and soul” are “destroyed”….there is no conscious existence after death……because there are no immortal souls to experience it. Jesus never taught this pagan Greek concept adopted in Judaism and later in Christianity (or what passed for “Christianity”)

Having emotional idea about salvation does not mesh with the clear history of God‘s dealings with his enemies….just as surely as he dealt with them in times past…he will deal with them again, because God does not change…..and will never change to accommodate the emotionally based ideas of humans seeking an excuse not to obey him.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Agree.
Why would the Logos (logic/reason/plan) of God for humankind end in tragedy instead of triumph?

The “triumph” is in eliminating all wickedness and those who practice it, forever….leaving precedents so that no one in the future will ever be able to challenge the Sovereignty of the Creator…ever again….neither angel nor human.

That is a guarantee, meaning that free will remains as the gift God intended it to be…fully under his guidance and direction.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Yes, God wants to bring peace, reconciliation and unity which we desire and pray for.

We sure do, because everything in us tells us how wrong this world is in the way it is governed causing extreme corruption at the highest levels….and in the imperfections that create horrific conflicts personally, between humans, as well as globally, between nations.

In our hearts, we all want peace and security…..but under God’s terms…not ours. Those who are reconciled to God give to him what he requires of us….they are not just free hand outs with nothing required on our part.
In the beginning continuing life was conditional…..it still is. Obedience was the crucial factor.

 

[ProDeo]

That's an important clue.
Interesting that the eternal fire went out.
It speaks to the quality of the fire, not the duration of the burning.

I knew you would like that

What is your view of the character of God?

You first