I had already had my own ideas, but I was looking for others' ideas, so that it might help me.
Difficulty Reconciling
- Thread starter GracePeace
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Marvelloustime
Well-Known Member
Your idea is not the idea of the OP. If you have an idea for an OP, then post your idea, make a thread of your own.
As for me, my idea was to ask others for their findings.
I was curious. It wasn't necessarily a challenge to others' findings (though I do probe them afterwards), I am genuinely curious about their findings.
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- Aug 10, 2012
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What is "belief?" Is it a thought in our head, a conviction we hold that has little depth?
Or does "belief" mean we need to apply it to our lives.
If I were to say "I believe in gravity," but everywhere I went I had a rope tethering me to the ground, do I really believe in gravity?
Or does "belief" mean we need to apply it to our lives.
If I were to say "I believe in gravity," but everywhere I went I had a rope tethering me to the ground, do I really believe in gravity?
Thank you.
So, would you say that your way of reconciling the two would be that "Yes, you have eternal life when you believe, but, also, once you believe, then you must also do the things that Jesus says, and, in that way, you are simply retaining the eternal life you already have by faith"?
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I believe in a moment of salvation. Which is the imparting of the Holy Spirit, or at least it is at the same time. Once sealed by the Holy Spirit I believe God will see our sanctification through to the end. As we journey through life the Holy Spirit will correct us along the way when we stray. This is all assuming he was with us to begin with.
And when we arrive at our destination we will find out, because not everyone who says to Jesus Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of Heaven.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
The word "by" seems to get a lot of multi-use.
My understanding has always been justification by grace through faith is the means of salvation, and obedience is the fruit.
God doesn't need to see fruit to know we have consented to the work of grace—He looks upon the very heart itself.
The outward appearance, or fruit, if you will, is the only thing man can evaluate to detect a transformed heart and, therefore, the work of grace. This even seems to be indicated in the last verse you quote here—"We know by this..." (1 John 3:24) By what? By the works of commandment-keeping, v. 23.
Am I addressing your question properly?
What used to trip me up a lot is taking short statements conclusively, because of the way they seem to be so conclusively stated in English. I doubt that even modern Hebrew or Greek is spoken that way anymore.
It's easy enough to claim some maxim like "Context is king," but the meanings of some Bible statements are simply not contextual, at least, within the immediate context like "God is love."
And spiritual things are spiritually discerned, while some things simply aren't essentially spiritual, like genealogies, descriptions of events, people, places, etc.
Sorry if I wandered too far off track here.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
In the OP, verses were cited about how eternal life is said to be by faith alone, then, other verses were cited that show eternal life is by works.
Are you saying you agree eternal life is faith alone, and it is by works, also, and your reconciliation of the two is that "The Holy Spirit makes sure we do the good works"? Is this like saying "We have eternal life upon faith, and eternal life does also depend on works, but the works only are retaining that life that was gifted, and the Holy Spirit makes sure that we do those good works so that we retain the gift of eternal life"?
I appreciate it.The word "by" seems to get a lot of multi-use.
My understanding has always been justification by grace through faith is the means of salvation, and obedience is the fruit.
God doesn't need to see fruit to know we have consented to the work of grace—He looks upon the very heart itself.
The outward appearance, or fruit, if you will, is the only thing man can evaluate to detect a transformed heart and, therefore, the work of grace. This even seems to be indicated in the last verse you quote here—"We know by this..." (1 John 3:24) By what? By the works of commandment-keeping, v. 23.
Am I addressing your question properly?
What used to trip me up a lot is taking short statements conclusively, because of the way they seem to be so conclusively stated in English. I doubt that even modern Hebrew or Greek is spoken that way anymore.
It's easy enough to claim some maxim like "Context is king," but the meanings of some Bible statements are simply not contextual, at least, within the immediate context like "God is love."
And spiritual things are spiritually discerned, while some things simply aren't essentially spiritual, like genealogies, descriptions of events, people, places, etc.
Sorry if I wandered too far off track here.
Well, here's the thing : in the OP, I mentioned verses that seem to hinge eternal life on two seemingly mutually exclusive things.
One says if you believe you will have eternal life, the other says if you do the things God wants you will have eternal life.
