If you’re a Christian and you support the modern geopolitical state of Israel, you deny that Christ is the Messiah. It's that simple.

[The Gospel of Christ]

Non-sequitor, you should know better.

Much love!

“Non-sequitur”? No — it’s the most theologically sequitur statement you’ll ever hear.

If you’re a Christian and you believe the modern state of Israel still holds covenantal, redemptive status apart from Christ — then yes, you're functionally denying that Jesus is the fulfillment of the covenant. You're denying that He is the seed, that He is the Temple, that He is the land, and that He is the Kingdom.

You’re not just off by a footnote — you’re saying the cross wasn’t enough.

You’re saying God still owes something to a people outside of Christ — which means you’re placing another covenant alongside, or even above, the one ratified in His blood.

That’s not Christianity.
That’s not the Gospel.
That’s anti-Christ in effect, whether you realize it or not.

Jesus didn’t die to become a side note in a Scofield study chart.
He is the inheritance, the true Israel, and the only access to the Father.

So no, it’s not a “non-sequitur.”

It’s the entire Gospel in one sentence:
If Christ is the Messiah, there is no covenant outside of Him. Period.

 

[marks]

This is not me “redefining” anything.

Oh yes you are. You are claiming that the ones to whom God made a promise, will not receive that promise, because God changed His mind about who would be the recipients to the promise.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to believe God over you. God doesn't make Himself a liar, it's people who try to do that.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You’re saying God still owes something to a people outside of Christ —

I'm saying God keeps His promises in the way He meant them. It's just not OK for someone to come along and say, OH, God didn't really mean that. If God doesn't keep His promises then what is your hope? Just a wistful wishful desire that it might be true? No, God is true. Men are the ones who lie.

God in the OT promised to save a remnent of Israel at the end of the age. Jesus echoed that promise. Now we have an Israel in the land in unbelief, right there, to be saved, the remnent, when Jesus comes in power and glory.

Much love!

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Rather, you've decided to mischaracterize my portrayal of God as one who keeps His promises, to become a point a ridicule.

That's fine, I don't mind your ridicule, as I stand for the God of Truth. IF you think of this idea of God being true, and not breaking promises, as some dusty old clerk puttering around equally dusty old files, that's on you.

Much love!

You’re absolutely right that God is the God of Truth. That’s exactly why I’m calling out the false, Scofield-system you’ve wrapped Him in — a system that claims His promises still hang on bloodlines, land deeds, and national identity — instead of being fulfilled in Christ, as the New Testament declares over and over — though you apparently choose not to see it.

I’m not mocking the idea that God keeps His promises. I’m rejecting the man-made, Scofieldian, Star Wars fantasy that God’s promises are on pause, waiting to be mailed back to a nation-state that has rejected His Son and built a new religion in that rejection.

God didn’t forget His covenant — He fulfilled it. In Christ. Completely.

And when you ignore that, when you act like the Gospel is “spiritual,” but somehow God’s real covenantal action is still tied to earthly borders and war machines — you’re the one who reduces Him to a dusty contract clerk, rifling through the Old Testament like He lost a receipt from 3,000 years ago.

He has made the first obsolete. – Hebrews 8:13
In Christ, all the promises of God are yes and amen. – 2 Corinthians 1:20
If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed. – Galatians 3:29
There is neither Jew nor Gentile... for you are all one in Christ Jesus. – Galatians 3:28

^ How can you continue to ignore this?

You must live in a permanent state of cognitive dissonance when it comes to the Gospel —like some kind of theological cataract infection from decades of Scofield-induced blindness. You’re not defending scripture — you’re addicted to a prophecy cosplay fantasy, where maps matter more than blood, and Jesus is just the guy who holds the door open for the next dispensation. You’re out here straining at Hebrew genealogies while the entire New Testament is screaming: ‘The promises are fulfilled. In Christ. Not Tel Aviv.

