Where did the Bible come from? - Shot out of a canon

[St. SteVen]

Did God create us humans because of the fall of the devil ?

My short answer would be; No, I don't think so.
That's an interesting question though.

The angels he created, the sons of God (gods/elohim) were like Him.
But it seems He wanted a representation in the physical creation as well.

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[Ritajanice]

But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

◄ 1 Corinthians 2:14 ►

Audio Cross Study Comm Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. New Living Translation But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. English Standard Version The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. Berean Standard Bible The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Berean Literal Bible But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned

 

[One 2 question]

We

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◄ 1 Corinthians 2:14 ►

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Audio Cross Study Comm Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. New Living Translation But people who aren’t spiritual can’t receive these truths from God’s Spirit. It all sounds foolish to them and they can’t understand it, for only those who are spiritual can understand what the Spirit means. English Standard Version The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. Berean Standard Bible The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. Berean Literal Bible But the natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he is not able to understand them, because spiritually they are discerned

We are given the ability to know truth hidden in the mind of the Almighty All-wise Creator.

No longer are we ignorant of Who He is because His Spirit reveals Him to us. How privileged are we.

 

[ProDeo]

Having said that, I am not into Universalism because there are too much Scripture passages that speak against it. Nevertheless I will share my philosophical pondering (thus no proper exegesis!) about Universalism.

Yes, unfortunately, the scriptures are contradictory concerning the "final judgement".
But you will rarely see a Damnationist challenge an Annihilationist. Why?

I haven't noticed that, but a few months ago I had a big one to show both beliefs have issues. The irony of Annihilation vs Universalism is that both have as spearhead that a loving God does not torture unrepentant people trillion x trillion x trillion of years and beyond.

That's it for now, family business.

 

[ProDeo]

Very good question. I'm glad others are digging deeper. Keep going and it may blow you away as to what you will find.

So many haven't realised that a few humans (Catholic priests/leaders) have pushed the pause/stop button on God's eternal never ending story.

They closed the biblical canon so that no further revelation should be considered. In fact they even forbid people to seek truth outside their book they called the Holy Bible.

Correct, they forbid challenging studies from some of the ECF's but added loads of questionable stuff themselves.

Need to go.

 

[St. SteVen]

I haven't noticed that, but a few months ago I had a big one to show both beliefs have issues. The irony of Annihilation vs Universalism is that both have as spearhead that a loving God does not torture unrepentant people trillion x trillion x trillion of years and beyond.

Caution.
I contend that Annihilation is the gateway drug to full-blown Universalism. - LOL

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[BreadOfLife]

I think having a Bible in print has crippled us from hearing from God directly.

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That's NOT what the Bible teaches us.

In 2 Thess. 2:15 - Paul, writing under the inspiratin of the Holy Spirit, puts Scripture and Oral Tradition on EQUAL ground:
2 Thess 2:15
"Stand firm and hold fast to the Traditions you were taught, whether by an ORAL STATEMENT or by a LETTER from us."

He is stating the imprtance of BOTH the oral ans the written.
When Jesus was being tempted by Satan - He stated in NO unertain terms, "it is written, 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test' (Matt. 4:7).

For YOU to say that the written Word has "crippled" us only illustrates your ignorance of God.

 

[ProDeo]

My short answer would be; No, I don't think so.
That's an interesting question though.

I don't think either, but what if the Lord wanted to throw the devil into the LOF after he rebelled and wanted to overtake God. And the devil accused God of being a tyrant, unloving, unmerciful, not righteous, accusing is his specialty as we know. And God said, I will show that I am not all of that and will create beings in My image and I will give the most precious I have (My Son, a part of Myself, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world) to disproof all your false accusations and then you will go to final destiny after all, the LOF.

And so God shaped the formless earth and created A&E.

 

[ProDeo]

4a Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons and said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth.
4b However, no warning / concept of hell. Why not?

5. No concept of hell in the whole OT, but there is a dawn of hell, the concept of eternal shame in Daniel 12:2 [2nd-century BC]

What warning of hell? (for Noah)
Had they not already been through hell? (global genocide)

The earth opened and people when straight down to the realm of the dead. (Numbers 16:33)
That sounds like hell to me.

Sheol only, not hell burning forever.

I want to check if we can agree on the following, what's the origin of sin?

Answer, free will.

 

[One 2 question]

My short answer would be; No, I don't think so.
That's an interesting question though.

The angels he created, the sons of God (gods/elohim) were like Him.
But it seems He wanted a representation in the physical creation as well.

[

It's challenging for us created beings to think like the Designer/Creator. Maybe impossible unless He gives us a divine revelation or ability to imagine such a task.

How do we start with nothing then imagine something unknown.

If we could imagine something not in existence, a spirit being (angel) for example, how would we go about creating them?

The Creator imagined everything then bought them into existence in its time, in His designated time. This is so beyond my ability to fathom. I wouldn't know where to start, what order to place events so that everything doesn't explode or implode.

Then there is the desired outcomes for each created thing. Throwing billions of chemicals in together and producing that desired outcome. Mind boggling!

Good conclusion, we are fearfully and wonderfully made.

 

[One 2 question]

I don't think either, but what if the Lord wanted to throw the devil into the LOF after he rebelled and wanted to overtake God. And the devil accused God of being a tyrant, unloving, unmerciful, not righteous, accusing is his specialty as we know. And God said, I will show that I am not all of that and will create beings in My image and I will give the most precious I have (My Son, a part of Myself, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world) to disproof all your false accusations and then you will go to final destiny after all, the LOF.

And so God shaped the formless earth and created A&E.

But wouldn't God, Satan's Creator just prove He is a tyrant, unloving, unmerciful, not righteous in designing, creating and using the LOF as Satan's eternal home.