It may be that you disagree with that--I guess that could be discussed--but if you disagree with it, by definition, you would not have had the opportunity to answer the issue, I think.
Hey You!
Member
It would be Special Pleading to limit reconciling your dilemma to the Book of John and it's Verses in your OP, and not allowing for the Old Testament verses; Jews may be Lurking. Why not accommodate them?
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Hey You!
Member
Do you hold to Lordship Salvation? If not, it seems like you would like it...
An Introduction to Lordship Salvation
What follows is from the Grace Community Church Distinctive on Lordship Salvation . It was adapted from John MacArthur's material on the topic of lordship salvation, and serves as an excellent
www.gty.org
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One thing I think we should settle on--I don't think we disagree on this point--is that the works should not be burdensome, as John says.
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Who says the old testament way of Salvation was not by grace through faith just like new testament times. The sacrifices, the temple, the feasts, everything points to Jesus they just didn't know it. They believed following the commandments was the way to eternal life, but God said to follow the commandments so it will go well for you and your Children. Not so you will be saved. And further it is taught that all have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. And that stumbling on one point of the law breaks the whole law. So it follows that no one was saved by keeping the law, because no one kept the law successfully... Except for Jesus.
But in living the law and keeping it in their heart could some have followed Jesus in ignorance? And then when he visited sheol, wouldn't he have visited Abraham's bussom where the righteous dead stayed until then. And taught them about all that happened.
BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
I don't disagree with that.
I simply say that neither statement is entirely conclusive.
In other words, we are told that we shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God—not just any such word.
I really believe there's no way to escape the paradoxical nature of a supreme being with all that that implies trying to communicate His ways of redemptive atonement to finite, sin-corrupted beings. It is the stuff of atheists' scorn and mockery. Trying to divine it (no pun intended) merely intellectually has been the ruin of countless great thinkers.
With all the love and regard I can muster, the false dilemma logical fallacy we're discussing is by no means confined to the books of John. I can't imagine that this is news to you, as bright and experienced as I've always found you to be, notwithstanding our brief, occasional disagreements.
But I certainly digress.
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BarneyFife
Well-Known Member
@GracePeace
I don't mean to minimize or trivialize your concerns, really, I don't. I've gotten myself worked up over some stuff I'd be embarrassed to admit here.
I don't mean to minimize or trivialize your concerns, really, I don't. I've gotten myself worked up over some stuff I'd be embarrassed to admit here.
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We may be deluded into thinking we are saved, but actually are not. If we have works does that prove we have faith? Perhaps, or perhaps not. I think it is important to consider the motivation behind the work. The key point is that Salvation is not a transaction.
1. It's a perfectly understandable and acceptable answer to just say "It's just paradoxical--we're not God, we're mere men, so we may end up confused when God speaks."I don't disagree with that.
I simply say that neither statement is entirely conclusive.
In other words, we are told that we shall live by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God—not just any such word.
I really believe there's no way to escape the paradoxical nature of a supreme being with all that that implies trying to communicate His ways of redemptive atonement to finite, sin-corrupted beings. It is the stuff of atheists' scorn and mockery. Trying to divine it (no pun intended) merely intellectually has been the ruin of countless great thinkers.
With all the love and regard I can muster, the false dilemma logical fallacy we're discussing is by no means confined to the books of John. I can't imagine that this is news to you, as bright and experienced as I've always found you to be, notwithstanding our brief, occasional disagreements.
2. I think part of my answer is in understanding that God is not in a default angry disposition toward me in the meantime before I do good--ie, part of the question is how God feels about me, and on what basis.
3. 1 Jn 3:23 actually turns the two into a singular command ("And this is His command [singular] : that we believe in the Name of His Son and love one another", such that loving others is faith in Christ, and faith in Christ is loving others, and not believing in Christ is not loving others, and not loving others is not believing in Christ--that the two are one, existing on a continuum.
That's one potential solution.
4. Thanks for the kind words--and I am interested in others' conclusions.
Well, I'm specifically asking about the verses shared in the OP (ie, not about "salvation" in general), and soliciting others' findings if/when they have sought to reconcile them.
It's entirely possible, however, you will argue "there's no issue"; I can accept that as an answer, but that would mean you wouldn't have anything to add to the discussion, bc you wouldn't have had an opportunity to find a way of reconciling the two.