I’m not mocking God — I’m just exposing the system that replaced Jesus & the Gospel with a flowchart, a laser pointer, and a military budget. They’ve turned the Gospel into a George Lucas film — there’s a chosen remnant, a hidden map, a space war, a rebuilt temple, and apparently Jesus can’t come back until the Death Star blows up our entire planet. These people don’t follow Jesus — they follow dispensational fan fiction featuring 7 timelines, 12 blood moons, 14 Antichrists, and Ewoks in Tie Fighters patrolling the Valley of Megiddo. It’s not the Gospel of Christ — it’s Scofield Wars: Episode VII – The Return of the Golden Calf.

If anyone believes there’s still a redemptive covenant outside of Christ, then they are the ones mischaracterizing the God of Truth.
Because the moment you place salvation, promise, or inheritance anywhere but the cross —
you’re not preaching faith,
you’re not defending Israel,
you’re denying the Gospel.

And the most tragic part for these people?
They probably don’t even know what Israel is. Hint, it's not a land, it's the Body of Christ.

God doesn’t honor rejection of His Son just to keep a “promise” made under a covenant that Jesus already fulfilled in His own blood.

You call it faithfulness.
But if that promise leads you away from the cross, then it isn’t faith — it’s idolatry.
That’s not my standard — that’s the judgment of God Himself, written in blood at Calvary

 

[marks]

I’m not mocking the idea that God keeps His promises.

Forget about Scofield, you are the only one talking about Scofield.

I'm quoting to you Bible passages that I believe as written, and as given, which you've determined don't actually belong to those to whom they were given. It's OK, we all have our own ideas and opinions, only, I'm just quoting the Bible, and letting you know I believe it as written.

Much love

 

[marks]

If anyone believes there’s still a redemptive covenant outside of Christ,

Don't put false words in my mouth, you only show yourself a liar.

He has made the first obsolete. – Hebrews 8:13
In Christ, all the promises of God are yes and amen. – 2 Corinthians 1:20
If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed. – Galatians 3:29
There is neither Jew nor Gentile... for you are all one in Christ Jesus. – Galatians 3:28

^ How can you continue to ignore this?

Put these all in context, and you should be OK.

The fact is, God never changed Isael to be any other than the children of Jacob, and in particular the believing children of Jacob, AKA the Israel of God, as shown in Romans 9.

When a Jew becomes a Christian, or when a Gentile becomes a Christian, they become children of God, and not with a national identity except in the flesh sense, like, I'm a US citizen. But I'm first a citizen of heaven.

Meanwhile, there is an Israel comprised of the children of Jacob, currently in unbelief. It is to them the promise is made. Not that they will be saved in unbelief, or outside of Christ. They will be saved believing in Christ at the end of the age, exactly as promised, and regathered to their land, every single one of them.

That God's promises are fulfilled in Christ doesn't mean they won't actually happen, they will happen through the person of Christ. Jesus will bring them to belief, Jesus will rescue them in salvation. Not that suddenly God's promise is of no effect!

Much love!

 

[AngelicArcher]

Well...

At least Dispensationalism provided a counterbalance to 18 centuries of antisemitic violence, pogroms, officially sanctioned discrimination against Jews, the Holocaust, et. al. which is the fruit of Replacement Covenant Theology. "By their fruits you will know them..."

I see.

Now,would you please answer my direct question with direct answer?

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Don't put false words in my mouth, you only show yourself a liar.


Put these all in context, and you should be OK.

The fact is, God never changed Isael to be any other than the children of Jacob, and in particular the believing children of Jacob, AKA the Israel of God, as shown in Romans 9.

When a Jew becomes a Christian, or when a Gentile becomes a Christian, they become children of God, and not with a national identity except in the flesh sense, like, I'm a US citizen. But I'm first a citizen of heaven.

Meanwhile, there is an Israel comprised of the children of Jacob, currently in unbelief. It is to them the promise is made. Not that they will be saved in unbelief, or outside of Christ. They will be saved believing in Christ at the end of the age, exactly as promised, and regathered to their land, every single one of them.

That God's promises are fulfilled in Christ doesn't mean they won't actually happen, they will happen through the person of Christ. Jesus will bring them to belief, Jesus will rescue them in salvation. Not that suddenly God's promise is of no effect!