When did the Creator design and create the lake of fire? First? Was this the context for the rest of His creation, what He built everything else around because He desired suffering, more the better.

Maybe like putting on your favourite TV series, getting your popcorn and settling in for some leisure/pleasure time. Movie title- Fry til you Die, but you can't, so burn forever.

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't think either, but what if the Lord wanted to throw the devil into the LOF after he rebelled and wanted to overtake God. And the devil accused God of being a tyrant, unloving, unmerciful, not righteous, accusing is his specialty as we know. And God said, I will show that I am not all of that and will create beings in My image and I will give the most precious I have (My Son, a part of Myself, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world) to disproof all your false accusations and then you will go to final destiny after all, the LOF.

Wouldn't that prove the devil's accusations were true?

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[St. SteVen]

I want to check if we can agree on the following, what's the origin of sin?

Answer, free will.

The fall of humankind. (the transgression of A&E)

Romans 5:12-14 NIV
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given,
but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses,
even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam,
who is a pattern of the one to come.

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[Mindcruiser]

Free will is not considered to be the direct cause of sin. The Bible speaks as sin sourced from disobedience and rebellion against God, not from the existence of free will itself. Free will is seen as a gift that allows humans to make choices, and while it enables the possibility of sinning, it is not the cause of sin. Instead, sin arises from human choices influenced by evil desires, as stated in James 1:13-15.

We have a fallen human nature with a natural desire to want to sin, carnality, and we sin from either the inside or outside of the body.

 

[St. SteVen]

Free will is not considered to be the direct cause of sin. The Bible speaks as sin sourced from disobedience and rebellion against God, not from the existence of free will itself. Free will is seen as a gift that allows humans to make choices, and while it enables the possibility of sinning, it is not the cause of sin. Instead, sin arises from human choices influenced by evil desires, as stated in James 1:13-15.

We have a fallen human nature with a natural desire to want to sin, carnality, and we sin from either the inside or outside of the body.

Well said.
Welcome to the forum.

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[ProDeo]

I don't think either, but what if the Lord wanted to throw the devil into the LOF after he rebelled and wanted to overtake God. And the devil accused God of being a tyrant, unloving, unmerciful, not righteous, accusing is his specialty as we know. And God said, I will show that I am not all of that and will create beings in My image and I will give the most precious I have (My Son, a part of Myself, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world) to disproof all your false accusations and then you will go to final destiny after all, the LOF.

And so God shaped the formless earth and created A&E.

But wouldn't God, Satan's Creator just prove He is a tyrant, unloving, unmerciful, not righteous in designing, creating and using the LOF as Satan's eternal home.

Not if Universalism is true.

Wouldn't that prove the devil's accusations were true?

Not if Universalism is true.

As initially said I don't think either but the same reasoning counts after the devil successfully seduced A&E. God wanting to punish him (I will avoid the word LOF) and satan made his accusations to escape from punishment. Why did the Lord give him playing ground although on a collar?

Why no mentioning of hell ?

Why no warning of trillion x trillion x trillion years of tormenting?

While this is all pure physiological reasoning and likely garbage I can't help to count that as a point in favor of Universalism, it still doesn't make me an Universalist.

 

[ProDeo]

I want to check if we can agree on the following, what's the origin of sin?
Answer, free will.

The fall of humankind. (the transgression of A&E)

Romans 5:12-14 NIV
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—
13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given,
but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.
14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses,
even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam,
who is a pattern of the one to come.

If God had created all His creatures without free will, there would have been no sin.

A bit of Plato logic.

The Cycle of Opposites

The first argument is based on the cyclical interchange by means of which every quality comes into being from its own opposite. Hot comes from cold and cold from hot: that is, hot things are just cold things that have warmed up, and cold things are just hot things that have cooled off. Similarly, people who are awake are just people who were asleep but then woke up, while people who are asleep are just people who were awake but then dozed off.

But then, by analogy, if good exists its opposite evil must exist also.

The devil was created perfect and yet he fell from grace, evil was exposed, the first sin.
A&E were created very good and yet they sinned.

And God said - Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. [Gen 3:22]

Likely referring to the fall of the devil when the loyal heavenly creatures became aware of the existence and opposite of good.

Knowing that God knew everything in advance when He created the devil and A&E, I have new (unanswerable) question, why 2 falls, why not one?

Good luck with that one

OTOH, we have the Scriptures and in there is everything to know for our stay here on Earth.

Deut 29:29 “The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Can't wait for more of His revelations.

 

[St. SteVen]

While this is all pure physiological reasoning and likely garbage I can't help to count that as a point in favor of Universalism, it still doesn't make me an Universalist.

I was thinking about our conversation yesterday when it occurred to me that pealing away the assumptions (second chance, for instance) away from the Damnationist scriptures makes them support Universalism.

This scripture provides no hope for the condemned, unless you believe in God's mercy for the condemned.

John 3:17-18 NIV
For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already
because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

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[St. SteVen]

And God said - Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil. [Gen 3:22]

Likely referring to the fall of the devil when the loyal heavenly creatures became aware of the existence and opposite of good.

Knowing that God knew everything in advance when He created the devil and A&E, I have new (unanswerable) question, why 2 falls, why not one?

Good luck with that one

Why two falls?
One for each realm.

The fall in the spiritual realm preceded the fall in the physical realm.

In the Age of Restoration, all of that will be addressed. Starting with those from the physical realm.

Romans 2:14-16 NIV
(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law,
they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.
15 They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts,
their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them
and at other times even defending them.)
16 This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ,
as my gospel declares.

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[Mindcruiser]

Well said.
Welcome to the forum.

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Thank you. Much appreciated.