Much love!

You’re accusing me of putting words in your mouth — but I’m not twisting anything. I’m simply pointing out that your theology assumes a redemptive covenant promise still applies to national Israel in unbelief, waiting for a future age to suddenly “click in,” even apart from the Gospel.

You may not say there’s salvation outside of Christ — but your system functions as if there is. And you didn’t get that from Jesus. You didn’t get it from Paul.

You got it from John Nelson Darby, the 19th-century mystic who invented dispensationalism, and from C.I. Scofield, the con man who annotated the King James Bible with Zionist-funded propaganda and sold it as scripture. You got it from Lewis Sperry Chafer, Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, and John Hagee, who built a prophetic empire off flowcharts, fear, and war theology — not the Gospel.

And now, 100 million American Christians are walking around parroting a belief system that never came from Christ. They believe God is still under contract with an ethnic group that rejected His Son, and they’re waiting for World War III to kickstart the second coming — because Scofield told them so. It's a Satanic nightmare, but unfortunately, were all dreaming it together.

He has made the first obsolete. – Hebrews 8:13
In Christ, all the promises of God are yes and amen. – 2 Corinthians 1:20
If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed. – Galatians 3:29
There is neither Jew nor Gentile... for you are all one in Christ Jesus. – Galatians 3:28
Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. – Romans 9:6

I believe these verses as written.
I don’t filter them through Darby’s chart.
I don’t reinterpret them through Scofield’s footnotes.
I don’t delay their fulfillment because some 20th-century televangelist said we need a third temple before Jesus can come back.

You say God keeps His promises?
Amen.
He did.
In Christ.

You say God will save a remnant of Israel?
Yes — the same way He saves everyone else:
By grace, through faith, in the name of Jesus — not by bloodline, not by borders, and not by dispensational detour.

God doesn’t owe anyone anything outside of Christ.
The New Covenant isn’t “coming soon.”
It’s already here — ratified in blood.

So no — I’m not redefining the Gospel.
I’m rejecting the man-made end-times fan fiction that’s been merchandised, politicized, weaponized, and spoon-fed to the Church for the last 100 years.

You can cling to Scofield.
I’ll cling to the cross.

Much Love !

 

[marks]

You can cling to Scofield.

What's with you and Scofield?

You say God will save a remnant of Israel?
Yes — the same way He saves everyone else:
By grace, through faith, in the name of Jesus —

Of course! What ever do you think?

And He will do it at the end of the age, and regather them all to the promised land, every one of them, and then gather the nations to be judged.

— but your system functions as if there is.

Nonsense!

I'll need you to read my posts more carefully, and ask more questions where you don't understand, instead of saying such things, if we are to have a real conversation.

Much love!

 

[marks]

God didn’t forget His covenant — He fulfilled it. In Christ. Completely.

This does not mean He will not do as He says.

Wait and see.

Much love!

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

What's with you and Scofield?


Of course! What ever do you think?

And He will do it at the end of the age, and regather them all to the promised land, every one of them, and then gather the nations to be judged.


Nonsense!

I'll need you to read my posts more carefully, and ask more questions where you don't understand, instead of saying such things, if we are to have a real conversation.

Much love!

Much love!

You’ve made some big claims about a future mass salvation of ethnic Israel, a full regathering to the land, and a separate end-times plan that Jesus will supposedly fulfill later.

So let’s do this plainly:

Please post the clear New Testament scriptures — chapter and verse — that directly support your position.

I’m not asking for vague prophetic allusions or Scofield-style interpretations of Isaiah. I’m asking for explicit New Covenant teaching — from Jesus, Paul, or the apostles — that says:

The children of Jacob will all be saved together at the end of the age

God will regather them to a literal land as part of redemptive fulfillment

These things will happen while they’re still in unbelief, apart from faith in Christ

And that the Church is not the fulfillment of Israel, but merely a temporary "parenthesis"

If your position is scriptural, show me the scriptures that support your Star Wars space opera.

Because if the apostles didn’t teach it — why are you? Do you follow the teachings of Jesus Christ… or of Darby, Falwell, Hagee, and a century of televangelists with laser pointers and red heifer countdowns?

 

[amigo de christo]

Not according to John Calvinism..

Remember heed not that man .

 

[amigo de christo]

You’ve made some big claims about a future mass salvation of ethnic Israel, a full regathering to the land, and a separate end-times plan that Jesus will supposedly fulfill later.

So let’s do this plainly:

Please post the clear New Testament scriptures — chapter and verse — that directly support your position.

I’m not asking for vague prophetic allusions or Scofield-style interpretations of Isaiah. I’m asking for explicit New Covenant teaching — from Jesus, Paul, or the apostles — that says:

The children of Jacob will all be saved together at the end of the age

God will regather them to a literal land as part of redemptive fulfillment

These things will happen while they’re still in unbelief, apart from faith in Christ

And that the Church is not the fulfillment of Israel, but merely a temporary "parenthesis"

If your position is scriptural, show me the scriptures that support your Star Wars space opera.

Because if the apostles didn’t teach it — why are you? Do you follow the teachings of Jesus Christ… or of Darby, Falwell, Hagee, and a century of televangelists with laser pointers and red heifer countdowns?

People would be so much better off
had they simply read the bible for themselves . No foot notes , no etc .
We has many many off teachings and concepts floating all over the place my friend .
You see those four statments in dark black
CHRIST JESUS nor any of the apostels ever once taught that . Rather odd dont ya think .
Paul didnt go around to all them synagogues doing as john haggee and scores of others say or imply .
YOU SEE the true apostels KNEW
OF the absolute dire necessity to BELIEVE JESUS IS THE CHRIST
and That if one , whether jew or gentile, Rejects HIM , WELL its deadly for them .
There is only ONE ISRAEL , ONE JERUSALEM of GOD . Its heavenly
and GOD and the lamb are THE TEMPLE .
Many are gonna wail on the DAY of the LORD for lying to the jews
and to many church folks too .
This is very deadly what i seen some of them men say . I would RUN in the opposite direction
of hagee and scores and scores of others . You see the nar realm , YOU EXPOSE THAT REALM
as well as THE R DOUBLE C
and scores of others playing christian , BUT AINT christain at all . we gots lots of wolves n wool
and they have made much money with best selling books of fables too .

 

[marks]

You’ve made some big claims about a future mass salvation of ethnic Israel, a full regathering to the land, and a separate end-times plan that Jesus will supposedly fulfill later.

So let’s do this plainly:

Please post the clear New Testament scriptures — chapter and verse — that directly support your position.

I’m not asking for vague prophetic allusions or Scofield-style interpretations of Isaiah. I’m asking for explicit New Covenant teaching — from Jesus, Paul, or the apostles — that says:

The children of Jacob will all be saved together at the end of the age

God will regather them to a literal land as part of redemptive fulfillment

These things will happen while they’re still in unbelief, apart from faith in Christ

And that the Church is not the fulfillment of Israel, but merely a temporary "parenthesis"

If your position is scriptural, show me the scriptures that support your Star Wars space opera.

Because if the apostles didn’t teach it — why are you? Do you follow the teachings of Jesus Christ… or of Darby, Falwell, Hagee, and a century of televangelists with laser pointers and red heifer countdowns?

You do! You think that God undercut His promises to Israel.

I don't. I simply believe God when He says something.

Much love!

 

[marks]

You’ve made some big claims about a future mass salvation of ethnic Israel, a full regathering to the land, and a separate end-times plan that Jesus will supposedly fulfill later.

Read the prophecies, and believe what you read.

If you won't, nothing I say will make any difference to you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Matthew 19:28 KJV
And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Here is just one, when will this be fulfilled?

Much love!

 

[Aunty Jane]

What and Where is the "narrow gate"?

Jesus often used contrasts or opposites in his illustrations….and the one in Matt 7:13-14 is a good example.
There are two alternative paths presented to mankind…one leads to everlasting life, and the other to everlasting death. (destruction)

One road is easy, and the other is difficult to travel. Both have a gate….one is wide…the other is narrow.

Now we have a mental picture of what Jesus was teaching. We all have the same choices…..we choose the path that appeals to us. Given that choice, who would take the difficult road if there was an easy way to arrive at the same destination?….right?

That is the pivotal question…..because those traveling the easy road have been convinced that it doesn’t lead to death at all….the devil has posted a sign on the wide gate, saying in effect…. “enter here…this is the road to life”.…sniggering all the while because he knows how to manipulate the thinking of the human race, so flawed now, that he knows they will easily fall for his lies.

This is called “perception management” and it is used by governments and large corporations all over the world to manipulate the thinking of their target audience…..promoting their own agenda or products whilst at the same time denigrating their competitors. There are no new tricks….these are time tested.

For each individual, a choice will be made at some point in their lives to either alter their course, or stay with the comfortable status quo. We saw this clearly with the Jews of the first century…..they had a choice to enter the narrow gate and change course entirely by following Jesus Christ, or to stay on the path that they entered at birth, as a nation dedicated to their God Yahweh. Who did they believe? Who misled them?

What is satan notorious for? Deception and lies….so according to Jesus, in another one of his illustrations, he spoke of a time when the devil would sow seeds of counterfeit Christianity (Matt 13:24-30; 36-43)…..subverting the true faith and using his misinformed minions to lead people down a wrong path.

So this would result in more choices…..so many choices in fact that people are now overwhelmed by them. When Christendom was born in the fourth century, it was just the beginning of the devil’s plan to lead mankind astray. Today, the choices that people are faced with, are ridiculous!….so many are confused, and it’s no wonder that many have ditched religion altogether.

But those who choose a faith unwisely, based on what appeals to them, are telling God who they are and what they want to do with regard to their worship. To choose the right path once exposed to the truth, shows God that we are willing, like Job, to tough it out with the devil constantly standing in our way throughout the journey. That choice would incur the world’s hatred. (John 15:18-21)

But we see that others just want to be called “Christians” (label wearers) without putting in much effort to really learn more than the basics, and who care too much about what others think. Imagine what it was like in a devout Jewish family when a member decided that following Jesus was going to be their choice, and in full knowledge of what that would mean…..

Jesus addressed this situation in Matt 10:34-39…..
”Do not think I came to bring peace to the earth; I came to bring, not peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to cause division, with a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. 36 Indeed, a man’s enemies will be those of his own household. 37 Whoever has greater affection for father or mother than for me is not worthy of me; and whoever has greater affection for son or daughter than for me is not worthy of me. 38 And whoever does not accept his torture stake and follow after me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his soul will lose it, and whoever loses his soul for my sake will find it.”

Under the threat of persecution and even death, the cramped road to life was chosen, and the gate was narrow because entering this course didn’t allow anyone to bring in a lot of baggage…..like when Jesus told the Christians to flee Jerusalem when they saw the enemy forces surrounding the city….he told them not to take their belongings, just themselves. Robbers would no doubt steal their possessions along the way, and do them harm…..and it would slow them down unnecessarily. They had to have faith to leave their old lives, possessions and livelihood behind, and start again in a new place. How much faith would that have required?

The choice to enter the narrow gate was a choice to accept Christ as Messiah…..but the devil was to create another gate…a false one deceptively sign posted….promising that this was the way to life, but it will end in a way the travelers never imagined.
Just a few verses later, Jesus predicted the outcome for the majority who chose the wrong road.

Matt 7:21-23….
”Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of the heavens, but only the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day: ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them: ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’”

No one wants to be on the receiving end of that rejection, but the receivers are shocked by it, offering their excuses because they thought that they were serving God through faith in their “Lord”.….but their excuses will not be accepted.….because of failing to do the will of Jesus’ Father.

In order to do God’s will…we first have to know what it is that he requires of us……most Christians on these boards, concentrate on what God will do for them. Not much thought is given as to what God wants from us.

First and foremost we have to “know the only true God AND the one he sent” (John 17:3) If we do not know the true God but instead worship a substitute, everlasting life will be lost. Who has the devil got the majority worshipping? One who is not Yahweh…a breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20: 3)

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

This does not mean He will not do as He says.

Wait and see.

Much love!

“Wait and see” isn’t theology — it’s deflection.

When Jesus said “It is finished,” He wasn’t bluffing.
When Paul said “In Christ all the promises of God are YES and AMEN,” he wasn’t saying “but only later, after a future land deal.”
When Hebrews 8:13 says “He has made the first [covenant] obsolete,” it’s not followed by “but we’ll bring it back in the last days.”

God did what He said He would do —
He fulfilled the covenant in Christ.
Not delayed it.
Not paused it.
Fulfilled it.

This idea that Jesus needs to come back and fulfill a bunch of Old Covenant terms with unbelieving Israel is not biblical — it’s Scofieldian sci-fi, on par with L. Ron Hubbard.

So no — I won’t “wait and see” for a third temple, a red heifer, and World War III.
I’ll stand on what’s already been done:
The cross.
The resurrection.
The Spirit poured out.
The Kingdom inaugurated.
The New Covenant ratified in His blood.

If you’re still waiting for the Gospel to begin,
you’ve already missed the Kingdom that’s here.

Never has a thread been more appropriately named. Because it’s absolutely true: If you’re a Christian, and you support the modern geopolitical state of Israel as God’s chosen nation, then whether you realize it or not — you are denying that Christ is the Messiah.

Why?

Because if Christ is the Messiah, then He is the fulfillment of every promise made to Israel.

“In Christ, all the promises of God are YES and AMEN.” – 2 Corinthians 1:20
“He has made the first covenant obsolete.” – Hebrews 8:13
“This is My blood of the new covenant.” – Matthew 26:28
“If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed.” – Galatians 3:29

So if you're still clinging to a national covenant tied to a plot of land, to a people who openly reject the Son, you’re not affirming the Gospel — you’re undermining it.

Because supporting an Israel outside of Christ means you believe God still has a covenant apart from the cross. And if that’s true — then Jesus didn’t finish the work.

So let’s be crystal clear:

There is no “Plan B Israel.”
There is no covenant left for those who reject the Son.
There is no salvation in land, flag, bloodline, or temple.
Only in Christ. Only ever.

To support the modern state of Israel as a fulfillment of prophecy is to say, “Christ has not yet fulfilled it.” Which is the same as saying: “He is not the Messiah.”

That’s not my opinion. That’s the clear verdict of the Gospel.

"It is finished" — or it isn’t.
And if you say it isn’t… you’ve already denied Him.

If Jesus Christ ran this forum, He’d probably sticky this thread to save as many misled Christians as possible from your man-made, Scofield-Darby-Falwell-Hagee Star Wars opera of death and blasphemy — the one marching the whole world toward World War III and the extinction of life on Earth. Exactly what Satan wants. This misled, psychotic, Scripture-twisting theology isn’t “prophecy” — it’s the gospel of Satan himself, dragging countless misled Christians straight toward the gates of Hell while convincing them they’re doing the will of God.

It doesn't get any darker..

Do you really think Jesus Christ — the Lamb of God, the Prince of Peace — wants His sheep marching toward World War III to defend a manufactured nation that spits on His name, mocks His cross, denies His resurrection, and says He’s burning in Hell?

You think that’s obedience? That’s not Christianity. That’s blasphemy in a flag-wrapped disguise.

 

[marks]

“Wait and see” isn’t theology — it’s deflection.

No, it's saying, you may not believe now, but you will when you see it.

I'm not deflecting from anything, I've told you why I believe what I believe. You aren't going to be convinced by me, you'll need something much greater, and I'm thinking, the fulfillment itself.

Much love!

 

[marks]

’s Scofieldian sci-fi.

You and Scofield! Living rent free in your mind, as they say.

No. It's the Bible. I believe what I believe because I read the Bible, and believe what I believe. Accept it, reject it, I've said it several times now.

Much love!